Ordination and the Disciples

[teresaq]

Were the disciples/apostles ordained by God or man?

[Gregory Matthews]

The leaders who followed the disciples/apostles were ordained by humans.

 

Some would say that the disciple/apostle who replaced Judas was ordained by humans.

[LifeHiscost]

Were the disciples/apostles ordained by God or man?

Here's a good place with links that might be good follow-up.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html

 

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html#ixzz3Kze6k22r

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[teresaq]

 

Here's a good place with links that might be good follow-up.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html

 

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html#ixzz3Kze6k22r

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

I can top that. Try your bible and see what the account says. Those of us who believe EGW was inspired can check her account also.

[LifeHiscost]

I can top that. Try your bible and see what the account says. Those of us who believe EGW was inspired can check her account also.

I found a number of places in the bible where the word ordination specifically was used but found no place in the new testament. Would that have any significance of a possible change of how leadership was determined before or after Jesus' coming the first time to this earth?

 

 

 

That the disciples of Christ might be prepared for the great work which they were to do, Jesus had instructed them to tarry in Jerusalem until they should be endowed with power from on high. On the day of Pentecost, as they were assembled together, and with one accord were seeking for the fulfillment of his promise, the Spirit of God descended, and the hearts of those who believed were filled with the Holy Ghost. The most signal evidence of the power of God was manifested, and thousands were converted in a day. Our Saviour has provided that those who go forth to fulfill his commission of preaching the gospel to the world, shall not go without the divine unction. He has said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” If men would come to God and make an entire surrender to him in full assurance of faith, they would have grace to do the great work committed to them.

  {ST June 9, 1890, par. 5}

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!  

[Gregory Matthews]

In post # 3, Life refers us to a URL that seems to talk about Biblical ordination.  I checked the 1st two references (Acts 7:10 and Matthews 24:45) that the article gave.  I checked in both the NKJV and the NIV.  In neither case did those verses contain the word "ordain."

 

At that point I stopped checking.  Perhaps there is some other translation that does contain the word "ordain."  I do not know.  In any case, it seems to me that the reference that Life cited and the article is lacking in Biblical support.

[LifeHiscost]

In post # 3, Life refers us to a URL that seems to talk about Biblical ordination.  I checked the 1st two references (Acts 7:10 and Matthews 24:45) that the article gave.  I checked in both the NKJV and the NIV.  In neither case did those verses contain the word "ordain."

 

At that point I stopped checking.  Perhaps there is some other translation that does contain the word "ordain."  I do not know.  In any case, it seems to me that the reference that Life cited and the article is lacking in Biblical support.

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God....Romans 13

 

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13

 

It appears that the word ordained is interchangeable with the word appointed, and I would suggest if someone in the body of Christ is appointed to a position, whether man or woman, if it is a leader led of the Holy Spirit that made the appointment, that person chosen is ordained/appointed by Divine authority according to the Word.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[teresaq]

Life, do you know whether or not the 12 disciples who walked with Christ were ordained by God, or by man, or at all?

[Gregory Matthews]

Life's suggestion that "appoint" & "ordain" may have the same meaning:  My response would be that your comment is a valid comment that in actual fact is neither totally correct nor totally incorrect.

 

The Hebrew and Greek words that are translated  in the Bible as "appoint" or "ordain" number more than a dozen.   Some of those words have been translated into both "appoint" and "ordain," while other words have only been translated into one of them. So, Life, your comment is a valid one for consideration.  What your comment does is to establish what I have often said:  Context, context, context.  The Biblical meaning is often established by context.

 

My suggestion is that sometimes the words "appoint" and "ordain" may be interchanged.  However, at other times they cannot be interchanged and they have different meanings.

 

In application, I will suggest that  in the context of religious leadership in the early Christian there were some people who were appointed but not ordained.

[LifeHiscost]

Life, do you know whether or not the 12 disciples who walked with Christ were ordained by God, or by man, or at all?

This is the way it is described from five different translations and I see no good reason to contest either point of view. Since it is mainly newer translations that use the word "appointed " as opposed to "ordained" I personally lean toward the earlier translations as it is looked at by some that personal agendas were influential in the later translation wording used.

 

 

      13And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach, 15and to have authority to cast out the demons. 16And He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter), 17and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder”); 18and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot; 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.....Mark 3:14 NASB

 

.13And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 16And Simon he surnamed Peter; 17And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, 19And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house....Mark 3:14 KJV

 

13Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve^a that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him....Mark 3:14 ???

 

13And He goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto Him whom He would; and they came unto Him. 14And He ordained twelve, that they should be with Him, and that He might send them forth to preach, 15And to have authority {power} to heal sicknesses, and to cast out demons {devils}; 16And Simon He surnamed Peter; 17And James, the son of Zebedee, and John, the brother of James; and He surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder; 18And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon, the Canaanite, 19And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him; and they went into an house....Mark 3:14 KJVP

 

13And he goeth up upon a mountain, and calleth to him whom he would: and they came to him. 14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out demons. 16And Simon he surnamed Peter. 17And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, (and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, Sons of thunder,) 18And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Canaanite, 19And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him: and they went into a house.

Mark 3:14 WBT

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[teresaq]

This is the way it is described from two different translations and I see no good reason to contest either point of view.

 

  New American Standard Bible

And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach....Mark 3:14

 

King James Bible

And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach....Mark 3:14

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

OK....so who "appointed"/ordained them? God? Humans?  How does the text read to you? 

 

You do realize, Life, that this topic has nothing to do with ordination itself, right? It has to do with exactly what the OP question asks....

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is what the SDABC says on the 14th verse that Life has referenced above:

 

 

 

Ordained.  Greek. poieo, literally, "to make," that is "to appoint."  athough it is true that Jesus actually "ordained" the twelve upon this occasion (see DA 296), this meaning is not implicit in the Greek word poieo.

 

Here is the comment on that verse in the Andrews Study Bible:

 

 

 

appointed.  Literally, "made."  Some translations interpret this as "ordained."   

[LifeHiscost]

OK....so who "appointed"/ordained them? God? Humans?  How does the text read to you? 

 

You do realize, Life, that this topic has nothing to do with ordination itself, right? It has to do with exactly what the OP question asks....

These two translations seem to answer that clearly although on the one hand "he" is used uncapitalized, while on the other hand the name "Jesus" is specific. Those discrepancies are the major reason I'm satisfied, either there were normal human biases or at the worst, personal agendas making it easy to adopt the position that it takes only a necessarily learned religious scholar to maintain the Truth as it is in Jesus.

The four scriptures on the bottom, I'm satisfied, allows any supposed contradiction to be laid to rest without debate for the true disciple, as opposed to the wolf/goat in sheep's clothing.

And I would also like to add, this is clear only to those who see Jesus as very God.

 

…29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."  

 

Beautiful promise for all of the family of God.

 

.13And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. 14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: 16And Simon he surnamed Peter; 17And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, 19And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house....Mark 3:14 KJV

 

13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve^a that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him....Mark 3:14 ???

 

…12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…John 16

 

…16So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.…John 7

 

31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.…Matthew 25

 

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[teresaq]

Life appears to be trolling this thread. I have tried to redirect him from his apparent agenda to the actual question to little or not avail. He still  throws irrelevant texts and thoughts at people. If I could delete the thread and subsequent nonsense for the most part, I would. Facebook excels in that it gives that option to the person posting. LOL

[LifeHiscost]

Life appears to be trolling this thread. I have tried to redirect him from his apparent agenda to the actual question to little or not avail. He still  throws irrelevant texts and thoughts at people. If I could delete the thread and subsequent nonsense for the most part, I would. Facebook excels in that it gives that option to the person posting. LOL

I'm sure there are many religious individuals that adopt the attitude that anothers' contribution is irrelevant when they find no personal understanding of its' relevancy. That's why I use Scripture to explain my position, for when it is not understood to be relevant to the reader, that only means understanding is lacking to that reader, not necessarily relevancy to the subject being discussed.

 

11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.....Isaiah 55

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[teresaq]

Trolling is when a person continuously posts irrelevant thoughts to the topic of a thread. God does not troll. Period.

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

 

I agree!!! exclamation. I didn't say the below except for recognizing Who God is.

 

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forum troll

Someone who gets pleasure by typing annoying/controversial/offensive words at strangers on internet forums, for them to read.

person 1:can someone tell me how to do this?

troll: you're stupid, i hope you're not as ugly as you are stupid, then you will have problems

by igotgame June 08, 2005

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=forum+troll

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[teresaq]

Hmmmmm.......you wanted to say something Life?

troll: you're stupid, i hope you're not as ugly as you are stupid, then you will have problems

by igotgame June 08, 2005

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

 

[teresaq]

So now back to the real topic...maybe?

 

Who ordained the disciples? Man as in the church? or God?

[LifeHiscost]

So now back to the real topic...maybe?

 

Who ordained the disciples? Man as in the church? or God?

http://www.formypeople.org/En/index.shtml

 

It's possible this information above might help to answer your question. The 5th and 6th episode is especially where it starts to get interesting, and since it seems to directly corroborate prophetic utterances it isn't a surprise.

 

If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? 7Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.Amos 3...

 

…3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;…1 Thess 5

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[teresaq]

Since Gregory Matthews is the only one who responded according to the OP I will give my thoughts as to what the bible text seems to say.

 

• Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach ,

seems to be obvious that it was not a church that ordained them which means the ordination of the disciples could not be used as any kind of example as to who God deems should be ordained by the church. In fact, Ellen White comes closer to the ordination of the disciples, than any subsequent acknowledgments of the church.