"Holy Father" justified by Catholics

[Robert]

Why do Catholics call the pope the "Holy Father," if the Bible says only Persons of the Trinity may be called holy?

Full Question:

According to the Bible, only God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit merit the designation "holy." Yet on innumerable occasions Catholics refer to the pope as the "Holy Father." Kindly provide a rational explanation for this blasphemy.

Answer:

Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

[Robert]

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

My reply:

1] We are holy only "in Christ Jesus". Christ is in heaven. Therefore what is holy is there with Him. In Him we have a new creation. See Eph 2:4-6.

2] The Pope is not the head of church on earth. This is blasphemy. Christ is the head of the church. Hence the Pope is anti-Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

9.And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven....Matt 23

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Sojourner]

The reason is that they consider the history and tradition of the RCC to be comparable and above Scripture, including any directions given by the Pope who they consider to be "the vicar of Christ". Whilst many Christian groups are Sola Scripture, the RCC are not and are quite open about the reasons as to why they are not. 

[Robert]

I noticed that someone on this forum said Catholic bashing was going on. To this I would say "no". Pope bashing is going on. Why?

The New York Catholic Catechism, under: Pope, says,

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by one, God himself on earth."

[Robert]

Good debate on Pope's authority or lack there of....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpeiCu7g6vI

 

Clearly the Papacy is "power hungry".  This attribute is of Satan.  Absolute power does what?

 

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I noticed that someone on this forum said Catholic bashing was going on. To this I would say "no". Pope bashing is going on. Why?

The New York Catholic Catechism, under: Pope, says,

Quote

Sorry. There is NO SUCH THING as the "New York Catholic Catechism"...

There are so many misquotes and outright lies from false sources on the beliefs of the Catholic church. It doesn't do anything for the credibility of anyone to perpetrate such things. Moreover, it creates a miasma of distrust and phoniness...

[Robert]

Sorry. There is NO SUCH THING as the "New York Catholic Catechism"...

There are so many misquotes and outright lies from false sources on the beliefs of the Catholic church. It doesn't do anything for the credibility of anyone to perpetrate such things. Moreover, it creates a miasma of distrust and phoniness...

It has been claimed that no such book exists (kinda true). There is NO book titled the New York Catechism.

However, there is a book titled The Catholic Catechism, written by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri. Printed by P.J. Kenedy & Sons, 12 Barclay Street, New York. On the page which contains the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur shows the names of Msgr. Arthur J. Scanlan and Patrick Cardinal Hayes. When reviewing the book the former was the rector of St. Joseph's Seminary, the major seminary of the Archdiocese of New York, and the latter as is prominently listed under his name was the Archbishop of New York. Then, underneath both of them it says "New York, July 16, 1932".

Boettner then refers to The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparrias the New York Catechism(not the proper title).

In the The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri language is used similar to what Boettner claims. However, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth" is NOT an exact quote, but a compilation of several statements throughout the book (including footnotes).

Now was Boettner being dishonest when he said New York Catechism(The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri) calls the Pope, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth." Possible, since it appears that no such exact quote exists.

However, Boettner claims that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri makes several references throughout the entire book that shows (at least in Boettner's opinion) that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri teaches-

That the Pope is the arbiter of the world

That the Pope is the supreme judge of heaven and earth

That the Pope is the judge of all, being judged by no one

That the Pope is God Himself on earth

[Robert]

Peter and his successors (the Pope) have power to impose laws both preceptive and prohibitive, power likewise to grant dispensation from these laws, and, when needful, to annul them. It is theirs to judge offences against the laws, to impose and to remit penalties. This judicial authority will even include the power to pardon sin. For sin is a breach of the laws of the supernatural kingdom, and falls under the cognizance of its constituted judges. The gift of this particular power, however, is not expressed with full clearness in this passage. It needed Christ's words (John 20:23) to remove all ambiguity.

 

Further, since the Church is the kingdom of the truth, so that an essential note in all her members is the act of submission by which they accept the doctrine of Christ in its entirety, supreme power in this kingdom carries with it a supreme magisterium — authority to declare that doctrine and to prescribe a rule of faith obligatory on all.  [Catholic Encyclopedia] http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

[Robert]

" The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One , cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole people’s supernatural discernment in matters of faith when "from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful" they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of people but truly the word of God. ."Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium § 12.

For in virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he can always exercise this power freely." Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium § 22.

[Robert]

And let's not forget Paul:

 

2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

 

 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the 2nd coming) will not come unless the falling away comes first (the great apostasy), and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

However, Boettner claims that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri makes several references throughout the entire book that shows (at least in Boettner's opinion) that The Catholic Catechism, by Pietro Cardinal Gasparri teaches-

That the Pope is the arbiter of the world

That the Pope is the supreme judge of heaven and earth

That the Pope is the judge of all, being judged by no one

That the Pope is God Himself on earth

 

Boettner had a right to his opinion, but he never provided citations to back up his claims.

 

And btw, you'd do better to write something from your own research, rather than copy and paste from another website....

[Robert]

Sounds like you are Catholic Apologist? 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sounds like you are Catholic Apologist? 

 

not particularly... I just happen to value research integrity, and am not prone to accepting any and all manner of unsupported statements..

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, the issue here is integrity and honesty.

 

The post reflects 2nd hand sources and a failure to properly quote in context.

 

This is an issue that I have addressed many times:  People cite sources that are not primary and when checked are taken out of context.  That simply reflects integrity issues and/or poor scholarship.

 

To suggest that Pam is a Catholic Apologist amounts to a personal attack  (In this forum and coming from you I can not believe you intended it to be a positive statement.).

 

In addition, it appears that the original source is over 80 years old.  When discussing present issues, as opposed to historical issues, it is far better to use present sources rather than some 80+ year-old document.

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

The post reflects 2nd hand sources and a failure to properly quote in context.

Maybe the "failure to properly quote in context" would be more properly applied if sola scriptura were used to show that was the way God wanted His principles to be revealed. Because one hasn't the spiritual insight to understand the principles involved that someone else presents, has little bearing on what is Truth.

 

12He will say to them, "This is a place for comfort. This is a place of rest for those who are tired. This is a place for them to rest." But they weren't willing to listen.

13The LORD speaks utter nonsense to them. That is why they will fall backwards. That is why they will be hurt, trapped, and captured.

14So hear the word of the LORD, you foolish talkers who rule the people in Jerusalem.

15You say, "We made a treaty with death and an agreement with the grave. When the overwhelming disaster passes by, it won't matter to us, because we have taken refuge in our lies, and falsehood is our hiding place."

16This is what the Almighty LORD says: I am going to lay a rock in Zion, a rock that has been tested, a precious cornerstone, a solid foundation. Whoever believes [in him] will not worry.

17I will make justice a measuring line and righteousness a plumb line. Hail will sweep away your refuge of lies, and floodwaters will wash away your hiding place.

18Your treaty with death will be wiped away. Your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming disaster passes by, you will be trampled by it.

19Each time it passes by it will take you. It will pass by morning after morning, during the day and during the night. Understanding this message brings only terror.

20The bed is too short to stretch out on. The blanket is too narrow to serve as a cover.

21The LORD will rise as he did on Mount Perazim. He will wake up as he did in Gibeon Valley. He will do his work, his unexpected work, and perform his deeds, his mysterious deeds.

22Now stop laughing, or your chains will be tightened, because I have heard that the Almighty LORD of Armies has finally determined to destroy the whole land.

23Open your ears, and listen to me! Pay attention, and hear me!

24Does a farmer go on plowing every day so he can plant? Does he continue to break up the soil and make furrows in the ground?

25When he has smoothed its surface, doesn't he scatter black cumin seed and plant cumin? Doesn't he plant wild wheat in rows? Doesn't he put barley in its own area and winter wheat at its borders?

26God will guide him in judgment, and his God will teach him.... Isaiah 28

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

God my want His principles to be revealed, but I doubt that God wants them revealed by a lack of integrity in citation and poor reporting.

 

Yes, lack of spiritual insight has little bearing on what is truth.  But a lack of truth in reporting does have bearing as to whether or not the message is from God.

[Robert]

To suggest that Pam is a Catholic Apologist amounts to a personal attack  (In this forum and coming from you I can not believe you intended it to be a positive statement.).

 

 

That's ludicrous.  I have no idea about Pam's background.  I don't know her religious views....So it wasn't an attack, but an observation. In fact I feel like you are biased towards me (see your own words in parentheses) and that borders on a personal attack against me.....

 

Now, back to subject.

 

Does the Pope allow himself to be addressed as "Holy Father"?  The answer is "yes".  This can be found on any Catholic website or is this incorrect too?

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert:  My perception of you is that you would never  consider the term "Catholic Apologist" to be a positive attribute as applied to anyone else.  If my perception is wrong, feel free to clarify it.  Feel free to t ell me that you consider that term to be a positive attribute.   When you do that I will thank you for setting me straight.

 

You say that you no idea as to the background of Pam.  O.K.  How is it then your were able to tell us that she sounded like one?  O.K.  You did not say that she was one.  You only said that she sounded like one.  Your point is well taken.  I acknowledge it.  There is a difference between saying that one sounds like something and in saying that one actually is something.

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert:  As to your question as to whether or not the Pope allows people to call him the Holy Father:  That answer is yes.  Anyone who has much knowledge about the Roman catholic Church knows that the answer is yes.

 

You have not been challenged in this thread, as to that answer.

 

You have been challenged as to your reference to the New York Catholic Catechism.  As has been pointed out by Pam and partially acknowledged by you, your reference amounted to poor scholarship and potential falsity of citations.

 

You respond to Pam by telling us that she sounded like a Catholic Apologist.

 

Robert, you have the intellect, as I perceive you, to do much better in scholarship and in your use of source material.  If I am holding you to a high standard, it is only because I believe that you are capable of such.   Live up to your potential.

[Robert]

Robert:  My perception of you is that you would never  consider the term "Catholic Apologist" to be a positive attribute as applied to anyone else.  If my perception is wrong, feel free to clarify it.  Feel free to t ell me that you consider that term to be a positive attribute.   When you do that I will thank you for setting me straight.

 

I'm not a fan of anyone who defends Catholicism, but that's his or her business.

 

I will, however, endeavor to check my sources as Pam pointed out.

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, I see you as holding "truth"  as a high value.

 

"Truth" may lead us to defend one whom we see as an enemy against falsehood.

 

There are many things that are said against the Roman Catholic Church that are accurate and there are those that are false and there are others that are part true and may be based upon ignorance.

 

Let me illustrate:

 

As a VA hospital chaplain a Roman Catholic monthly magazine was distributed to people who wanted to read it.  I would often turn to a column where people would ask questions about the Roman Catholic faith and practice and the questions and answers would be published.  One month a woman wrote in and asked:  I consider myself to be a committed Catholic.  However, I do not believe that Doctrine X is true.  Can I continue to be considered a faithful Catholic and continue to reject Doctrine X.  The priest began his answer by telling of the historical development of Doctrine X and how it became a teaching of the  Roman Catholic Church.  Then he went on to say that  Doctrine X was not considered to be essential to salvation and he stated that Doctrine X is rejected by some Roman Catholic scholars and clerics.  In his concluding statement he told the woman that she could continue to be considered a faithful Roman Catholic and regardless of whether or not she accepted Doctrine X.

 

Well, on that basis, If someone comes to this forum and stated that one must accepted Doctrine X to be considered a faithful Roman Catholic I will know that the person posting that simply does not understand the Roman Catholic Church.   That is ignorance, not an intent to deceive.

 

Robert, the Roman Catholic Church has a central core of belief that is considered to be a requirement for all.  But, in actuality that core is  narrow.  Belief and practice differs among the Orders and it has cultural differences.  And it has teachings that are not a requirement for membership.

[Robert]

It is the Papacy that I object to, not Catholics per se.  My attack, if you will, is against "His Holiness"!

[LifeHiscost]

Robert, the Roman Catholic Church has a central core of belief that is considered to be a requirement for all.  But, in actuality that core is  narrow.  Belief and practice differs among the Orders and it has cultural differences.  And it has teachings that are not a requirement for membership.

OTOH, there is a core belief of one of two churches which will soon come in direct conflict with the other, and neither will yield their core belief to the other, the one because it has a self described divine right to sovereignty on the pain of death to those who refuse to accept that belief. Those who do accept that forcefully imposed threat will lose all promise of eternal life, notwithstanding the logic that would lead to yield.

 

2And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:....Rev 15

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Many SDA's revere EGW as if she were our own little pope - infallible in everything she wrote. How is that different than the pope?

 

As a former Roman Catholic. I have many current Catholic friends and family - including priests and nuns - that do not accept the infallibility of the pope - even when he speaks ex-cathedra.  The current Catholic Church is vastly different from the pre-Vatican 2 church.  Most (if not all) catholic bashing "documentation" comes from arcane, pre-Vatican 2 sources.

 

For example, Catholic are no longer required to give their private confession to a priest at least once per year.  Non-Catholics are allowed to receive communion.  Most of the priests I know readily acknowledge that only God can forgive sins.  I know devout Catholics that (IMHO) will be in front of me (and many other SDA's) in the line to receive their crowns.  Pope Francis seems like the most open-minded pope since John XXIII.

 

The titles "father", sister", "brother" originated as a recognition that we are all family, not out of a demand for respect.  Although I don't call him as such, I consider the man who introduced me to the Sabbath and the mortality of the soul to be a "spiritual father" as such.

 

If I sound like a Catholic apologist - good!  That's what I mean to sound like; and I will take it as a compliment.  I will stick up for any group of believers that accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and work for the good of people in general.