Cast Out Of Heaven

January 14, 2015

The following quote from the book, Great Controversy, applies to the future, but could the principle be applied to the past as well? To Lucifer and his angels?

"A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." (GC p.542.)

Is it possible that this represents the 'mechanics' of how the Devil was "cast out" of heaven? Is God's mode of warfare so much higher than man's way, so as to make it almost unrecognisable as "war"? We naturally associate "war" with force and aggression, but is that God's way too?

Heaven's "purity, holiness, and peace would be [AND FINALLY WAS] torture to them. The glory of God would be [AND WAS] a consuming fire. They would long to flee [AND DID FLEE] from that holy place."

January 14, 2015

That is how I understand it. Now while Milton in Paradise Lost has the casting out before the creation of the world, and Mrs. White (while not saying that it happened at that time, describes it before going on to the creation of the world), I've heard in some sermons and classroom lectures and a chapter in the old "Sanctuary and Atonement" where it's been pointed out that Revelation has it occurring when Jesus ascended after his crucifixion. They have also pointed out how Mrs. White placed the cross as the point where the universe, with the exception of mankind, have closed their probation.

So as Jesus arose and ascended and the angels had sealed their commitment to him and the demons sealed their commitment against him, thus heaven no longer had room for them and became a place where they did not feel at home, and the other planets no longer had people who could be deceived and there was no place else but earth for him to come to.

January 14, 2015

The story in the Book of Job tells of Satan making an appearance in the Heavenly Court as the representative of Earth. He claimed Earth as his kingdom. This seems to have happened long AFTER the creation of mankind.

January 15, 2015

Greetings Stewart (SDA),

To Lucifer and his angels?

Is it possible that this represents the 'mechanics' of how the Devil was "cast out" of heaven? Is God's mode of warfare so much higher than man's way, so as to make it almost unrecognisable as "war"? We naturally associate "war" with force and aggression, but is that God's way too?

Another view of Isaiah 14 is that Lucifer is referring to the King of Babylon. Another view of Revelation 12 is that this is symbolic language describing the overthrow of the Pagan Roman system by Constantine.

Kind regards
Trevor

January 16, 2015

That is how I understand it. Now while Milton in Paradise Lost has the casting out before the creation of the world, and Mrs. White (while not saying that it happened at that time, describes it before going on to the creation of the world), I've heard in some sermons and classroom lectures and a chapter in the old "Sanctuary and Atonement" where it's been pointed out that Revelation has it occurring when Jesus ascended after his crucifixion. They have also pointed out how Mrs. White placed the cross as the point where the universe, with the exception of mankind, have closed their probation.

So as Jesus arose and ascended and the angels had sealed their commitment to him and the demons sealed their commitment against him, thus heaven no longer had room for them and became a place where they did not feel at home, and the other planets no longer had people who could be deceived and there was no place else but earth for him to come to.

So basically, Kevin, you can agree that [at some point] Michael led His loyal angels in a warfare in which they literally overcame evil with good?

I agree that there was no other place in the universe where Satan and his angels could go. (Except perhaps that they could abide in the "great deep", which I suspect may have been interstellar space. The demon that spoke with Jesus among the Gadarenes prayed that they would not have to go there).

This world (in my opinion) was the only place that had NOT been directly affected by the war in heaven, and where final decisions had not been made by the inhabitants.

January 16, 2015

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he

leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.” – GC 36

January 16, 2015

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he

leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.” – GC 36

Yes indeed, Robert !

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

No-one can ever mock God, because the consequences of a man's rejection will eventually overtake him.

God is NOT the executioner. I do not believe that God will enact a "public execution" even when Satan and 'the sands of the sea' come against the city of God. But the Almighty says, in effect, "Do not come near to Me [unprepared], lest you die" -- just as He had said to Nadab, Abihu, and Aaron.

Many do not understand the danger of fighting against God. God does not say, "If you don't do what I want you to do, then I will kill you", no, no. But rather, "if you fight against Me you will destroy yourselves."

"God destroys no man..." I suspect that you know the quotes I am drawing from.

January 16, 2015

The poet/philosopher Eli Siegel pointed out that "All beauty is a making one of opposites."

I have written about my understanding of hell fire several times and it is late and I need to sleep. God does kill, however the issue is how he kills. He treats all of us the same. He is the consuming fire. He is the ever lasting burning fire, it is the fire of his love and beauty.

We all of us have two attitudes fighting inside of us. Our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. A disposition to esteem our selves more highly then our breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit.

Fighting this is that our deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as he has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts.

When we see Jesus at the end in person, as we see the Father in all his glory it will be the beauty that all the beauty we know are but dim reflections of. Grace is irresistible. It is either heaven or hell to be with this beauty. For those of us who have been yielding to the Holy Spirit it becomes heaven. But for the others, they are also overwhelmingly attracted to Jesus. They want to come and be with him and other loved ones in the city. However they see their sins in contrast to the purity of Jesus and see the ugliness of their sins. Unlike the saved who respond to this by casting their crowns and sing "Worthy is the Lamb" the lost are not forgiving people and thus cannot comprehend that God can forgive them. As Jesus says, the only reason why they are lost is because the are afraid to come to the light for fear of their deeds being exposed. They want to come but refuse to. Grace is irresistible. It is in God's nature to love and forgive. It is in the Holy Spirit's nature to point to the beauty and joy of Jesus, doing everything short of forcing the will. But the lost have destroyed their will and are slaves to their feelings that God would get them if their deeds are to be exposed so the fear to come to him. However they are still overwhelmed by his beauty and their longing to be with and like him. Grace is irresistible, you cannot exist resisting it. You have to either yield to it or you are unable to exist. The intensity of wanting to come but refusing to and trading the joys of heaven for the pleasure of complaining and criticizing and blaming and making excuses causes them to quite literally be ripped apart.

God is both active and passive in the death of the wicked. It is a oneness of opposites as God's act that kills the lost is the same thing that makes heaven heaven for the saved. God treats us all the same, but there are the two different responses. For God to not to kill the wicked, he would simply not need to show himself. It is the act of his showing himself that makes it heaven or hell.

January 16, 2015

So basically, Kevin, you can agree that [at some point] Michael led His loyal angels in a warfare in which they literally overcame evil with good?

I agree that there was no other place in the universe where Satan and his angels could go. (Except perhaps that they could abide in the "great deep", which I suspect may have been interstellar space. The demon that spoke with Jesus among the Gadarenes prayed that they would not have to go there).

This world (in my opinion) was the only place that had NOT been directly affected by the war in heaven, and where final decisions had not been made by the inhabitants.

You might like this link:

http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

January 17, 2015

Hi Stewart, It's good to hear from you.

Hi Kevin H, You are right when you point out that we need to consider that the "casting out" could occur on more than one occasion.

The first was before the creation as EGW tells us and at that time the loyal angels accepted God's word, and then the lessson book began with the creation.

There was a second "casting out" at the cross when they SAW God's word in action as Satan tried to get his minions to kill the Son of God.

And there will be another one when redeemed humanity also casts him out of their lives forever. :smiley:

January 17, 2015

The story in the Book of Job tells of Satan making an appearance in the Heavenly Court as the representative of Earth. He claimed Earth as his kingdom. This seems to have happened long AFTER the creation of mankind.

The heavenly court did not have to be IN heaven. Consider the possibility of a roving meeting place. Then Satan could have attended at any time after his defection.

January 17, 2015

Don't forget, it is John Milton where we get the cast out of heaven before the creation of the world. It is the Bible (Revelation 12) that places it at Jesus' ascension.

January 18, 2015

I believe that Rev. alludes to future events, not the distant past. Thus, in the future in the skies above us, a war of conquest is fought in which spacecraft are shot down. There is no mythical place called "heaven". The word used in scripture refers to sky, above, or space. Those who dwell in "heaven" are either in some type of spacecraft, starship city, or another world circling another star.

January 18, 2015

You might like this link:

http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

Thanks Robert, Yes I do like that link. I am familiar with the ideas, and the book "Light on the Dark Side of God."

I also believe that God is "holy, harmless, and undefiled". (Heb 7:26 kjv). Oh that we might be able to have this said about us!

January 19, 2015

You might like this link:

http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

Thank you Robert. Light on the Dark side of God is an important book. M. M. Campbell work is the most balanced of the "God does not kill" view. Now I have to confess I see this book and this view as about half of the truth. However is in a very important half that most people have overlooked.

January 20, 2015

Thank you Robert. Light on the Dark side of God is an important book. M. M. Campbell work is the most balanced of the "God does not kill" view. Now I have to confess I see this book and this view as about half of the truth. However is in a very important half that most people have overlooked.

Kevin, please could you clarify a little bit?

If 'Light on the Dark Side of God' represents about half the truth [in this area], how do you see the remainder?

Do you understand that God will eventually remove His Love "hat", in order to put on His Justice "hat"?

January 20, 2015

That is the problem. People see it as two different hats. All beauty is the making one of opposites. God does one act, one very active act. For some this act is heaven, for others it is hell. In a very real sense God loves them to death. Graham Maxwell pointed out to me that Campbell's work is excellent but has God too passive. Of course the others have God too active. There is a oneness of opposites that we need to see on this topic.

January 20, 2015

I believe that Rev. alludes to future events, not the distant past. Thus, in the future in the skies above us, a war of conquest is fought in which spacecraft are shot down. There is no mythical place called "heaven". The word used in scripture refers to sky, above, or space. Those who dwell in "heaven" are either in some type of spacecraft, starship city, or another world circling another star.

And you base your conclusions on what source? Obviously they do not originate from the Creator.

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

January 22, 2015

And you base your conclusions on what source?

My interpretations are based on the scriptures, but without the blinders of religion.

January 22, 2015

My interpretations are based on the scriptures, but without the blinders of religion.

re·li·gion

rəˈlijən/

noun

noun: religion

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More

sect, church, cult, denomination

"the freedom to practice their own religion"
a particular system of faith and worship.

plural noun: religions

"the world's great religions"

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

"consumerism is the new religion"

Placing one's self as more competent than a Supernatural Creator has one certain end. Hope you find it more reasonable to place your confidence in Him.

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

January 22, 2015

Placing one's self as more competent than a Supernatural Creator has one certain end. Hope you find it more reasonable to place your confidence in Him.

I am not understanding your logic and conclusions.

Belief in the supernatural tends to result in gullibility and effects-without-a-cause magical thinking. Belief in the technological might of our Creator has nothing to do with someone's supposedly "superior" competence. On the contrary, our Creator has left clues to our physics-and-technology-based reality in the scriptures which are universally suppressed by brainwashed victims of religion, that is, organized groups of like-minded people whose distorted beliefs and practices are mostly man-made and riddled with magical thinking, myths, and superstitions.

Jacob, Moses, David, Ezekiel, Isaiah and others were all given a brief glimpse of YHVH's amazing flying machines, but the darkness of religion comprehends it not, keeping its slaves imprisoned in shackled ignorance.

January 22, 2015

I am not understanding your logic and conclusions.

Belief in the supernatural tends to result in gullibility and effects-without-a-cause magical thinking. Belief in the technological might of our Creator has nothing to do with someone's supposedly "superior" competence. On the contrary, our Creator has left clues to our physics-and-technology-based reality in the scriptures which are universally suppressed by brainwashed victims of religion, that is, organized groups of like-minded people whose distorted beliefs and practices are mostly man-made and riddled with magical thinking, myths, and superstitions.

Jacob, Moses, David, Ezekiel, Isaiah and others were all given a brief glimpse of YHVH's amazing flying machines, but the darkness of religion comprehends it not, keeping its slaves imprisoned in shackled ignorance.

…30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"....Luke 16

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.…Act 16

12"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."....Acts 4

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

January 22, 2015

That is the problem. People see it as two different hats. All beauty is the making one of opposites. God does one act, one very active act. For some this act is heaven, for others it is hell. In a very real sense God loves them to death...

Interesting thoughts Kevin. Thank you.

And yet, I cannot see how God can continue to wear His love "hat" while He publicly executes His enemies. (I hope this "hats" analogy is an acceptable one for the readers.)

To me, the thought that God loves with an "everlasting love" says a great deal about Him. But if, in reality, the love of God is "everlasting" for the Redeemed only, then Divine love is 'selective' and God appears to be partial in the greatest, most glorious, feature of His character.

Paul was persuaded that not even "death" has the power to separate a person from the love of God... I would go so far as to suggest that the Second Death is included in this. Even when root and branch (Satan and all the wicked) are gone, the love of God will continue for them. I have no doubt about this.

But in my view we all have much to learn about the love of God --- much to learn before we can represent Him to the extent that it is necessary.

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour..." (Rom 13:10)

If we must ask "Who is our neighbour?", or "Who is God's neighbour?", then perhaps we are still babes, and not yet ready for solid food.

For many of the lost, the lake of fire will not bring a quick death, will it? A large number will burn for "many days". It will 'go ill' for them. How does God literally love His enemies "to death", when Love "worketh no ill"?

January 22, 2015

Stewart says:

"I cannot see how it is that God can continue to wear His love "hat" while He publicly executes His enemies."

The same way a mother bear is wearing the love "hat" when it defends its cubs by disembowelling the cubs' tormentor; or the way a human parent would tear into anyone molesting or abusing their child.

Love doesn't always mean being "nice". A literary allegory would by Aslan in "Chronicles of Narnia". Lucy told us that he was a "good" lion; but that doesn't mean he's a "safe" lion. Our God is a "good" God; but He's not always a "safe" God - especially to those who abusing and molesting His children.

January 22, 2015

Stewart says:

"I cannot see how it is that God can continue to wear His love "hat" while He publicly executes His enemies."

The same way a mother bear is wearing the love "hat" when it defends its cubs by disembowelling the cubs' tormentor; or the way a human parent would tear into anyone molesting or abusing their child.

Love doesn't always mean being "nice". A literary allegory would by Aslan in "Chronicles of Narnia". Lucy told us that he was a "good" lion; but that doesn't mean he's a "safe" lion. Our God is a "good" God; but He's not always a "safe" God - especially to those who abusing and molesting His children.

I understand what you're saying JoeMo. But I believe that God loves my tormentor just as much as He loves me.

God would have us love our enemies, and pray prayers like, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". The Lord is ready to grant such prayers, I believe.

Our tormentors, molesters, and abusers (both human and angelic) are loved with the same everlasting love that we are. Many people find this prospect to be too much, too extreme, because this idea is quite ruinous to any desire we might have for retaliation or revenge.

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