Cast Out Of Heaven

January 23, 2015

Rather than comparing it to the mother bear, I see more of an analogy to a kiln. If you put in a piece of pottery and an ice sculpture the kiln does not treat them differently. It is the exact same thing that happens to both pieces. However one becomes a work of art and the other is destroyed by the same action.

January 23, 2015

Rather than comparing it to the mother bear, I see more of an analogy to a kiln. If you put in a piece of pottery and an ice sculpture the kiln does not treat them differently. It is the exact same thing that happens to both pieces. However one becomes a work of art and the other is destroyed by the same action.

May I suggest something else here, Kevin?

Surrounding God there is an area sometimes referred to as the "sea of glass". This, I suggest, has specific bounds, and God warns people not to come onto it unless they are properly prepared.

When God gave Moses specific directions to prepare the people for the giving of the Law, one of His warnings was contained in this :

"And the LORD said unto [Moses], Away, get thee down, and [later] you shall come [back] up -- you, and Aaron with you: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest He break forth upon them." (Exodus 19:24)

It was a dangerous time for the people, and if they had come beyond the specified bounds -- if they had come too close to God -- many of them would have died.

God's attitude/plea seems to be, "Don't come too close to Me, or you will die."

When Satan finally leads his people against the City Of God, God is still the same... but as Satan passes onto the Sea of Glass, he suddenly becomes the spark that will consume the entire world. The Sea of Glass (perhaps unseen at that point,) quickly becomes a thunderous Lake of Fire.

It is only after this, that God will wipe away every tear, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

(Rev 21:1-4)

January 24, 2015

May I suggest something else here, Kevin?

Surrounding God there is an area sometimes referred to as the "sea of glass". This, I suggest, has specific bounds, and God warns people not to come onto it unless they are properly prepared.

When God gave Moses specific directions to prepare the people for the giving of the Law, one of His warnings was contained in this :

"And the LORD said unto [Moses], Away, get thee down, and [later] you shall come [back] up -- you, and Aaron with you: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest He break forth upon them." (Exodus 19:24)

It was a dangerous time for the people, and if they had come beyond the specified bounds -- if they had come too close to God -- many of them would have died.

God's attitude/plea seems to be, "Don't come too close to Me, or you will die."

When Satan finally leads his people against the City Of God, God is still the same... but as Satan passes onto the Sea of Glass, he suddenly becomes the spark that will consume the entire world. The Sea of Glass (perhaps unseen at that point,) quickly becomes a thunderous Lake of Fire.

It is only after this, that God will wipe away every tear, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

(Rev 21:1-4)

I can see that perspective harmonizing with Scripture.

God doesn't cast consuming fire upon sin - He IS a consuming fire with respect to sin.

Sin simply cannot endure the presence of a Holy God - sin brings with it death by fire should it approach God close enough.

Such is Satan's current "hell" - always wanting the throne of God for himself, yet never being able to come close enough to God to fight and live. Such unsatisfied coveting and yearning will drive him to make the insane choice - to try to approach God directly and survive the fight. Sin, and those identifying with it, find only a fiery consumption awaiting them...not because God sends it, but because that is the natural consequence occurring when sin comes in close proximity to God.

Blessings,

January 24, 2015

...God is "holy, harmless, and undefiled". (Heb 7:26 kjv). ...

I never really paid attention to God is "harmless".... :thinking:

January 24, 2015

IF God is "harmless" (meaning He doesn't harm) what do with the following:

Gen 19:4 "Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. ....29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived."

Did God destroy those cities? Answer: Yes?

But wouldn't that make Him harmful? Depends. Did He physically call down burning sulfur out of the sky, or did He remove Himself and His protection?

I say that the latter is consistent with God's agape love and I can prove it when it comes to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Keep in mind four cites were destroyed:

Deut 29:23 "The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger."

Now notice the language in Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred."

Notice the language: "Give you up" and "hand you over".

Now read the following:

Deut 31:17 "Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?"

January 24, 2015

...Such is Satan's current "hell" - always wanting the throne of God for himself, yet never being able to come close enough to God to fight and live. Such unsatisfied coveting and yearning will drive him to make the insane choice - to try to approach God directly and survive the fight. Sin, and those identifying with it, find only a fiery consumption awaiting them...not because God sends it, but because that is the natural consequence occurring when sin comes in close proximity to God.

Blessings,

Thank you Ted. I appreciate the thoughts you've shared on this.

Satan's "insane choice"... what an eloquent expression ! And yes, "...The fool rages and is confident." (Prov 14:16)

But could I run something by you?

When God manifested Himself in the Sanctuary, the "death zone" for deliberate, conscious, sin was relatively small. Fire flashed out upon Nadab and Abihu while they were in the Courtyard.

When God manifested Himself to a greater extent upon Mt. Sinia, the "death zone" was correspondingly larger. It took in the whole mountain.

When God manifests Himself in the eternal City, I believe the "death zone" will be larger again.

Now I do not know how far out this could be extrapolated... Do you know what I mean?

But if His glory fills the entire universe (which must be possible, and which, I believe, was the original design), then sin would not be capable of surviving anywhere.

January 24, 2015

IF God is "harmless" (meaning He doesn't harm) what do with the following:

Gen 19:4 "Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. ....29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived."

Did God destroy those cities? Answer: Yes?

But wouldn't that make Him harmful? Depends. Did He physically call down burning sulfur out of the sky, or did He remove Himself and His protection?

I say that the latter is consistent with God's agape love and I can prove it when it comes to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Keep in mind four cites were destroyed:

Deut 29:23 "The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger."

Now notice the language in Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred."

Notice the language: "Give you up" and "hand you over".

Now read the following:

Deut 31:17 "Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?"

Robert, I like this very much. I believe that we need to be dividing the word of God in this way.

Have you seen the thought in Lamentations? (Similar in principle, I think, to the verses you've shared here.)

"He hath cut off in His fierce anger all the horn of Israel: He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy, and He burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about." (Lam 2:3)

That special Providence which used to protect the chosen people had been "drawn back" [pushed away]. Israel was left exposed, and the [figurative] fire which was devouring them, God ascribes to Himself.

January 24, 2015

As a long time Adventist I have known the account of the fall and rebellion in heaven and Lucifer and his angels being cast out . Recently I was asked for a biblical support for this account.I was found lacking in texts.

I would appreciate any clear support texts on this belief.

January 24, 2015

As a long time Adventist I have known the account of the fall and rebellion in heaven and Lucifer and his angels being cast out . Recently I was asked for a biblical support for this account.I was found lacking in texts.

I would appreciate any clear support texts on this belief.

What about the texts in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Not to mention Revelation?

Those were the main ones the pioneers of our church used to come to their conclusions.

January 24, 2015

Hi Bruce, You wrote

As a long time Adventist I have known the account of the fall and rebellion in heaven and Lucifer and his angels being cast out . Recently I was asked for a biblical support for this account.I was found lacking in texts.

I would appreciate any clear support texts on this belief.

The only CLEAR reference that I know of in the Bible is in Revelation 12:7-9 but unfortunately in the context it is referring to an experience just AFTER or at the crucifixion. If you read the verses before and after those ones then you will see that. That was when the loyal angels confirmed their stand for God having seen Satan and his followers in action at Calvary. Before that they had lived by faith in His word. What EGW has done for us to show that those verses also refer to the first experience, so unless your listener is willing to accept another application of a prophecy then you may have trouble convincing him/her.

If that is the case, then you could use Christ's prophecies in Matthew 24 first and show that they have three applications, as do some others in the Bible.

“And there was war [of words] in heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him”.

Jude tells us that they “left” of their own accord. “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He [God] has reserved [preserved] in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”. Jude 1:6. “Don’t do it before the time” as some demons pleaded with Christ. Matthew 8:29. So your listener will have to hear the Spirit's leading on it. "If any man have a [spiritual] ear, let him hear". Revelation 13:9.

Hope this helps.

January 24, 2015

As a long time Adventist I have known the account of the fall and rebellion in heaven and Lucifer and his angels being cast out . Recently I was asked for a biblical support for this account.I was found lacking in texts.

I would appreciate any clear support texts on this belief.

What about the texts in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Not to mention Revelation?

Those were the main ones the pioneers of our church used to come to their conclusions.

Here is one of their articles on the origin of Lucifer and his fall. Unfortunately I couldn't get to just the article. Scroll past the poem at the beginning to get to the article itself "Rapology Explained". What you are interested in is about the 11th paragraph down. There are more such articles under various topics.

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Periodical&bookCode=ARSH&lang=en&collection=15&section=17&QUERY=%22rapology+explained%22&resultId=1&year=1853&month=July&day=21

January 25, 2015

As a long time Adventist I have known the account of the fall and rebellion in heaven and Lucifer and his angels being cast out . Recently I was asked for a biblical support for this account.I was found lacking in texts.

I would appreciate any clear support texts on this belief.

Bruce,

May I offer a few thoughts on this too? These are indirect, but they do seem to be quite clear.

Jude teaches that there had been a fall and a rebellion in heaven prior to the days of Moses.

(RonP has already referred to this, but at the risk of repetition, I would like to comment too.)

"...Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses..." (Jude 1:9)

Obviously then, the Devil (literally "Diabolos", a false accuser,) was present during the days of Moses, and there was a contention between the Archangel and the Devil.

But it is interesting that Jude has already made the point that a mass falling away /rebellion against God, has occurred :

"... the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6)

A definite division has taken place -- a group of angels have "left" (KJV), "abandoned" (Moffatt), or "deserted" (Weymouth) their first estate. (And this abandonment must, I think, have included the abandonment of their "first love".)

Two "camps" were formed, and there was no communion [i.e. there could be no communion] between the two camps. Light and darkness had no fellowship. It was simply impossible (2Cor 6:14), because their hearts were in a different 'place'.

This was set [at least] in the days of Moses.

Now if it is accepted that the events depicted in the Book of Job predates those involving Moses, then of course it is clear that Satan (literally, the Adversary) already existed. (Job 1.)

And if the Serpent that beguiled Eve (2Cor 11:3) is the same "old Serpent, which is the Devil and Satan" (Rev 20:2), then of course the rebellion in heaven predates the creation of life on this planet.

I would go back to my opening thought in the thread, basically, that rebellion necessitated separation. The purity, together with the genuine care, and the non-striving, non-arguing, non-abusing spirit of heaven, was torture to those that wanted to fight. Michael, I believe, led His angels in the "good fight". They literally overcame evil with good.

January 25, 2015

And if the Serpent that beguiled Eve (2Cor 11:3) is the same "old Serpent, which is the Devil and Satan" (Rev 20:2), then of course the rebellion in heaven predates the creation of life on this planet.

If that weren't true, how could there have been a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden? Evil would not have been in existence yet.

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

January 25, 2015

The ancient world had a focus on the Great Controversy, however it became corrupted. The Bible built on these assumptions but clarified the corrupted information. Over the years we moved into cultures that did not have the emphasis on the Great Controversy so we have the words but not the whole historical context except for what has been saved in our doctrine. Then the work by Milton in Paradise Lost helped to revive the background, and as we were on the edge of archaeology and the rediscovery of the ancient world Mrs. White pointed out some very important things that we have been able to notice in the discoveries.

January 25, 2015

Thank you Ted. I appreciate the thoughts you've shared on this.

Satan's "insane choice"... what an eloquent expression ! And yes, "...The fool rages and is confident." (Prov 14:16)

But could I run something by you?

When God manifested Himself in the Sanctuary, the "death zone" for deliberate, conscious, sin was relatively small. Fire flashed out upon Nadab and Abihu while they were in the Courtyard.

When God manifested Himself to a greater extent upon Mt. Sinia, the "death zone" was correspondingly larger. It took in the whole mountain.

When God manifests Himself in the eternal City, I believe the "death zone" will be larger again.

Now I do not know how far out this could be extrapolated... Do you know what I mean?

But if His glory fills the entire universe (which must be possible, and which, I believe, was the original design), then sin would not be capable of surviving anywhere.

Let me, in turn, return this by you.

As God Himself has submitted Himself to be "on trial" due to the accusations of the would-be usurper, evidence for both sides is entered for examination and cross-examination. In every single judgment scene I can find in prophecy, a verdict of acquittal is made for God by every sentient being. At the very last, in Revelation 20, the force of the truth constrains Satan and his vast throng of the wicked to make the same confession.

I would believe that with the unfolding of the sanctuary here on earth, sentient beings began to see the practical connection between what God was effecting in heaven, versus what was happening on earth. They see that God, rather than forcing other to worship Him, desires instead a voluntary love response.

Before the Flood, God's presence was found primarily around the entrance to the Garden of Eden. The path the to the Tree of Life was guarded by the cherubim AND the "flaming sword, which turned every direction". Interesting that the path was guarded by sword of flame...since Nadab and Abihu were cut down by much the same thing in the courtyard. The "death zone" is put in place and applied when the truth of God is known but disregarded. All of the pre-Flood world knew the path to the tree of life was off-limits. Any attempt to force one's self to the tree meant being cut down by that sword of flame.

In truth, this "death zone" is only evidence that sin has had to flee from God's presence in all Creation, to the one place it can still exist without being instantly consumed...our planet Earth.

In the patriarchs, God was found at the many burnt offering altars dotting the landscape...one either worshiped Him, or not - no "death zone needed.

At Mt. Sinai, God revealed Himself as the One True God - vanquisher of the false gods of Egypt. Most of Israel, and nearly all of the mixed multitude who followed along with Israel, had no concept of "holiness". The overwhelming majority had absolutely no understanding of how God's holiness and their sinful nature would interact to produce death (later verified in their making of the golden calf).

They did understand, though, going where God said not to go, did indeed produce death.

The "death zone" around My Sinai was that large, because God was inaugurating a new unfolding of how He was going to fulfill His Promise of a Redeemer (Genesis 3:15). He was making an entire nation the recipients and carriers of the Old Testament, pre-Cross Gospel.

After the dedication of the sanctuary, the "death zone" shrank to those who knew the truth but obeyed it not. Nadab and Abihu certainly knew the truth of God and His holiness - they were among the 70 who entered and feasted in the very presence of God...alongside their father Aaron. That, I understand, is the key - understanding who God really is, and what He really says. Disobedience of this places one inside the "death zone" of God's presence.

After Nadab and Abihu, the zone shrinks back to only the immediate proximity of the Mercy Seat/Lord's presence. If the High Priest's preparation was lacking, he died in God's presence there. Interesting that Moses could approach God within the Most Holy any time he wished, but Aaron only once a year...but I digress. When Miriam was punished for her pride with leprosy, it was in His presence (Numbers 12:1-15). She repented, and was received back to her place in the congregation.

The rebellion of Korah was punished as the Lord appeared with Moses and Aaron at the gate of the courtyard - these continued their rebellion even though the Lord gave absolute proof of His chosen servants.

Uzzah was slain when he in good intention reached out and touched the Ark when the cart carrying it looked like it was going to be upset. God's word, versus good intentions...which won in the presence of God?

Now, go back and review each of these events - what was the main reaction of the surrounding peoples - love response, or fear/rebellion? Throughout time, humanity's main misunderstanding about God is thinking He can be approached in any way other than His Word. Humanity fails to understand that God's intrinsic holiness destroys sin when sin enters His presence, as a matter of natural consequence.

Now, let's go back and look at why God declared for His people to make Him a sanctuary...Exodus 25:8 says nothing about God desiring the sanctuary being built to receive sacrifices and prayers. It says everything about God wanting to dwell among His people. Hence, everything about the sanctuary - from the rites to the sacrifices - was focused on bringing believers to an understanding of how to approach without being slain, this holy Living God who desired to dwell among them.

In looking at the subsequent progression of the portable sanctuary, to Solomon's Temple, to Ezekiel's Temple (which I believe was to be built when the Exiles returned from captivity in Babylon had they demonstrated a true national repentance), I see an increase in size and inclusion - the closer His people were to be in drawing near to the Lord, the bigger His dwelling place was to become. His earthly presence was to be the evidence He could dwell within the heart by faith in the coming Redeemer, consuming sin and removing it from the Redeemed looking to the original Promise.

In the New Testament, we see a shift - God's dwelling with His people is no longer within an earthly building. He no longer needs the building as evidence. Due to the successful re-connecting/fusion of mankind with God seen in the person of Jesus Christ, the Living God has won the legal right through the Cross and the Resurrection to indwell within the human heart/mind - which has the de facto point of making people the building blocks of His New Testament temple (1 Peter 2:5,6) by His indwelling Holy Spirit. We live due to His grace, as we seek to learn to approach this holy Living God who would dwell within us, drawing us ever nearer to Him. He consumes the sin as we are drawn closer to Himself. We carry a "death zone" within us...yet we live.

It is this mechanism that explains why Ananias and his wife Sapphira died suddenly when they were confronted with their sins of false witness and coveting - they lied to the direct presence of the Holy Spirit who dwelt within. in essence, they carried the "death zone" within.

The last we see of this "death zone" is in Revelation 20. Looking at where Adventist thought of where the believers will be during the 1000 years, and comparing with the descriptions of New Jerusalem found in Revelation 21, 22, we see that John sees no temple there - no building where God dwells with His people. Instead, he makes the statement that God dwells "with men" - indicating He is dwelling openly among His people who now bask in His holiness. The entire city is holy, and any sinful thing trying to venture inside would meet a consuming fate. That is why it describes that which is contrary to His holiness as residing outside the gates (Revelation 22:15).

God wins the legal right to take back up His rulership over all Creation by the verdicts rendered in Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:13-14; Revelation 4:10-11; Revelation 5:11-14). The redeemed win the right to reign with Him by virtue of similar verdicts (as the redeemed, in becoming believers, come under not just the same accusations made against God, but also of the true record of their sins while living with a sinful human nature). That God through Christ is both just and the justifier of His people is made clear, and God and His people are exonerated (Daniel 7:18, 21-22, 25-27; Revelation 5:9-10). All of Creation, including all sentient beings God has created, comes to this conclusion. The only place in creation that hasn't, is planet earth...where Satan and his rebels (angelic and human) are confined.

In the Great White Throne scene of Revelation 20, Satan and the rebellion are confronted with the evidences of their personal involvement, wherein God and the Redeemed are declared exonerated by Creation of all accusations. The force of the truth renders their confession from their own lips (Philippians 2:10-11). Earth cannot escape being flooded with God's holiness. Sin, having run, accused, then fled from God, can no longer hide. There is no more deception at this point - all knowing love God, or want to tear Him from His throne despite knowing the truth. Sin must meet its fate, one way or another.

Sin must be consumed by the holiness of God residing within....or be consumed from without when it has no more places to hide and flee to. There is no middle ground.

Blessings,

January 26, 2015

Thank you all for the contribution to my Question . This long believed fundamental to the Great Controversy takes some understanding.

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