Blessed Trinity, an Unblessed Monstrosity???

[wicklunds]

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Clio said:

Do you agree that Jesus is the Word made flesh?

Yes

Do you agree that the KJV of the Holy Bible is the authoritative, inerrant Word of God?

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The Words, as they have proceeded out of the mouth of God, are an unerring guide. When man put his hand to writing out what God, through His providence, gave for His the guidance of His children, he may have had a corrupting influence on them (words). I can only trust that my life will be saved if I dilligently hearken and do what the Word of God tells me, through my conscience, to do. The KJV has problems, but it is the most trustworthy of all translations for me and everyone.

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Clio said:

Would you accept from that source a text that says there are three in heaven and that they are one?

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I accept that the text you are referencing refers to a oneness of purpose, but not a oneness of substance. Even with this text, I still cannot accept all the baggage that comes along with the word trinity. It would be a treacherous thing against God the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Son, to adhere this relationship to a coined term that carries the confusing baggage of Greco-Roman, Platonic philosophy, adopted by wordlings (those who could care less about Jesus Christ and His loving sacrifice)and pagans.

One thing I must mention here. To all outward appearances it may seem as though the roles have reversed because I, someone who usually affirms the fund. doctrines of the SDA Church, am challenging this one, and you, the ones usually challenging the doctrines, are defending this one. Do you find this most intriguing? It is a wonder to me... Beware the spirit of antichrist...

1 John

2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Dennis

[Clio]

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Clio:

Do you agree that Jesus is the Word made flesh?

Dennis:

Yes

Clio:

Do you agree that the KJV of the Holy Bible is the authoritative, inerrant Word of God?

Dennis:

The Words, as they have proceeded out of the mouth of God, are an unerring guide. When man put his hand to writing out what God, through His providence, gave for His the guidance of His children, he may have had a corrupting influence on them (words). I can only trust that my life will be saved if I dilligently hearken and do what the Word of God tells me, through my conscience, to do. The KJV has problems, but it is the most trustworthy of all translations for me and everyone.

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This was a Yes/No question. Not an essay question. Do I understand correctly that you are making a stand that only the KJV is the inerrant Word of God in the English language?

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Clio said:

Would you accept from that source a text that says there are three in heaven and that they are one?

Dennis:

I accept that the text you are referencing refers to a oneness of purpose, but not a oneness of substance. Even with this text, I still cannot accept all the baggage that comes along with the word trinity. It would be a treacherous thing against God the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Son, to adhere this relationship to a coined term that carries the confusing baggage of Greco-Roman, Platonic philosophy, adopted by wordlings (those who could care less about Jesus Christ and His loving sacrifice)and pagans.

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That does not answer my question. And you have no idea what text I am referring to, or even if I plan on using the text I may or may not be referring to, because I haven't yet put my next thoughts into this thread. You are making assumptions, which is a very bad way to conduct a scriptural investigation.

This also is a Yes/No question, not an essay question.

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One thing I must mention here. To all outward appearances it may seem as though the roles have reversed because I, someone who usually affirms the fund. doctrines of the SDA Church, am challenging this one, and you, the ones usually challenging the doctrines, are defending this one. Do you find this most intriguing? It is a wonder to me... Beware the spirit of antichrist...

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Yes, Dennis, do indeed beware the spirit of the Anti-Christ. Those who abide in True Jesus do not pass judgement on fellow believers for such is expressly forbidden numerous times in the Word. The role of Judge does not belong to us, nor does it belong to Jesus, or even the Holy Spirit. The role of Judge belongs solely to the Father. You tread perilously close to usurping His role with regard to my relationship with His Son.

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1 John

2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Dennis

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I have never denied this verse, Dennis. Coupled with your comments immediately preceding it however, it appears as though you use Scripture as a bludgeon in an attempt to enforce your thinking on others.

Do not do this to me. Abba will not stand for it and neither will I. I am His Daughter, with all the rights and duties of a Daughter in the House of the King. Part of those rights are to be treated with respect and with acceptance that my heart is right with the Son and that He is my Shepherd, and as His sheep I know His Voice.

I have not given any indication in any way that my heart is lacking in my relationship with my Beloved Jesus.

Please answer my questions and then let us proceed.

Clio

[wicklunds]

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Clio said:

This was a Yes/No question. Not an essay question. Do I understand correctly that you are making a stand that only the KJV is the inerrant Word of God in the English language?

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I answered what I answered, take it however you want.

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Clio said:

That does not answer my question. And you have no idea what text I am referring to, or even if I plan on using the text I may or may not be referring to, because I haven't yet put my next thoughts into this thread. You are making assumptions, which is a very bad way to conduct a scriptural investigation.

This also is a Yes/No question, not an essay question.

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Are you serious?...

This is a chat forum not an inquisition.

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Clio said:

Yes, Dennis, do indeed beware the spirit of the Anti-Christ. Those who abide in True Jesus do not pass judgement on fellow believers for such is expressly forbidden numerous times in the Word. The role of Judge does not belong to us, nor does it belong to Jesus, or even the Holy Spirit. The role of Judge belongs solely to the Father. You tread perilously close to usurping His role with regard to my relationship with His Son.

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Hey now, I did not want to usurp anyone's role just lay it out as I see it.

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Clio said:

I have never denied this verse, Dennis. Coupled with your comments immediately preceding it however, it appears as though you use Scripture as a bludgeon in an attempt to enforce your thinking on others.

Do not do this to me. Abba will not stand for it and neither will I. I am His Daughter, with all the rights and duties of a Daughter in the House of the King. Part of those rights are to be treated with respect and with acceptance that my heart is right with the Son and that He is my Shepherd, and as His sheep I know His Voice.

I have not given any indication in any way that my heart is lacking in my relationship with my Beloved Jesus.

Please answer my questions and then let us proceed.

Clio

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I stand by the previous answers. If they are not good enough for you, it might benefit us to have you post on another thread.

Dennis

[wicklunds]

It is a great question though, is it not? Why would someone who denied the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, denied the investigative judgment, denied the historicist interpretation of the prophetic books, denied a literal creation week, denied the truthfulness of the scriptures, denied the heavenly sanctuary, denied anything truly Adventist, defend such a dubious, spurious doctrine like the trinity? The answer is because you seek to change the truth of God into an Evangelical lie. Evangelicalism and Adventism mix together like oil and water, cats and dogs, Israel and Babylon. When will we wake up and realize this people?

Dennis

[Derrell M]

Hmmmm.... (headshake) this is going all to he(double hockey sticks)

[archierieus]

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"“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 3:8

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” John 1:1 - 3

“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” Psalm 33:6

“LORD, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalm 90:1, 2

Okay, who is the "Lord" in these passages?

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Having not received much response, I should like to simply summarize a couple of points evidenced by these passage:

1. The Lord God created man, the earth, the world, the heavens and all the host of them.

2. This Lord God is also referred to as the "Word" in John 1. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made.

3. In the Word, the Lord God, the Creator, is life. Every created being has been GIVEN life by the Creator. Only the Word, the Lord God, the Creator Himself, HAS life WITHIN Himself.

4. The Lord God, the Word, Who created "the earth and the world," is "from everlasting to everlasting," and is God.

These passages are quite straightforward, and I see no need to resort to the Hebrew/Greek at this time.

Alright, continuing with a few more references:

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2

“And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” Exodus 3:4 - 6

“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” Exodus 3:14

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” Matthew 1:23

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

The position statement which I made earlier, is that Christ is the eternal, preexistent God. I assert that the above passages support this position statement. I await response.

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

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wicklunds said:

It is a great question though, is it not? Why would someone who denied the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, denied the investigative judgment, denied the historicist interpretation of the prophetic books, denied a literal creation week, denied the truthfulness of the scriptures, denied the heavenly sanctuary, denied anything truly Adventist, defend such a dubious, spurious doctrine like the trinity? The answer is because you seek to change the truth of God into an Evangelical lie. Evangelicalism and Adventism mix together like oil and water, cats and dogs, Israel and Babylon. When will we wake up and realize this people?

Dennis

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Who did that?

[wicklunds]

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Clio said:

Who did that?

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Lots of people, maybe not you...

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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archierieus said:

Okay, who is the "Lord" in these passages?

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Is it written who the LORD is in these passages?

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archierieus said:

Having not received much response, I should like to simply summarize a couple of points evidenced by these passage:

1. The Lord God created man, the earth, the world, the heavens and all the host of them... etc...etc...

The position statement which I made earlier, is that Christ is the eternal, preexistent God. I assert that the above passages support this position statement. I await response.

Regards, Dave

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Dave,

I stated earlier that even if you COULD explain the existence of Jesus Christ with respect to time, it would not touch the explanation of a trinity in the scriptures, which this thread is about. Besides, you cannot derive, from the scriptures you posted, that Jesus is who the LORD is in these. How can you say this? It does not say that Jesus is the LORD therein referred to. In the new testament, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say? Does that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the eternal pre-existent God the Father? Absolutely not... God the Father, BEGAT Jesus Christ, the Son of God, before human life was even a twinkle in Jesus' Eye. Therefore, how can you assert that Jesus and God are the same substance? This is confounding the simple relationship laid out over and over again in the scriptures.

I think we should humbly defer to God and to angels where God has not revealed His own identity. Could we look upon the identity of God, we would not live afterward. Let us not go where angels fear to tread.

Dennis

[Gerr]

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Either way you wanna slice it, there is no such trinity doctrine defensible in the scriptures or Ellen White.

Dennis

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[:"blue"]"In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived." 1SM 297

"He was equal with God, infinite, and omnipotent....He is the eternal, self-existent Son.

In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son has life" (1 Jn 5:12). The [:"red"] divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. [/]" LHU 18. [/]

If Christ is only a created being and not God in the fullest sense, you do not have assurance of eternal life.

Gerry

[wicklunds]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Either way you wanna slice it, there is no such trinity doctrine defensible in the scriptures or Ellen White.

Dennis

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[:"blue"]"In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived." 1SM 297

"He was equal with God, infinite, and omnipotent....He is the eternal, self-existent Son.

In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son has life" (1 Jn 5:12). The [:"red"] divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. [/]" LHU 18. [/]

If Christ is only a created being and not God in the fullest sense, you do not have assurance of eternal life.

Gerry

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Gerry,

I have never denied the full divinity of Jesus Christ. Only that He is not the identical substance of God the Father, and that He was the only begotten of the Father. Again you and the others reinforce this quote:

"The great mistake of Trinitarians, in arguing this subject, is this: they make no distinction between a denial of a Trinity and a denial of the divinity of Christ. They see only two extremes, between which the truth lies; and take every expression referring to the pre-existence of Christ as evidence of a Trinity. They abundantly teach the pre-existence of Christ and His divinity; but they are entirely silent in regard to a Trinity" J.H. Waggoner - Review and Herald, November 10, 1863.

Dennis

[Gerr]

When was Jesus described as "begotten"?

"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David." Lk 1:32 NKJ

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." Lk 1:35 NKJ.

"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mt 3:16,17 NKJ.

"The Good News is about God's Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. As a man, He was born from the family of David. But through the Spirit of holiness He was apppointed to be God's Son with great power by rising from the dead." Rom 1:3,4 NCV.

To summarize: Jesus Christ became "Son of God", i.e. begotten, at three points in His life. 1) At conception by the the Holy Spirit, 2) At His baptism, 3) At His resurrection.

Of the Son, the Father's testimony according to the writer of Hebrews is:

"Your throne, O God is forever and ever;

You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,

And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

They will perish, but You remain;

And they will all grow old like a garment;

Like a cloak You wil fold them up,

And they will be changed.

But you are the same,

And Your years will not fail." Heb 1:8,10-12 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Forget the word "Trinity" for the moment.

If Christ is "fully divine", & has "life, original, unborrowed, underived," then, of what substance is He?

Gerry

[Gregory Matthews]

Just maybe the begotten occured at the incarnation.

Perhaps, if there are Biblical texts that seem to refer to Christ as begotten, they look forward in time to the incarnation.

[archierieus]

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wicklunds said:

I stated earlier that even if you COULD explain the existence of Jesus Christ with respect to time, it would not touch the explanation of a trinity in the scriptures, which this thread is about.

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This thread came about as a result of Gregory's suggestion, which had to do with the Divinity of Christ. My position statement early in the thread stated that as well.

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Besides, you cannot derive, from the scriptures you posted, that Jesus is who the LORD is in these. How can you say this? It does not say that Jesus is the LORD therein referred to.

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I don't think that is difficult at all. Besides, the other passages I quoted also make plain that Christ is the "everlasting Father," "I AM THAT I AM," etc.

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In the new testament, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say? Does that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the eternal pre-existent God the Father? Absolutely not...

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Huh?

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God the Father, BEGAT Jesus Christ, the Son of God, before

human

life was even a twinkle in Jesus' Eye. Therefore, how can you assert that Jesus and God are the same substance? This is confounding the simple relationship laid out over and over again in the scriptures.

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The next batch of texts which I had planned to share, deal with that issue. Will get to that, this evening.

Regards, Dave

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I think we should humbly defer to God and to angels where God has not revealed His own identity. Could we look upon the identity of God, we would not live afterward. Let us not go where angels fear to tread.

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I agree with the principle. God, and the Bible, clearly reveal the identity of Christ as the eternal God, and equal with the Father. We should, as you put it, humbly defer to God and recognize that we are treading on holy ground.

The Bible reveals that Satan hates Christ and seeks to belittle and demean Him. One of the earmarks of a false teaching, is if Christ is made out to be a lesser Being than the Father--such as the LDS teaching that Christ and Lucifer were brothers, or the Jehovah's Witness teaching, etc. My counsel to you, Dennis, is to take off the shoes from your feet, for the place where you are treading is holy ground.

Regards, Dave

[wicklunds]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Forget the word "Trinity" for the moment.

If Christ is "fully divine", & has "life, original, unborrowed, underived," then, of what substance is He?

Gerry

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Do you realize though, that you cannot forget the word trinity because that is what you arguing in favor of. You cannot forget that word as it is what describes the Godhead in our fundamental beliefs. It is a spurious word that bundles in the peculiar of God with Rome and her Babylonish daughters. I will not forget about this word... You cannot deny this and expect an intelligent conversation to ensue about God. Gerry this word was added to our belief creeds so that the religious world would not label us a "cult" or Jehovah's Witnesses, or "Arians". What blatant usurpation of the throne of God almighty!!! No, No NO x 1000 we MUST not accept this word as a holy description of a holy God.

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Just maybe the begotten occured at the incarnation.

Perhaps, if there are Biblical texts that seem to refer to Christ as begotten, they look forward in time to the incarnation.

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Again, we made a doctrine of "trinity" on this idea that Jesus was begotten at the incarnation. Aren't you arguing in favor of the pre-existent God the father, Jesus Christ? Do you see how blatantly false this is? How confused are you now? It doesn't need to be this way does it? If you say that Jesus was God the father then you say He raised Himself at the resurrection. Basically, there was no risk of death at all if Jesus was also God the father. This is why you cannot be saved and still assert the trinity. You are saying that God did not die on the cross. You are saying that Jesus' blood is in no way the same as humanity's.

I must stress that unless Jesus was in all ways tempted as we are yet without sin, He cannot or could not be anyone's savior. You must realize that trinity destroys this aspect of the Jesus and God relationship. If God so loved the world that He gave His only BEGOTTEN son, then let it be so Lord Jesus amen!!! No trinity doctrine for me please, thank You Father.

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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archierieus said:

This thread came about as a result of Gregory's suggestion, which had to do with the Divinity of Christ. My position statement early in the thread stated that as well.

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Oh really???.... Did Gregory start this thread?? Greg had nothing at all to do with this. This was my contention from the beginning. That is why I started this thread in townhall, so all would know that I do not appreciate the way Greg "modifies" and deletes my posts.

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archierieus said:

I don't think that is difficult at all. Besides, the other passages I quoted also make plain that Christ is the "everlasting Father," "I AM THAT I AM," etc.

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Keep dreaming sir...

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archierieus said:

In the new testament, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say? Does that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the eternal pre-existent God the Father? Absolutely not...

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Huh?

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Huh?

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archierieus said:

My counsel to you, Dennis, is to take off the shoes from your feet, for the place where you are treading is holy ground.

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Take some of your own counsel to heart my dear friend...

Regards,

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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archierieus said:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

Regards, Dave

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This passage is interesting... It is even persuasive in arguing that the Father and Jesus are one and the same... But just because His name shall be called "The everlasting Father", does that make them the same in substance? How could Jesus be on earth in the flesh while He prayed to God the Father in heaven? Was He praying to Himself? It is a fair question is it not? When He was baptized, a voice from heaven said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How can this be explained if Jesus is also God the Father at the same time He is being pulled out of the water? This cannot be explained in human terms friend. Did Jesus have one foot in heaven and one foot on earth during His human existence? How can He atone if He was not like me in every way? It would not be adequate propitiation would it?

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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Friend said:

Hmmmm.... (headshake) this is going all to he(double hockey sticks)

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Is this your reasonable contribution? It tells how much your presence lends to the integrity of the trinity argument.

Dennis

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Again, we made a doctrine of "trinity" on this idea that Jesus was begotten at the incarnation."

Yes, Dennis, I am a Trinitarian in the standard sense.

I have never denied that.

[wicklunds]

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CoAspen said:

Perhaps now you will begin to understand how certain peoples minds work...accuse, make assumptions, ask you questions, but will only answer your questions with prevaracation! Lots of fun isn't it!!

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And some people's minds work this way:

instigate, inflame, make personal jabs, self-elevate, justify self, undermine integrity, ignore logical arguments, etc...

Sounds worse off than the ones you implicate sir...

Dennis

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "If you say that Jesus was God the father then you say He raised Himself at the resurrection. Basically, there was no risk of death at all if Jesus was also God the father. This is why you cannot be saved and still assert the trinity. You are saying that God did not die on the cross. You are saying that Jesus' blood is in no way the same as humanity's."

Dennis, Most people here are arguing from the Biblical standpoint. You have wanted to cite Ellen G. White, so I will do the same in response to your statement above.

"When the voice of the mighty angel was heard at Christ's tomb, saying, Thy Father calls Thee, the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, 'I lay down My life, that I might take it again. . . . [sic.] I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.' Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' John 10:17, 18,; 2:19." DA 785.

I happen to believe that Christ raised himself, based upon the above cited Biblical passages.

You claim that such a position carreis with it no risk of death. I deny that.

Also, I do not say that Jesus was God the Father. The Trinitarian position, which I hold, does not say that Jesus was God the Father.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . . I do not appreciate the way Greg "modifies" and deletes my posts."

Dennis, you do not have to appreciate me, or what I do here.

You will note that in this discussion, I am giving you considerable freedom to post as you chose. I am doing such becasue the issue you raise is important, and I want you to have the ability to present your positon, and argue your ponts as you chose.

Yes, I had hoped you would do so in a more civil tone. But, that is your choice. I am letting you participate in this dialogue, as you chose to do.

[wicklunds]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: " . . . I do not appreciate the way Greg "modifies" and deletes my posts."

Dennis, you do not have to appreciate me, or what I do here.

You will note that in this discussion, I am giving you considerable freedom to post as you chose. I am doing such becasue the issue you raise is important, and I want you to have the ability to present your positon, and argue your ponts as you chose.

Yes, I had hoped you would do so in a more civil tone. But, that is your choice. I am letting you participate in this dialogue, as you chose to do.

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Greg,

Thank you for opening the floor back up to the Ellen White quotations. I was hoping that Clio would stick around longer if I refrained from quoting Ellen White, but since you decided to ignore her request, I will go ahead anyway.

Please look at the complete context of the passage in the DA:

Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. {DA 785.3}

Far be it from the truth that Ellen White would seek to weld the Father and the Son together into one spiritualized conception of God. She knew that individuals would twist her statements to make it seem she supported their erroneous theories after her passing. This was what the whole alpha/ Kellogg/ pantheism heresy was all about, and what this whole omega/Froom/ trinity deadly heresy is all about.

Dennis