Two Questions

[Samie]

Two questions:

1. If a little child of Christian parents dies, is he saved?
2. If a little child of non-Christian parents dies, is he doomed?

[Scuba]

The kingdom of God belongs to all children.

 

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

[Ted Oplinger]

1. Does Christ's blood cover the little child of the Christian parents?

 

2. Does Christ's blood cover the little child of the non-Christian parents?

 

1 John 2:1,2 is the answer to both questions.

 

Blessings,

 

Edit...See also 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "All" means just that - "ALL".

 

More blessings,

[Stewart (SDA)]

Samie,

 

This can be a very emotive subject of course. But I do have a thought relating to question #2.

 

"If a little child of non-Christian parents dies, is he doomed?"

 

To this, I would say, No.

If the Spirit of Prophecy is admissible, then I think this may be of interest:

 

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds,  they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life." (2SM p.260)

 

I get the impression that neither the child's mother, nor father, have risen in the resurrection of the just. If this is true, then the little child of non-Christian parents is not doomed.

 

And yet, I would hasten to add that I do not believe that all babies/infants are born "saved" by default.

[Samie]

...

 

And yet, I would hasten to add that I do not believe that all babies/infants are born "saved" by default.

Hi Stewart;

 

Can you please explain which babies are born "saved" by default and which are not?

[Samie]

1. Does Christ's blood cover the little child of the Christian parents?

 

2. Does Christ's blood cover the little child of the non-Christian parents?

 

1 John 2:1,2 is the answer to both questions.

 

Blessings,

 

Edit...See also 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15. "All" means just that - "ALL".

 

More blessings,

Hi Ted;

 

Are you saying that in the resurrection of the just, all little children who died at infancy are resurrected?

[Samie]

The kingdom of God belongs to all children.

 

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Hi Scuba;

 

Do you mean all little children who died at infancy will be resurrected to life eternal when our Lord returns?

[Ted Oplinger]

Hi Ted;

 

Are you saying that in the resurrection of the just, all little children who died at infancy are resurrected?

 

I am saying God has already taken everything into account.

 

I view the discussion on this topic to be the logical fallacy of the false choice, wherein the argument posited rests on a false premise.

 

The false premise being presented is that people have to see, hear, and understand Jesus and the Gospel (as we know it today) for people to be saved.

 

That is categorically wrong. It paints a picture of an exclusive God who is not ensuring every human ever conceived is included in His promise - the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches of God.

 

People from every pre-Cross nation, tribe, and tongue will have representatives in heaven. People who never even heard of the Promise, or heard of a Jew. Hundreds of lost tongues will find speakers there. They never heard of the Cross, or the predicted Suffering Servant. And yes, some will be infants from those days.

 

How do I know this? Revelation 4:9 says it plainly: "You have redeemed us to God by your blood out of EVERY tribe, TONGUE, PEOPLE, and NATION". 

 

Expand that out to encompass the scope of all of time since Creation. The millions of peoples living prior to Mt. Sinai, all around the globe, are included in that as well.

 

Every human that has died has already been decided...regardless of age. It is a false attribution of injustice to say God has not dealt with infants and "ignorant peoples" correctly and justly.

 

The Promise of a Redeemer was made to ALL people. Christ died and tasted death for all people - not just for believers. His blood covers all peoples. That is the universal aspect of salvation; yes, that covers even infants.

 

Yet, God knows who will ultimately accept that redemption, and who won't. He communicates with each person on levels we cannot fathom.

 

At the last day, no one stands up to Christ and accuses Him of unjustly dealing with these groups of people - infants and "ignorant peoples". 

 

As for me, I will not entertain the idea God is unjust unless He gives these cases a "special chance". It leads to what I consider unBiblical teaching and unsound doctrine. However, there are some who frequent here of a different thought.

 

The Bible is clear - all "live once, then comes the judgment". I see no exceptions to that being made. As to why one is taken and the other left...we will see that with our own eyes when we get theree and look at the books and evidence with our own eyes.

 

God is destined to be vindicated many times from the accusations He is unjust unless...fill in your condition here.

 

Careful proceeding in this topic - God's character is indeed holy ground. Tread carefully.

 

Blessings,

[Scuba]

Hi Scuba;

 

Do you mean all little children who died at infancy will be resurrected to life eternal when our Lord returns?

The judgement of God is very similar to the justice system in the United States in that it's based on two things. First, one's ability to understand and second, do they know the will of God. If they don't have the ability to understand or they have never been taught, the grace of God covers them. God is in the business of saving, redemption and reconciliation, not destruction. Jesus is the Savior of all people, especially those who believe.

 

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

God's justice is fair and uncorruptible.

[Robert]

Up until the age of accountability infants can't comprehend that they are sinners before God's law in need of a Savior.  That's why Paul states, "sin is not taken into account when there is no law."  (Roman 5:14)   And in Romans 4:14 Paul states that the "law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression".

 

Yes infants are sinners because like all of us they are selfish, but they are unaware of their situation. According to Paul the law can't legally condemn them until they reach the age of accountability.

 

So how are they saved?  Not through justification by faith because it impossible for them to exercise faith.  Then how?  Through Christ's justification of mankind (see Romans 5:18)

 

" So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation (not guilt) to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's - "the last Adam") there resulted justification of life to all men."

 

Christ, through the gospel, has saved the human race in Himself.  He has legally answered the demands of the law.  Because our corporate, fallen life was in Him when He obeyed and tasted death, He has legally saved "all men" in Himself. 

[Samie]

Here are the words of Him Who loves all the little children of the world:

 

“I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 18:3, NIV)

 

"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matt 19:14, NIV)

 

In the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ, it is written that only those whose names are written in the book of life can enter heaven:

 

NIV Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

Since Jesus assured that little children can enter the kingdom of heaven, therefore their names are in the book of life. This is good news for both Christians and non-Christians alike. We all had been little children and therefore our names had been written in the book of life.

 

The big question is whether our names are still there. Scriptures tell us that only overcomers will not be blotted out from it:

 

NKJ Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

But, overcome what?

 

NIV Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

Are you an overcomer? Have you overcome the evil of sinning? With our names in the book of life, the registry of the citizens of heaven, we are heaven-bound. But we could be deleted from it, unless we are overcomers. Good news is, judgment comes only when a person dies:

 

NKJ Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

 

There’s hope while alive. Our names are still in the book of life. The fact that our names are in the book of life is proof enough that we are members of the family of God, part of the body of Christ (Eph 2:11-19). Attached to Him Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13), we can overcome the evil of sinning, for we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us (Rom 8:37).

 

If in the end of one’ s journey in life, one is found to be a non-overcomer, he has no one else to blame. His name will be deleted from the book of life, dismembered from the family of God, detached from the body of Christ, for it is not a question of inability to overcome evil with good, but one of refusal.

 

May we all be overcomers and have our names remain written in the book of life! And when Jesus comes to render to every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), we all whose names remained written in the book of life will be ushered to the heavenly mansions and enjoy eternity with God and the Lamb.

[Robert]

 

Since Jesus assured that little children can enter the kingdom of heaven, therefore their names are in the book of life. This is good news for both Christians and non-Christians alike. We all had been little children and therefore our names had been written in the book of life.

 

The big question is whether our names are still there. 

 

Well, if a little child dies before he/she can exercise faith in Christ, I believe he/she will ultimately be in heaven.  That is, as you said, good news for both Christians and non-Christians alike.

 

But some will bring up the following: 

 

 John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. ....3  

Jesus declared, "I tell you (Nicodemus) the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

 

Here Jesus is speaking to a grown man, not a little child.  For those who have reached the age of accountability, yes, "you must be born again" to enter heaven.   You must accept Christ by faith....

[Robert]

55,772,015 abortions since Roe v. Wade....All I can say is that's a lot of babies for heaven, while mom & dad might forfeit heaven unless they repent and accept Christ as their righteousness.  I'm addressing abortion as birth control.....

 

[JoeMo]

Rather than write a 10-page text, I would like to direct you to 8thdaypriest's website www.prophecyviewpoint.com or search some of her posts here. Her study on "The 8th Day" is one of the most beautiful propositions on what we are discussing here.  IMO, her scriptural basis is sound.  Unborn children and children who die prior to the age of responsibility will be part of the "rest of the dead" raised at the end of the millennium; and will have an opportunity at that time to choose between God and satan, based on intelligent choice and accurate information.

[Samie]

 

Well, if a little child dies before he/she can exercise faith in Christ, I believe he/she will ultimately be in heaven.  That is, as you said, good news for both Christians and non-Christians alike.

 

But some will bring up the following: 

 

 John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. ....3  

Jesus declared, "I tell you (Nicodemus) the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

 

Here Jesus is speaking to a grown man, not a little child.  For those who have reached the age of accountability, yes, "you must be born again" to enter heaven.   You must accept Christ by faith....

 

Scriptures say that we were born born again through the resurrection of our Lord:

 

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

 

Our being born again is God's work for man, not man's work of acceptance.

It is by God's grace, not by man's work.

 

[Samie]

... Unborn children and children who die prior to the age of responsibility will be part of the "rest of the dead" raised at the end of the millennium; and will have an opportunity at that time to choose between God and satan, based on intelligent choice and accurate information.

KJV Isaiah 11:6-9  

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

The verses above tell of a little child, sucking child and weaned child in the holy mountain of God.  Since there is no more marriage after the resurrection (Luke 20:35), these little children are more likely those among the resurrected righteous in the second coming of Jesus where all in the graves, both righteous and wicked (none in-between), will be resurrected (John 5:28 ,29).

 

This simply concurs with the words of Jesus that little children are for the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3; 19:14).

 

If, as claimed, children dying before the age of reason will be given chance to choose between God and satan after the millennium, then there will be no sucking child in the holy mountain of God because by the time they can choose God they are no longer infants.

[Robert]

 children who die prior to the age of responsibility will be part of the "rest of the dead" raised at the end of the millennium; and will have an opportunity at that time to choose between God and satan, based on intelligent choice and accurate information.

Not necessary.  Christ has legally reversed our condemnation in Adam.

[Robert]

If, as claimed, children dying before the age of reason will be given chance to choose between God and satan after the millennium, then there will be no sucking child in the holy mountain of God because by the time they can choose God they are no longer infants.

[8thdaypriest]

This has ALL been discussed under the thread on When were names written into The Book of Life.

I doubt Samie has changed his view concerning this.  I know that I have not. 

 

There is a study at my website titled "The Book of Life" and there is an addendum. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

 

This can be a very emotive subject of course. But I do have a thought relating to question #2.

 

"If a little child of non-Christian parents dies, is he doomed?"

 

To this, I would say, No.

If the Spirit of Prophecy is admissible, then I think this may be of interest:

 

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds,  they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life." (2SM p.260)

 

I get the impression that neither the child's mother, nor father, have risen in the resurrection of the just. If this is true, then the little child of non-Christian parents is not doomed.

 

And yet, I would hasten to add that I do not believe that all babies/infants are born "saved" by default.

"Wing their way" ??  Little children are going to have wings. 

So the redeemed will all have wings ??

They will become a different species ??

[8thdaypriest]

CHILDREN WITH WINGS IN THE NEW EARTH

“We passed through the wood, for we were on our way to Mount Zion, as we were traveling along we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place: I noticed red as a border on their garments. Their crowns were brilliant--their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones, they had a hem of red on their garments also.  Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers.”
The Day-Star  January 24, 1846,  Early Writings of Ellen G. White  pg.18, Spiritual Gifts Volume II, p.54

QUESTION:  Did these resurrected children not grow for a thousand years during the 7th millennium?  Why are they still children in the new earth - with red borders on their garments showing that they were martyred on the earth?  And why do they have "wings".  Have they become a different species?  Just think about the chest muscles it takes to support wings, that actually work to pull against gravity.  Of course, maybe there is no gravity there???

 

And you wonder WHY I question some things.. . . .

[Samie]

Hi Rachel;

 

I don't think I changed my view as to when names were written in the book of life.

But do you have anything to say regarding post #16?

[Stewart (SDA)]

"Wing their way" ??  Little children are going to have wings. 

So the redeemed will all have wings ??

They will become a different species ??

Hi Rachel.

 

In my view, the redeemed will always be human beings, they won't become a different species. All of them will have the ability to "wing their way", but I do not believe that the human form will have new "appendages" (i.e. wings).

 

I suggest that there is a parallel in the Spirit of Prophecy (both in Scripture and in EGW) when it speaks about "crowns". These will be literal things, but the thought is magnified a little bit (speaking again about the infants) : "Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads". (2SM p.260)

 

Just as the "crowns" will be rings of light, I believe that the "wings" will be some visible emanation or energy associated with the human form, but these are not physical "appendages". The physical human form remains the same.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hi Stewart;

 

Can you please explain which babies are born "saved" by default and which are not?

The clearest/best thing I can say, Samie, is that none of them are born "saved" by default.

 

One of the lessons Jesus prefixes with "verily verily", is His lesson about re-birth. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn 3:3) It is not possible for a "man" (and I suggest He means man, woman, or child) to experience the kingdom of God, spiritually or literally, without being born again.

 

If Jesus has devised a means whereby this requirement can effectively be by-passed, then it seems to me that Jesus' emphasis on re-birth is misplaced.

 

This is a horrendous thing to say, I know, but if a new born baby is guaranteed a place in heaven, then in order to ensure that baby's place, why would a parent not kill their child before it reaches the age of accountability? The parent may imagine good reasons to sacrifice their own eternity, for the sake of their own beloved child. Do you see what I'm saying? It is a horrendous thought, but to my mind, that is precisely where the idea of guaranteed "infant salvation" can lead.

 

If that "hope" is given to a despondent, despairing parent, and they take hold of it in the way I've described, then woe unto us for giving them such a hope.

 

There are other things that I'd like to share, but perhaps this will suffice for now.

(I am sorry for speaking as plainly as I have here.)

[8thdaypriest]

"Wing their way" ??  Little children are going to have wings. 

So the redeemed will all have wings ??

They will become a different species ??

Could be Stewart.  But you didn't say why you think they are STILL CHILDREN after the 7th millennium, having died on earth as children. 

Do you think they will STAY CHILDREN forever?