Two Questions

[Samie]

The clearest/best thing I can say, Samie, is that none of them are born "saved" by default.

 

...

Hi Stewart;

 

Jesus said that there will be no marriage among the saved after the resurrection (Luke 20:35,36). Can you explain why there are babies in the holy mountain God?

 

KJV Isaiah 11:6-9 

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

If little children who died at infancy are not in the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of the Lord, then where did these little children in the holy mountain of God come from?

[Stewart (SDA)]

Could be Stewart.  But you didn't say why you think they are STILL CHILDREN after the 7th millennium, having died on earth as children. 

Do you think they will STAY CHILDREN forever?

 Hello again Rachel,

 

No, I don't think they will stay children forever. The little ones will "grow up as calves of the stall" (Mal 4:2), they will grow up in the best possible environment, reaching the full stature intended by God. But I suspect that the thoughts you are applying to the "new earth", may in fact be applicable to the opening part of the 1000 years.

 

The City of God contains a great deal of "garden", and if I remember rightly, even Eden itself is today incorporated within its walls.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hi Stewart;

 

Jesus said that there will be no marriage among the saved after the resurrection (Luke 20:35,36). Can you explain why there are babies in the holy mountain God?

 

KJV Isaiah 11:6-9 

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

If little children who died at infancy are not in the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of the Lord, then where did these little children in the holy mountain of God come from?

I don't have a good answer, Samie.

 

But it interests me that Isaiah 11:6 refers to the lamb (young sheep), and the kid (young goat), as well as to the little child.  The harmlessness and innocence of these things is leading me to think that this whole scene may, to some extent, be representative rather than literal.

[Samie]

I don't have a good answer, Samie.

 

...

 

I must admit you amaze me with your humility, brother.

 

Perhaps, until you can come up with a Scripture-based answer, we can just temporarily settle with the position that since there will be no marriage among the saved after the resurrection and yet there will be little children in the new earth, these little children are those resurrected along with the righteous at the Second Coming of our Lord.

[Gregory Matthews]

God speaks to people in every time and place in terms that they can understand.  Look at the Biblical books of Ezek. and Revelation.  They contain symbols that have meaning but do not need to be taken exactly and literally.  So also we do not need to believe that the redeemed will have wings attached to their bodies.  The point is that people will travel in a manner that differs from how they travel today.

[8thdaypriest]

WHY ARE THEY STILL CHILDREN, in the "first vision" of Ellen White?  According to her vision, they are "outside" of "the City".  So I don't believe this scene is describing something in Heaven.  I believe it is describing something on this earth, just as Isaiah was describing something on the earth. 

 

I must at least tell you that I believe all young children will be resurrected AFTER the 7th millennium, with "the rest of the dead". 

 

I do not believe that "the rest of the dead" will be all of "the lost" from Eden to the second coming. 

 

The "rest of the dead" will be resurrected with mortal, physical bodies.  They will be those who died in ignorance of God and of Christ, because of circumstance, immaturity, or mental defect.  God "overlooks" all sin committed in ignorance.  These people never "believed", therefore they CANNOT be given eternal life when they are resurrected.  But they CAN be given an extension of their physical lives, be given instruction in the ways of God, and then be allowed to choose whom they will serve. 

 

Samie's belief is that ALL MEN are "saved" (and their names written in the Book of Life) until they consciously reject God, by knowingly continuing in rebellion. 

 

If ignorance = automatic salvation, then there is NO NEED to teach the gospel truth.  Leaving people ignorant is more likely to see them saved. 

 

I believe that all men are "born in sin", and are "lost" until they consciously "believe". 

“by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3)
    “without hope and without God” (Ephesians 2:11-12)

 

Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

 

John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”
 

One CANNOT believe without first receiving information. 

 

    I Thessalonians 3:16   [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

        To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.”

 

    Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS)

    Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

Hearing the gospel message - is essential!  
There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God
or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear, and believe. 

 

And young children must be resurrect so they also can hear, understand, and believe. 

They must choose! 

 

Samie and I debated this in a VERY long thread. 

I do NOT want to be sucked back into that debate, but felt I must at least tell you what I believe. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

The thread where Samie and I debated this topic was:

"Whom did God choose & When were their names written in the Book of Life?"

Started by Samie, Aug 22 2014

[Samie]

...

 

Samie and I debated this in a VERY long thread. 

I do NOT want to be sucked back into that debate, but felt I must at least tell you what I believe. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

So can you at least please tell us why the little children in the holy mountain of God are not among those resurrected with the righteous at the Second Coming of our Lord?

[Stewart (SDA)]

Samie,

 

returning for a moment to Isaiah 11:6-9 about the little children.

 

If this is literal then it would seem absurd to say that a "little child" is 1000+ years old. This poses a real difficulty.

 

But if I might expand slightly on my earlier thought, it strikes me that the animals appear to be having babies too.

 

The "lamb", the "kid", the "young lion" are included in the scene, and the Cows and the Bears also have "young ones" that "shall lie down together" (11:7). So either all God's creatures on the earth will continue to multiply, or this scene is a figurative one... I cannot see any other options.

 

But in your understanding, with regards to the nature of prophecy, is there room for the thought that it may be figurative? I mean, is that a possibility?

[Samie]

Hi Stewart;

 

In vision, the prophet Isaiah saw the little child, the sucking child and the weaned child in the holy mountain of God in the new earth.  To me, the prophet saw them as they are, little children, not 1000+ years old, playing with the animals which on this old earth are currently harmful, but playful and harmless in the new earth.

 

The scene, to me, is literal, depicting how it would be in an environment devoid of sin, where even animals now perceived to be harmful become harmless. 

 

Unlike in Daniel and Revelation, these animals mentioned in Isaiah 11:6-9, to me, are literal, not symbolic.

[JoeMo]

So can you at least please tell us why the little children in the holy mountain of God are not among those resurrected with the righteous at the Second Coming of our Lord?

Pardon me for butting in here; but I thought Rachel did a wonderful job explaining her position in tha aforementioned thread.  It is summed up nicely in her post #31 here where she says:

 

"I believe all young children will be resurrected AFTER the 7th millennium, with "the rest of the dead"...

The "rest of the dead" will be resurrected with mortal, physical bodies. They will be those who died in ignorance of God and of Christ, because of circumstance, immaturity, or mental defect. God "overlooks" all sin committed in ignorance. These people never "believed", therefore they CANNOT be given eternal life when they are resurrected. But they CAN be given an extension of their physical lives, be given instruction in the ways of God, and then be allowed to choose whom they will serve."

 

I like this; and think it has sound scriptural backing.

 

Stewart(SDA) - I really admire the attitude with which you approach these subjects.

[Samie]

Hi JoeMo;

 

If Rachel already opted to no longer participate in this thread, I respect her decision. And since it appears you are trying to speak for her, you can at least explain in her behalf.  I can't remember we have discussed this in the old thread where she said we debated.

 

If, as claimed, children dying before the age of reason will be given chance to choose between God and satan after the millennium, why will there still be sucking child in the holy mountain of God when by the time they can choose God they are no longer infants?

 

You mentioned Rachel's position has a sound Scriptural backing, so it would be relatively easy for you to provide us with the Scriptural basis for your explanation in her behalf.

[JoeMo]

Samie said:

"You mentioned Rachel's position has a sound Scriptural backing, so it would be relatively easy for you to provide us with the Scriptural basis for your explanation in her behalf."

 

Sorry Samie; I don't have time to regurgitatate that thead in its entirety.  I will bubble up the thread with a new post.  You can also see mountains of sound study at www.prophecyviewpoint.com.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hi Stewart;

 

In vision, the prophet Isaiah saw the little child, the sucking child and the weaned child in the holy mountain of God in the new earth.  To me, the prophet saw them as they are, little children, not 1000+ years old, playing with the animals which on this old earth are currently harmful, but playful and harmless in the new earth.

 

The scene, to me, is literal, depicting how it would be in an environment devoid of sin, where even animals now perceived to be harmful become harmless. 

 

Unlike in Daniel and Revelation, these animals mentioned in Isaiah 11:6-9, to me, are literal, not symbolic.

I think I'm still looking at this somewhat differently, Samie.

 

Daniel and Revelation depict animals with specific applications (i.e. the Lion=Babylon,  the Bear=Medo-Persia, etc.), but I'm suggesting that the animals [and children] in Isaiah 11 may not be representative in the same way. The whole scene (of Isa 11:6-9) may be teaching something. And so, rather than focusing on the specific elements, I am trying to consider the picture in a wider sense.

 

To illustrate my thought, I go to Rev 4:8 where four beasts (not resting day and night,) are described as saying "Holy, Holy, Holy..." This, I believe, points us to the tenor of the lives, rather than to an eternal repetition of words. I am trying to consider the picture of Isaiah 11 in the same way. Perhaps the approach cannot work here (in Isaiah 11)... but as God says, "In all that I have said unto you, be you circumspect."

[Samie]

...

 

Sorry Samie; I don't have time to regurgitatate that thead in its entirety.  I will bubble up the thread with a new post.

 

There's nothing in the bubbled up thread regarding babies in the new earth. But I respect your and Rachel's decision not to explain why there are still babies in the holy mountain of God.

[JoeMo]

I don't have any problem with babies or no babies in the Kingdom.  There are more important spiritual questions for me than "will there be babies in heaven?"  Infants who died will be resurrected as infants; whether at the beginning of the millennium or the end of it.  Thats as far as my curiosity in the subject goes.

[8thdaypriest]

There's nothing in the bubbled up thread regarding babies in the new earth. But I respect your and Rachel's decision not to explain why there are still babies in the holy mountain of God.

 

IN MY OPINION:

There will be infants and children at the Holy Mountain of God, BECAUSE they will be raised AS INFANTS,

and they will be raised on the earth, AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium.   They will be raised with "the rest of the dead" (who are NOT all the wicked).

The vision of Isaiah and perhaps of EGW, was a vision of the Messianic Kingdom on the earth, AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, during which the redeemed (adults) from the "first resurrection" will be in the "Father's House" (Heaven) preparing to serve as priests. 

 

At my website, I have posted the entire contents of my book "The 8th Day", which explains my belief concerning this, with supporting Scripture references, so I won't list them here.

[8thdaypriest]

So can you at least please tell us why the little children in the holy mountain of God are not among those resurrected with the righteous at the Second Coming of our Lord?

I've TOLD you WHY Samie - several times.

 

Because they are not mature enough to enter the priesthood.

Every one from the "first resurrection" at the Second Coming, will become a priest "of God and of Christ".

 

God overlooks sins committed in ignorance.  Sins of children are sins of ignorance. 

They are not rebelling against God, because they do not know WHO God is - yet. 

They cannot enter into Covenant with God, thru Christ.

That is why SDAs do not baptize babies.

 

God cannot justly take into His eternal kingdom, those (infants and ignorant) who have NEVER chosen Him. 

 

To choose Him, one must "believe".

To believe, one must have information.  One must hear the truth. (I've already given Scripture to that effect).

Children and those mentally challenged CANNOT understand what they hear, therefore they cannot "choose". 

 

Mrs. White wrote that the slave who died in ignorance would be left dead "like the beast", and that God could not take such a one into His kingdom. 

THAT seems horribly unjust.

But it makes sense, IF you believe that this slave (along with all of those who died in ignorance of God) will be raised at the 8th millennium,

with "the rest of the dead", to be educated in the things of God, and then to be allowed to choose the LORD's way if he so desires. 

 

The priesthood of the redeemed will be the educators. 

Satan will be released at this time, and He will seek to deceive "the nations".

 

There is NO REASON to release Satan to deceive, IF "the rest of the dead" are those already judged worthy of death. 

There is not reason that a period of time should pass, wherein they "build weapons of war". 

The FACT that Satan will be released, tells me that the battle for souls is NOT OVER at the Second Coming. 

 

I realize that Mrs White wrote that she "saw" the destruction of the wicked that she thought was taking place AFTER the 7th millennium.

I just think she might have got the interpretation wrong - concerning the TIMING. 

I think she was "shown" the destruction of the wicked that will take place AT the Second coming. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Samie, on 10 Feb 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

So can you at least please tell us why the little children in the holy mountain of God are not among those resurrected with the righteous at the Second Coming of our Lord?

 

Rachel responds:

I've TOLD you WHY Samie - several times.

 

Because they are not mature enough to enter the priesthood.

Every one from the "first resurrection" at the Second Coming, will become a priest "of God and of Christ".

 

This issue about little children in the holy mountain of God was not among what we discussed in the old topic JoeMo bubbled up. It makes me wonder why you are now saying you've told me your answer many times.

 

BTW, You teach that these little children will be resurrected on the 8th millennium to be given the chance to understand things and must then choose between God and satan. But by that time they ultimately choose God, they have already grown up, and no longer infants.

 

And we are back to square one.

 

So why are there little children in the holy mountain of God?

[LifeHiscost]

God overlooks sins committed in ignorance.  Sins of children are sins of ignorance. 

They are not rebelling against God, because they do not know WHO God is - yet. 

They cannot enter into Covenant with God, thru Christ.

That is why SDAs do not baptize babies.

 

God cannot justly take into His eternal kingdom, those (infants and ignorant) who have NEVER chosen Him.

The FACT that Satan will be released, tells me that the battle for souls is NOT OVER at the Second Coming.

I think she was "shown" the destruction of the wicked that will take place AT the Second coming. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

There is no written evidence in the Word indicating names placed in the book of life, only those taken out, as far as I know. Which assuming that to be true, any who do not achieve the heavenly home will be those who were not written there to begin with, indicating as a result of God's foreknowledge, if an unborn child had no history of sinful conduct, their parent's entrance would assure the unborn child's place in eternity. Could you imagine the mother's sense of personal loss, during the thousand years when the books are gone over, to find her child was excluded from the kingdom even though they had never taken part in any rebellious attitude?

Just my opinion as I am unable to find the SoP or in the Word, that principle.

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

I don't have any problem with babies or no babies in the Kingdom.  There are more important spiritual questions for me than "will there be babies in heaven?"  Infants who died will be resurrected as infants; whether at the beginning of the millennium or the end of it.  Thats as far as my curiosity in the subject goes.

 

This issue about babies in the holy mountain of God is directly related with the writing of names in the book of life. Scriptures make clear that only those whose names are written in the book of life will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals.

 

The fact that resurrected babies are in the holy mountain of God as seen in vision by the prophet Isaiah, tells us succinctly that babies' names are in the book of life, otherwise they won't be there. And we all descendants of Adam & Eve have been babies before! This, to me, is very important because God Who does not play favorites, must have wrote down our names there whether we are now Christians or non-Christians.

 

Very important to me? Why?

 

Because the brand of gospel popularly being preached today tells people that unless a person believes first, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. To me, this tells people indirectly that unless a person first believes his name is not written in the book of life. It then follows that babies who died, having not yet believed, are not yet written in the book of life.

 

This issue then concerns the brand of gospel one brings. And the apostle has warned of a curse to those who preaches a false gospel (Gal 1:8, 9).

[8thdaypriest]

There is no written evidence in the Word indicating names placed in the book of life, only those taken out, as far as I know. Which assuming that to be true, any who do not achieve the heavenly home will be those who were not written there to begin with, indicating as a result of God's forknowledge, if an unborn child had no history of sinful conduct, their parent's entrance would assure the unborn child's place in eternity. Could you imagine the mother's sense of personal loss, during the thousand years when the books are gone over, to find her child was excluded from the kingdom even though they had never taken part in any rebellious attitude?

Just my opinion as I am unable to find the SoP or in the Word, that principle.

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

Do you think that the children or infants of the 24 Elders (now in Heaven) are also there there with them? 

If THEY can wait to see their children again - so can those resurrected at the Second Coming.

 

Philippians 4:3  “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

        Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.”  Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

 

    Malachi 3:16-18  “Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who meditate on His name.  ‘They shall be Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘On the day that I make them My jewels.

 

This doesn't sound like EVERY name was at one time written in that book.

 

Hebrews 12:22-23  [speaking to NT believers]  “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . .”

        Who are registered? The “firstborn” are “registered in heaven”.  God called Israel His “firstborn” (Exo. 4:22).  How do you become an Israelite?  You enter into covenant with God thru Christ, and He then will  circumcised your heart.

[JoeMo]

Samie says,

"And the apostle has warned of a curse to those who preaches a false gospel"

 

I hardly think that what one believes about babies and when they are resurrected is a salvational truth.

[Samie]

Samie says,

"And the apostle has warned of a curse to those who preaches a false gospel"

 

I hardly think that what one believes about babies and when they are resurrected is a salvational truth.

You are not alone in that thought, brother.

 

But when one knows that Scriptures tell that only those whose names are written in the book of life can be allowed entry into the kingdom heaven, and that there are resurrected babies in the holy mountain of God as the prophet Isaiah saw in vision, and yet insists that unless one believes first his name can't be written in the book of life, that to me would be another story.

[Samie]

Do you think that the children or infants of the 24 Elders (now in Heaven) are also there there with them? 

If THEY can wait to see their children again - so can those resurrected at the Second Coming.

 

Philippians 4:3  “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

        Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.”  Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

 

    Malachi 3:16-18  “Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who meditate on His name.  ‘They shall be Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘On the day that I make them My jewels.

 

This doesn't sound like EVERY name was at one time written in that book.

 

Hebrews 12:22-23  [speaking to NT believers]  “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . .”

        Who are registered? The “firstborn” are “registered in heaven”.  God called Israel His “firstborn” (Exo. 4:22).  How do you become an Israelite?  You enter into covenant with God thru Christ, and He then will  circumcised your heart.

 

None in the above verses you quoted explain why there are babies in the holy mountain of God. That the names of Clement and the rest of his fellow workers Paul explicitly said are in the book of life, does not mean Paul's name and your name, are not there.

 

That the firstborn are registered in heaven does not necessarily mean only the firstborn are written in the book of life. Paul may not be a firstborn, neither you may not be a firstborn, nor JoeMo may not be a firstborn, but it does not mean your names are not in the book of life. Moses was not firstborn himself, yet his name is in the book of life.

 

Again, why are there babies in the holy mountain of God?