Understanding the way the Bible speaks...

[Scuba]

When the Bible says something came from God or came from heaven it doesn't literally mean it was in heaven before it came from God. It just means God is the power and authority for it being here.

 

Look at it this way, let's say the President of the United States is sitting in the White House in Washington DC. He gives the order to send troops from Fort Hood Texas to Iran. The generals in Iran will tell their subordinates that Washington is sending troops. That does not mean the troops are coming from Washington. It just means Washington is the authority for them being sent.

 

Let me give you biblical support for this.

 

Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you.

 

God does not have bushel baskets of bread in heaven that He throws down. All the Bible is saying is that the bread is from God.

 

God sent fire, frogs, manna, ice and many other things from heaven but it doesn't mean they literally came from God's throne in heaven it just means God is the authority and power for them being here..

 

When the Bible says someone is sent from God it doesn't mean they literally came from heaven. It just means God is the power and authority for the person being sent.

 

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 

When someone is sent into the world it does not mean they came from heaven. The sending into the world is a horizontal sending into the world, not a vertical sending into the world.

 

John 17:18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

 

When the Bible says someone came into the world it doesn't mean he came from heaven or outer space. It just means he was born.

 

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

 

When the Bible says we are not of this world it does not mean we are from heaven or outer space. It just means we live by a different set of standards we are under a different government and ruler. 

 

John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

 

Just like Jesus is not of this world, we are not of this world. Where are we from? Heaven? Mars? No, we are not part of the ways of the world.

 

John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

[LifeHiscost]

Just like Jesus is not of this world, we are not of this world. Where are we from? Heaven? Mars? No, we are not part of the ways of the world.

 

John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

I'm just wondering why it was seen necessary to explain all of this?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Scuba]

I'm just wondering why it was seen necessary to explain all of this?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Because people are interpreting these verses to mean Jesus literally existed prior to His conception in Mary. I agree that Jesus preexisted in seed form as the seen of Eve, the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. Jesus also preexisted in the plan of God just like Jeremiah did.

 

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

 

Jesus, just like us, was foreordained before the foundation of the world in the plan of God.

 

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

 

Luke 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation.

 

Would you say the prophets were killed before the foundation of the world or would you say God knew it would happen before it happened?

 

According to Revelation 13:8, when was Jesus literally crucified? Before He was born or after He was born?

 

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

All of God's works were first in His mind as a finished plan before they became reality.

 

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

 

Everything existing in creation was first in the mind of God as a plan long before it became reality. You could say that the goings forth of Jesus was from old in the plan of God just like Jeremiah's goings forth was from old in the plan of God. In other words, his life was all laid out for him.

 

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

 

Everything we see in creation, including Jesus Christ, was hidden in God in plan form. The details of God's have been a secret contained within His mind until the time He chose to reveal it to us.

 

Matthew 13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

 

Even Jesus was foreordained in the mind of God as a plan before He became reality through His conception in Mary.

 

1 Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

 

To say that the man Jesus literally preexisted His birth is to make Jesus more than human. It's a different Jesus.

From before the foundation of the world, from before sin, from before any of us existed God had a plan. It was a secret that was reveal over time through prophetic language. Listen to the secret plan God had long before it became reality. 

 

Ephesians 1:9 God told us the secret of what He wanted to do. It is this: In loving thought He planned long ago to send Christ into the world.

 

Every verse in the Old Testament, regarding Jesus, is in prophetic language. In other words, it has not yet happened. Listen to the future plan of God for Jesus. Notice the future promise of having a born Son seen in the words, "Shall be".

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

When this was written by Isaiah God did not yet have a literal Son. We have interpreted the Bible to make it sound like Jesus preexisted, in the same way, the Bible has been interpreted to say Sunday is the Lord's day.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

this thread is kinda creepy

 

(even though I know the intent is to be explanatory)....  

[Scuba]

Why creepy?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

not sure... it just strikes me that way...

[Scuba]

not sure... it just strikes me that way...

I've been called a heretick, but never creepy. lol

[Scuba]

Here is the genealogy of Jesus' son-ship of God according to Matthew.

 

Matthew 1:1-16 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham: Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram, Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon, Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife, Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa, Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram, Jehoram the father of Uzziah, Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah, and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon. After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, Zerubbabel the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor, Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Elihud, Elihud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

 

Here is the genealogy of Jesus according to Luke. Luke takes the non-literal preexistence of Jesus all the way back to Adam.

 

Luke 3:23-38 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josek, the son of Joda, the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

 

Here we have a clear bloodline of Jesus. There is no way Jesus could have preexistence as God's Son prior to becoming God's Son at His birth. 

 

Some will say that prior to Jesus' birth He was the word but the word, logos, is not a person. Anytime the logos of God was communicated it was always through God's Spirit. Even creation itself was done through God's Spirit including the conception of Jesus in the womb of Mary.

 

Jesus Himself said it was God who created us, not Him.

 

Matthew 19:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you not read that God made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female.'

 

Mark 10:5-6 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I've been called a heretick, but never creepy. lol

 

 you aren't creepy, Scuba!  Post #3 just struck me that way..  

[LifeHiscost]

How do you define these scriptures?

 

…3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....1 Cor 10

 

20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,....Ephesians 2

 

How could Jesus be a Chief corner stone of the apostles and the prophets if He wasn't from everlasting? A scriptural answer would satisfy my own method of determining Truth. Especially as it is the only method Jesus told us we can be free.

 

5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…John 14

 

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."....John 8

 

 

1In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

2He existed in the beginning with God.

3God created everything through him,

and nothing was created except through him.

4The Word gave life to everything that was created,^a

and his life brought light to everyone.

14So the Word became human^d and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.^e And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son....John 1

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Scuba]

How do you define these scriptures?

 

…3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....1 Cor 10

 

 

Paul is speaking spiritually here when he says spiritual drink, spiritual rock. He then equates Jesus to these things. In other words, the same way the spiritual drink and the spiritual rock sustained them, Jesus will do the same thing. Jesus was never a literal rock nor was He literal water. This is all spiritual symbolism and typology. 

 

20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,....Ephesians 2

 

How could Jesus be a Chief corner stone of the apostles and the prophets if He wasn't from everlasting? A scriptural answer would satisfy my own method of determining Truth. Especially as it is the only method Jesus told us we can be free.

 

 

Jesus does not have to have a preexistence in order to be the chief corner stone. All He has to be is the prophesied Messiah, the one the Bible spoke about. Listen to Moses refer to Jesus as the future coming Prophet that God will raise to be like Moses, we are to listen to Him.

 

Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear.

 

5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…John 14

 

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."....John 8

 

 

Again, Jesus did not have to have a literal preexistence in order to be the way the truth and life.

 

 

1In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

2He existed in the beginning with God.

3God created everything through him,

and nothing was created except through him.

4The Word gave life to everything that was created,^a

and his life brought light to everyone.

14So the Word became human^d and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.^e And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son....John 1

 

 

The word in John 1 is the word, logos. Whatever you want to make logos to be it wan't a person. As a matter of fact, Jesus and logos are used in the same sentence which indicates two different entities. 

 

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God.

 

Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

 

Revelation 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The word of God is eternal and Jesus had a beginning. Jesus had to be obedient to the word of God.

 

Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

[Scuba]

Moses said that God would, in the future, raise up a Prophet like Moses. He says when this happens we are told to listen to Him.

Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear.

Why wait until this happens in order to listen to Him? Why not listen to Him right then and there?