Robert Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The First Angel’s Message http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels2.htm phkrause 1 Quote
Robert Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 The Second Angel’s Message http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels3.htm Quote
Robert Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 The Third Angel’s Message http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels4.htm Quote
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The First Angel’s Message http://www.jacksequeira.org/3angels2.htm Not to counter or contradict Jack Sequeira's presentation, but I do seem to look at these things quite differently. May I share a thought on this ? Revelation 14:6-7 “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people...” The people of the first angel’s message HAVE the everlasting gospel. But what comes out of their mouths -- what they SAY -- is quite specific. (What they say relates to the hour of His judgment.) But what is that? What is it to HAVE the everlasting gospel? “The whole gospel is comprised in learning of Christ His meekness and lowliness.” (20MR 117) “The whole gospel” – all the glad tidings, all the good news that comes down from heaven – is bound up in this one thing: Learning from Christ His meekness and lowliness (Matt 11:29). This lesson is at the heart of the everlasting gospel, and without these qualities, every gospel message is, in the end, transitory and fleeting – it will have no power to bring an end. If we HAVE the gospel in our hearts and minds, we will NOT go out as "superiors". Our manner [and our teachings] will have a power to draw and to convince; we will go out as labourers together with God. If we have the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, then let us venture out and say with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come..." Quote
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The First angel is flying "in the midst of heaven". I suggest that the "heaven" referred to here, is the terrestrial sky. It is the place where the birds fly. (Strongs #3321) This, I suggest refers to a place where what is done can be seen and heard by all. When the first angel's message sounds "in verity", it will have such prominence that no-one will miss it. Everybody will make some kind of decision relating to what he says. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The FIRST angel's message is: "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth." Seventh-day Adventists interpret this passage in the context of William Miller's preaching concerning the 2300 "days", believing that an "investigative judgment" began in heaven on October 22nd, 1844. Let me explain WHY I do not believe this doctrine. 1. Jesus said, ""My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (Joh 10:27 NKJ) He does NOT need 175+ years to decide which human beings belong to Him, and which do not. 2. IT DOES NOT FIT THE TYPES The "Spring types" were fulfilled day for day, type for type. Even Mrs. White said, "The Fall type will be fulfilled in like manner". Passover took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. First Fruits took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. Pentecost took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. Which would mean that the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy will take place WITHIN ONE DAY. The High Priest (Jesus), along with the "fit man" (Jesus) must complete all of the events associated with the Day of Atonement on ONE DAY. 3. THE SCAPEGOAT HAS NOT YET BEEN BANISHED TO 'the pit" The "scapegoat" was banished ON THE SAME DAY that the High Priest entered into the Most Holy Place with the blood of the "Lord's goat". Satan has NOT YET been banished, therefore - I do not believe - that the Day of Atonement prophecy has already begun. 4. THE WRONG CLOTHING IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE Mrs. White wrote that she was shown what took place in Heaven on October 22nd, 1844. This was AFTER Mr. Edson reported a vision of Christ entering the Most Holy Place. Here is the Bible concerning the Day of Atonement apparel: “And the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at simply any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat. Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. He shall put the Holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash he body in water, and put them on. ........For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. It is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever.” Leviticus 16:2-4, 31-32. NOTE: The attire commanded for the High Priest on the Day of Atonement was plain white linen not the glorious garments with the ephod. Here is Mrs. White's report of her vision" “I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate.” Early Writings pg. 55 Comment: First - note that she places the Father in the first apartment prior to 1844. Second - according to the Bible the “Golden Garments” with blue ephod, the bells and the pomegranates were to be worn continuously - at all times when ministering in the Sanctuary, except in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. Another vision: “[The Sealing] At the commencement of the Holy Sabbath, (Jan. 5th, 1849,) we engaged in prayer with Bro. Belden's family at Rocky Hill, Con., and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. I was taken off in vision to the Most Holy Place, where I saw Jesus still interceding for Israel. On the bottom of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the Most Holy Place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished his work in the Most Holy Place, laid off his priestly attire and clothed himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man, and God will keep silence no longer; but pour out his wrath on those who have rejected his truth.” A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White pg 19 A statement from Patriarchs and Prophets “The most important part of the daily ministration was the service performed in behalf of individuals. ... By his own hand the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary.” Patriarchs and Prophets, p.354 NOTE: Blood was not carried into the Holy Place on a daily basis. There were two occasions when blood was carried into the Holy Place and sprinkled before the veil. First: the blood of the sin offering for a priest. (Leviticus 4:3-12); Second: the blood of the sin offering for the whole Israelite community (Leviticus 4:13-21). [On the Day of Atonement, the blood of the two sin offerings was combined.] Rather than carry blood into the Holy Place on a daily basis, the priest was to eat a portion of the sacrifice. He thus became the “sin bearer” taking the sin into himself, and bearing that sin into the Sanctuary. In so doing he represented Christ. “But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire” (Leviticus 6:30, Hebrews 13:10-11). 5. THE SHUT DOOR According to Leviticus, probation CLOSED for individual Israelites WHEN the High Priest entered the Most Holy Place, with the blood of the LORD's goat, on the Day of Atonement. They - with the scapegoat, were "cut off" from Israel. For 7 years following October 22nd, 1844 THAT is exactly what Ellen White taught, and what she wrote was confirmed to her by vision. NOTE: "The nations" were NOT JUDGED on Yom Kippur. ONLY Israel and the informed mixed multitude were judged on THAT day. In February of 1845 Mrs. White received another vision confirming the closed door. She speaks of this vision in a letter to Joseph Bates, written in 1848. The vision took place while she was in a meeting with believers who had not accepted the doctrine of the shut door. Because of the vision given to her at that moment, the group - including a woman teacher who had been very opposed - accepted the shut door doctrine. The following is a passage from the letter written by Mrs. White to Joseph Bates. “The view about the Bridegroom’s coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others. Many of them did not believe in the shut door. I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting. Unbelief [in the shut door] seemed to be on every hand. There was one sister there that was called very spiritual. She traveled and [had] been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel. But a division had risen in the band on the shut door. She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut. I had known nothing of their difference.” “At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I feel from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest, the Bridegroom to receive His kingdom. They all said it was entirely new to them. The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts. Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her. When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben’s singing and shouting with a loud voice. Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to come to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month. I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom’s going to the Holiest.” Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg.97 - “Three Early Letters” Mrs. White later wrote: “With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point.” Selected Messages Book 1, p. 74, (Written in 1874.) There are several other reasons WHY I do NOT BELIEVE that the final Day of Atonement began in Heaven on Oct. 22, 1844. I've listed the main problems I see. Shalom, Rachel Cory Prophecy Viewpoint JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
LifeHiscost Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 If we HAVE the gospel in our hearts and minds, we will NOT go out as "superiors". Our manner [and our teachings] will have a power to draw and to convince; we will go out as labourers together with God. If we have the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, then let us venture out and say with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come..." As to that 1st sentence above, 1 Corinthians 12 is very thorough in dealing with arrogance or any sense of superiority as a healthy Christian attitude. When one considers that all our right doings are as filthy rags, it becomes easy to accept our own feebleness as a reason for leaning on Christ's righteousness for assurance of being accepted as part of the body of Christ. As to preaching the everlasting gospel with the necessary unsavory thoughts of a coming judgment, if one presents the thoughts of judgment before convincing one of Gods' unending character as Love without diminishing, it brings the opposite result than what we strive for, which is assurance in a saving Lord, capable of cleaning us up so we can appreciate all of His holy universal control. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 The FIRST angel's message is: "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth." ... Rachel, I am wondering where you see the First Angel's Message in terms of it's timing? Although, perhaps we could treat the TIMING of the hour of judgment as an aside... but that an hour of judgment does actually occur before Jesus returns -- that point is not in question... is it? Even if the SDA church were to abandon its reasoning about 1844, doesn't the angel still teach that a period of judgement begins at some point before the "mark of the beast", before the plagues, and before Jesus' return? Do you see what I'm trying to say here Rachel? (I think it could be put better, but I've just finished working a night shift.) Quote
8thdaypriest Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Rachel, I am wondering where you see the First Angel's Message in terms of it's timing? Although, perhaps we could treat the TIMING of the hour of judgment as an aside... but that an hour of judgment does actually occur before Jesus returns -- that point is not in question... is it? Even if the SDA church were to abandon its reasoning about 1844, doesn't the angel still teach that a period of judgement begins at some point before the "mark of the beast", before the plagues, and before Jesus' return? Do you see what I'm trying to say here Rachel? (I think it could be put better, but I've just finished working a night shift.) I believe that Daniel Cpt 7 is an END TIME prophecy. The Court is called into session in Heaven, WHILE the Beast with the "little horn" is trampling the remnant on the earth. The "war with the saints" ENDS when the Ancient of Days comes into the judgment scene (Dan. 7:21-22). A judgment is IMMEDIATELY made in favor of "the saints of the Most High" and it is "time" for them to possess the kingdom. The last 1260 days of persecution has not yet even begun, so how can we say that the Ancient of Days has already come into the Judgment Hall of Heaven (back in 1844)? AFTER "the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame", Daniel wrote that lives of the "rest of the beasts" were prolonged for a season and a time." The "rest of the beasts" would be (the Lion, the Bear, and the Leopard). So how can these three beasts be ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece? (See Daniel 7:11-12). These are kingdoms that are still around at the END - when the judgment sits in heaven. And NO - I do NOT BELIEVE that the 1260 "days" ended in 1798. John said that "one of his heads" - one head on the Beast with 7 heads - received a deadly wound, and that wound was healed AND THEN - AFTER that wound was healed all the world maraveled and followed the beast, and worshiped the beast, and worshiped the dragon, and the BEAST was given a mouth, (The mouthpiece for the Beast is the False Prophet.) and he was given authority to continue for 42 months = 1260 days = time, times and a part. The LAST period of persecution for 42 months comes at the END of this age. It did NOT END in 1798. The people who lived thru the "great disappointment" believed that Jesus HAD ENTERED into Judgment, and would be returning within 7 years, so they had to find reasons to believe that all those prophecies were fulfilled in the PAST. I don't blame them. But they were WRONG. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 The "two witnesses" give a message of impending judgment. They predict "plagues". Before the ancient Day of Atonement, trumpets were sounded each day for 10 days - as a warning. Certainly, God will sound warnings before the final Day of Atonement. These are the trumpet judgments. WARNING...WARNING...WARNING... And NO - I don't believe the "two witnesses" will be only two men. I believe they will be Smyrna and Philadelphia - the only two lamps left burning, after the other 5 have been removed. They will be like Moses and Elijah, because they will have the Elijah message, and the Moses message. At the END of the 42 months, (Yup - it's the SAME time period.) the two witnesses are killed, and stay dead for 3 and a part days. (It is possible that they are only under a death penalty watch - not literally dead.) Then they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven (at the 7th trumpet). This is the Second Coming. When the 7th trumpet sounds - it is TIME for God to reward his servants the prophets and the saints (Rev. 11:18) AND to "destroy those who destroy the earth." The 7th trumpet sounds at the Second Coming!! So - back to your question as to TIMING - Stewart. I believe the messages of the 3 angels will be given during the time period when "the Beast" is revealed to his fullest, during the last 3 and a part years. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I know that all the prophecy buffs are going to jump into this thread with their explanations of "the beast" and his "little horn". That was not my purpose. I was trying to give a context for the first angels message of "the hour (the time) of His judgment has come". Quote 8thdaypriest
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 ... So - back to your question as to TIMING - Stewart. I believe the messages of the 3 angels will be given during the time period when "the Beast" is revealed to his fullest, during the last 3 and a part years. Thank you for the thoughts, but I do think that it is best to leave 1844, 1798, etc. completely to one side. I am not going to defend them. (I am hopeful that nobody else tries to at the moment.) So yes... back to the timing of the First Angel's Message of Revelation 14. Am I correct in saying that you put "the hour of His judgment" in the future, but prior to the Second Advent? There is going to be a Pre-Advent judgment, but that judgment has not yet begun? Quote
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I know that all the prophecy buffs are going to jump into this thread with their explanations of "the beast" and his "little horn". That was not my purpose. I was trying to give a context for the first angels message of "the hour (the time) of His judgment has come". Rachel, in terms of the immediate context of the first angel, is this true? -- something we can "nail down" securely is the fact that the announcement of the hour of judgment PRECEDES the warning against receiving the mark of the beast? I am confident that we can easily agree on this point. Because of course it is "The Third Angel", which follows the first two, that gives the warning against the "mark", and the consequences of receiving that "mark". (The judgment is announced before the warning about the mark goes out.) So the beginning of the judgment precedes that "test" which shall come upon the whole world? And the beginning of the judgment precedes the call to God's people that are still in "Babylon" to come out? These things we can easily agree on? Quote
8thdaypriest Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Stewart, In my opinion, the "hour of His judgment", is NOT the exact moment that Christ enters the judgment hall for the Court scene of Daniel 7:9-10. SDAs have made this "hour of His judgment" just about 1844. I don't believe that's what this message IS. The word "hour" can also mean "the time of" in a more general way. The last witnesses will warn the world that God is about to pour out His judgment (punishment/wrath) upon those who serve the Beast. That in fact - God is (at that time) already pouring out judgments on mankind in the form of the trumpet plagues. To serve the Beast IS to persecute the people who "keep the Commandments of God". To "worship" means to serve. To worship/serve the Beast is to take a stand AGAINST Christ. Many people will be hiding, trying NOT to take a stand so as NOT to suffer persecution. I see this all the time in my small East Texas town. Individuals love the teaching that the second death is just "death", not some torture or eternity. But then they get scared that they will loose their social support network, their church, their friends, so they don't openly espouse the doctrine. One woman told me that she was going to be a "closet conditionalist". Her husband is a big elder in their church. Much of his business comes from church associations. He can't afford to damage his reputation with them. The message of the "last witnesses" is that it's time. You MUST take a stand. Think for a moment about Elijah's confrontation with the prophets of Baal. This WAS judgment day for those prophets of Baal. 1. 3.5 years of drought, during which the King tried to kill Elijah and the prophets of the LORD (Time period of prophecy and persecution = 42 months.) 2. All of Israel is gathered to Mt Carmel (Rev. 14:1-5 victorious Israel standing on Mt Zion) 3. 850 prophets of Baal and Ashera gathered also for the showdown 4. Elijah says "You must choose." [This is the "come out of her My people" message.] How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." (1Ki 18:21 NKJ) 5. Two sacrifices are prepared. One for Yahweh. One for Baal. [Christ is the ONE true sacrifice. The Beast and False Prophet set up a different one.] 6. Elijah says, "Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God." 7. Jesus Christ will "answer by fire". 8. The 850 prophets of Baal and Ashera were killed by the servants of Yahweh. [At the SC, the false prophets and servants of the Beast will be killed.] The last message is that everyone MUST take a stand. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Stewart, I think you're trying to say that the "hour" of his judgment comes BEFORE the 2nd and 3rd message, so that means the "hour" of His judgment CANNOT BE the last day of this age. 1. I think the messages are almost simultaneous. 2. And "the hour of his judgment" is NOT the exact time when HE enters the heavenly judgment hall. The time of his judgment begins with the warning trumpets. The trumpets ARE judgments, just like the drought/famine was a judgment on Israel in the days of Elijah. Quote 8thdaypriest
LifeHiscost Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 This morning the Holy Spirit reminded me of something that I would suggest 100% of those who long to see Jesus will find especially reassuring. I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.…John 15 "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"…Hebrews 13 …11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life...1 John 5 We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.g 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...1 Thess 4 Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18So encourage each other with these words....1 Thess4 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Stewart, I think you're trying to say that the "hour" of his judgment comes BEFORE the 2nd and 3rd message, so that means the "hour" of His judgment CANNOT BE the last day of this age. 1. I think the messages are almost simultaneous. 2. And "the hour of his judgment" is NOT the exact time when HE enters the heavenly judgment hall. The time of his judgment begins with the warning trumpets. The trumpets ARE judgments, just like the drought/famine was a judgment on Israel in the days of Elijah. Rachel, the more I read of your comments, the more I see that we are using the terms differently. For example we understand the "hour of His judgment" to be a 'judicial' kind of judgment, whereas you understand it to be "judgment" in terms of disaster and death. I think we need to be moving much more slowly, and looking at things point by point. When you write about Jesus entering the "heavenly judgment hall", do you understand that that "hall" is the place from which He pours out the judgments, i.e. droughts and famines, etc. upon the earth, RATHER THAN His entering that hall and sitting down to undertake a judicial proceeding? ______________________ Something else I am interested in, is your saying that the hour of his judgment "is NOT the exact time when HE enters the heavenly judgment hall". I am not sure where you are coming from with this. I'm not aware of any SDAs teaching that the hour of His judgment is the "exact time" of His entrance. We have always taught that that "hour" is a period of time, in the same sense that the "hour of temptation" mentioned in Rev 3:10 refers to a period of time. But of course any such period of time has a definite beginning. Quote
Stewart (SDA) Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Stewart, I think you're trying to say that the "hour" of his judgment comes BEFORE the 2nd and 3rd message, so that means the "hour" of His judgment CANNOT BE the last day of this age. 1. I think the messages are almost simultaneous. 2. And "the hour of his judgment" is NOT the exact time when HE enters the heavenly judgment hall. The time of his judgment begins with the warning trumpets. The trumpets ARE judgments, just like the drought/famine was a judgment on Israel in the days of Elijah. Yes, I am trying to say that the hour of His judgment is announced [as having begun] before the Second and Third Angel's messages are given. _________ Like you, we also teach, in a sense, that the three angel's messages are simultaneous. But we have the first angel speaking alone for a while, until the second angel joins him, and then they speak together (simultaneously). Revelation 14:8 says that this second angel "followed" the first. The Greek word (Strongs #190), normally translated "followed", contains the idea of "going with", or "accompanying"; so yes, we do teach that their work is, to a certain extent, simultaneous... Cumulative, and simultaneous. Their harmonious voices blend... but as each new voice is added, it has its "time" leading out. (And yet none of them are silenced in the lead-up to Jesus' return.) This has been [and remains] an element of our teaching regarding the messengers of Revelation 14. Quote
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