I was really really bad, now I am really really good...

[Stan]

Not me...

BUT...

Think about this...

There are a lot of people, professionals and non professionals that are living a good life, when they are 'witnessed' to by a 'born again' it can be irritating and they do not relate. "well that may be of use for you, but I have never..... whatever..

Example, ' I WAS REALLY REALLY BAD, AND NOW I AM REALLY REALLY GOOD' it is just not relative to these folks. It is like saying you need to eat the dung from a swine to enjoy a sweetness and flavor a British Columbia grown peach. Just CRAZY..

What about reaching out to the secular mind, who has decent morals? Can we do that? Is here 12 people who could commit time and money to do this? AND yes it costs. What would the internet outreach look like? Well I am not sure. I can say it would not include those who argue if the sliver in our bothers eye is from a spruce tree or a pine tree, and to decide if it was put there by a Baptist, Muslim or perhaps a Catholic..

It would take a commitment of funds to buy ads and the other things it takes to open communication. I would not want to be the one who even handles this money, someone else would have to. Even though this forum does cost me every month, some people feel that it is a source of income to me.

Please message me if you are interested., and we can start to figure out what this would look like, I am sure it is big enough that we could partner with the a Conference for Charitable receipts. In order to do this right, i suspect we would need a dozen people to provide at least $100.00 per month.

One of the Barristers I work with is like the target group I would like to reach. This man was an Engineer, and successful, but felt 'empty and unfulfilled', he then thought it was his career and went back and got a Law Degree. Thinking that was the problem solver. Guess what? Did not happen, he was introduced to Christ, not the sparkle and glitz shallow Christ, but the one has substance, he finally GOT IT.

There are thousands who go to bed every night, and are empty. A spot in their heart that can only be filled by Christ.

There are other groups that need to be reached as well, BUT I know of nothing that seeks out professionals, that are not 'touching bottom' who would be blessed by this wonderful messages we have.

I am thankful for those who have lead the way in preparing the advent message for me. What a gift this has been

[Stan]

One of the realities is this

IF WE DO NOT REACH THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE... NONE OF US ARE GOING HOME.

What is it going to take? I am not realy sure. Other than Time, Money, Prayer and Passion

[Stan]

AND for Clarification, It may be on this server, but not part of this forum or domain name.

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Stan Jensen said:

One of the realities is this

IF WE DO NOT REACH THIS GROUPE OF PEOPLE... NONE OF US ARE GOING HOME.

What is it going to take? I am not realy sure. Other than Time, Money, Prayer and Passion

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You really hit home with that statement. I have been saying it for years and no one appears to find it viable.

We can go to the ends of the earth seeking to testify and save, but the neighbor down the street has never heard the message.

Why? They usually appear unapproachable. YOu are enertained in their homes and they are kind, gracious people who appear to want for nothing. They donate to the "right" organizations. Do the fund raising and donating for many very worthwhile causes. They are not the addicts, the abused or undernurshed.

But, you know when you are playing a round of golf, or having your nails done it is amazing what these same people share.

No one is going to stand up and brag about saving a couple from the desperation of living in a million dollar home. But, if we don't do it. If we don't met them on their level ... well, you said it ... NONE OF US ARE GOING HOME!

IMHO, we don't reach out to them because we are inadequately trained and conditioned. Or, just really feel insecure.

Together we can do it ..... Let's find a way, cause I wanta get off this Old Ball Of Mud

Naomi

[Naomi]

Stan, I realize that I am probably going overboard, but I am excited to know that there are those who are interested in reaching the Professionals. FWIW, I don't think it should be on this domain.

Just a thought as I read your post. (And, I am sure I will get blasted for this statement)

When dealing with people in a professional setting it is always a good idea to establish a common interest, connection, etc.

Often I see our members going out and immediately telling brothers & sisters in other churches or who are unchurched how wrong their thinking may be and pound on them about what is the "real" truth. It is a turnoff.

At this point I must confess to feeling somewhat guilty about not using every contact, whether in an airport, cafe or Boardroom, as a time to witness. I do believe that the greatest sermons ever preached are preached with no words. They are lived.

I hate it when a person begans "witnessing" to me. When it is unsolicited you feel trapped like you are supposed to say or do something. Fall down on your knees in the middle of the elevator or something.

The only thing that will get any of us to Heaven is our personal relationship with Jesus. Until that is firmly established, all the do's and do not's are worthless.

We do things that our families, friends or spouses like because we love them. And, that is the only reason to obey God's law.

As an example, when I was preparing for the Global Evangelism trip many people from more than one church knew I was going. Now anyone who knows me, knows that I am not flush in gold and silver. But, no one even suggested that if I needed a little financial help that they would like to contribute.

I gave it no thought until I was working a trade show in Denver on Wednesday before I was to leave the next Sunday.

I was having lunch with my buyer from a large wholesale house and memtioned that I would be going to Romania on Sunday. He looked a little surprised and asked the reason for my trip and I briefly explained it to him.

Now, please understand, I have known this fellow for several years and he and his company are a major account for me. But, I have never mentioned anything about religion. Other than perhaps to comment on "prayers being answered" or something along those lines.

He asked who was "picking up the tab" and I said just me. He took out his billfold and opened it, he took out $300 dollars and asked it that would help.

Another fellow came up at that time and made a joke about backroom deals. My client told him what the money was to be used for.

The second man gave me $100. I was in shock and told them I would see if I could get some kind of receipt for taxes. They both said not to worry. Just go and do God's work.

Before I left the show one of them asked, "What denomination are you affiliated with?" I told him. He appeared either confused or surprised and said, go do a good job and we'll talk later. Gave me a hug and walked away.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

We have to establish a relationship with the individual, on their level before we can help them establish a relationship with God.

That's just an off-the-top of my head about how I would approach this type of ministry.

Naomi

[Taylor]

Stan, what an incredibly neat idea!

Actually, I've thought about this alot through the years. It has pained me know know that as Adventist we do a great job of reaching the poor of this world, after all, since they have nothing, heaven looks pretty good.

However, we have not done well with secular society. These people are good people, they are moral, they are often financially fine, but they see NO need for God in their lives. It's not that they are "hell bent" it's just that it has never occured to them that they are missing anything or need anything. They firmly believe in "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps", and being champions in causes like "searching for a cure for Aids", "protecting the enviornment", and "living responsibly." This is all good and well, but as Adventists (and Christians in general) we have not known how to reach them.

The thing is that these kinds of people live in every society, in every country in the world. It is perhaps the last "frontier" that has rarely been crossed. It's bigger than the 10/40 window as it extends around the world, and in some countries, it accounts for most of the people living there.

We've got to do something to reach these people (and eventually in multiple languages too). They have just as much value as the precious people who came to our meetings in India who were hungry for the truth.

The secuar person will never darken the door of a church (at least not at first), will not come to some evangelist meetings, respond to the colporteur at their door (and yes I've met them when I was a student LE. They were polite, gracious but usually not interested, no matter what your pitch was. Sometimes they were interested in the "medical books" we carried but certainly not the "religious ones". ) They are not going to go to a Christian bookstore to read a book by Max Lucado, forget any SDA author etc.

However, they are often well read, sophistocated and self-assured, AND well connected to the internet. Can't wait to see how this all develops!

[Taylor]

Naomi, you are not going overboard. I am really excited about this idea too! And your story was incredible! Thanks so much for sharing!!

[Dr. Shane]

I believe there is a chapter in Ministry of Healing about reaching out to the wealthy. I don't know of an efforts by the church to do so. If you could get a conferance involved so donations are tax deductable I suspect it will be much easier to find support. Not only would it make the donations deductable but it would also place the blessing of the church on it.

[Nan]

At least in this country, donations to such a cause would never be tax deductible.

Stan, this is a wonderful idea and Naomi's story is very encouraging. I often wonder (of myself) if living the life, without being very vocal, is a copout.

I will be watching developments with great interest and will contact you if something of which I feel I can be a part, happens.

[Taylor]

Quote:

---

Naomi said:

Often I see our members going out and immediately telling brothers & sisters in other churches or who are unchurched how wrong their thinking may be and pound on them about what is the "real" truth. It is a turnoff.

I hate it when a person begans "witnessing" to me. When it is unsolicited you feel trapped like you are supposed to say or do something. Fall down on your knees in the middle of the elevator or something.

The only thing that will get any of us to Heaven is our personal relationship with Jesus. Until that is firmly established, all the do's and do not's are worthless.

We do things that our families, friends or spouses like because we love them. And, that is the only reason to obey God's law.

We have to establish a relationship with the individual, on their level before we can help them establish a relationship with God.

Naomi

---

Amen!

[Naomi]

"..... where two or three are gathered together ....."

Just look at the talent and enthusiam which has been generated by Stan's post. As Taylor said it has also been my personal burden for a long time for me.

I have mentioned it to a few leaders of our denomination and have been told, "Well find a way and just do it!" OK so this is a start, Stan, Taylor, Nan, Shane whoever ... let's find a way and JUST DO IT!

A thought that has popped into my head over the past few years is the Internet Clubs which also offer a "Meet-Up" in various places.

I have met some really nice people in some of the towns which I have visited.

It begans with the interaction on the internet and later can develop into a person taking responsibility to organize and send invitations out to members to met at "Jane's Natural Food & Juice Bar" or Barnes & Nobel. Places which are easily accessable, non-threatening. Trendy, upscale places.

Personally when alone for an extended period I check out to see who is meeting where. Drive by first in the daytime to check out the neighborhood and surroundings. Then arrive early and hangour "shopping" until I see the type of people arriving. If they appear to be people I would want to associate with I join ... if not I can safely leave. I think that is the way most people approach a met-up.

People can come alone and feel secure because they can leave if they don't like the appearance of the group. The few which I have attended were all peofessional people who dressed and behaved in a professional manner. They are the middle to upper class who are missing something in their lives and need companionship outside of the office.

They have everything but have an empty place ... we can be there to give them the answer. But, this is not going to be a mission project that will produce instant, mind-blowing results. But, we can reach the hard-to-reach on their terms with their guard down.

Just an idea

Naomi

[Taylor]

Love it Naomi! Sounds like a winner for me. I have never done what you are talking about, but I have met some really nice people in places like Barns and Noble by just having someone ask me or I ask them...where to find a particular book or something. There are some great people in every community which we just don't find by traditional ways.

[Dr. Shane]

A ministry to the wealthy has likely been neglected because it is hard ground. It is probbally like ministering to American Indians or homosexuals. These are very hard groups to reach so success cannot be counted in numbers. Ministries directed to the poor, afflicted or criminal result in a much larger number of souls won to the Lord. That is not to say we shouldn't reach out to these hard-to-reach groups. It just means we need to be prepared for working hard ground.

[Taylor]

Absolutely. It will be tough, but whether the secular are wealthy or not, they are seeking for meaining and happiness in life and need to be reached by some means. True, it has been hard to reach them, not only because it is hard, but because it's more "exciting" to be able to report numbers of baptisms at the end of a year. We need to be reaching the poor, middle class, rich, secular, religious and any other group that can be named.

[LynnDel]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

One of the Barristers I work with is like the target group I would like to reach. This man was an Engineer, and successful, but felt 'empty and unfulfilled', he then thought it was his career and went back and got a Law Degree. Thinking that was the problem solver. Guess what? Did not happen, he was introduced to Christ, not the sparkle and glitz shallow Christ, but the one has substance, he finally GOT IT.

There are thousands who go to bed every night, and are empty. A spot in their heart that can only be filled by Christ.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What is it that would catch their attention? -- "I was successful but empty, and now I am filled?"

I am interested in your project, Stan. Are there any teaming possibilities - someone with $ (not me) teaming up with someone who is interested and willing (me)?

LynnDel

[Clio]

For 5 years I ran a forum on delphi called Christian Women and Relationships. I started it from nothing as a non-denominational Christian Women's place of refuge.

We covered topics from every imaginable walk of life and motherhood. We had single women, married women, widows, grandmothers, twenty-somethings, you name her, she was represented.

We also had some gentlemen who posted regularly. We had a monthly swap box program called simple abundance. It was a secret until your box came, and we changed partners each month. We had studies on different prayer principles, we ran an online study on the Power of a Praying Wife and prayed for our husbands consistently for 12 months as part of the study. We did a study using the book Shattering Your Strongholds - twice, the healing and miracles were amazing.

We wrote a recipe book and donated the proceeds to charity. We started a helping hands forum, where people could post what they needed, and what they had, and could send it swap it, or help as the Lord moved them.

As the forum grew, we began to get regular visitors who were not Christian, but who would come and try to understand the mindsets of their Christian friends and stay because to their fascination with Jesus as He shone in each one's life.

And you know what? The only doctrine we ever discussed was Jesus as a Risen Saviour and how to make our relationship with Him more vital, more representive of our relationship with our husband or with others in our lives.

I am still in touch with some of those ladies whose lives we touched and there are friendships I value very highly whom I will probably never get to meet this side of heaven.

Some of them now keep Sabbath, not because they became SDA's, in fact most of them abhor SDA's from what contact they've had with them. But through study on their own, and the studies entered into because of a response to the Holy Spirit, all of them experienced a regeneration, a restoration and renewal in the relationship with Jesus, in their marriages, and in all the important relationships in their lives.

I was privileged to watch as the Holy Spirit led one lady and her family from a cult church, where nevertheless the family had learned to pray, to another mainstream Sunday Keeping church where the family learned about disciple-ship, to home churches, and then from their studies in home churches to tithing, keeping the Sabbath, and looking forward eagerly to Jesus Second Coming. Since they home-churched their tithing took the form of helping the poor and destitute, even when they didn't have enough for themselves.

It was awesome and amazing. Unfortunately, I was unable to keep up with it after hubby got sick. It lent itself very well to being a ministry that appealed to the group you just described. Delphi has a great setup.

Clio