Presbyterian Minister Doesn’t Believe in God Yet Defends His Christianity

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Presbyterian Minister Doesn’t Believe in God Yet Defends His Christianity 10:00AM EDT 3/25/2015 JENNIFER LECLAIRE

PCUSA Minister John Shuck believes in a 'belief-less' Christianity. (Twitter)

John Shuck is a Presbyterian minister—but he doesn't believe in God and has the audacity to declare that "Jesus may have been an historical figure, but most of what we know about Him is in the form of legend" and "God is a symbol of myth-making and not credible as a supernatural being or force" and "the Bible is a human product as opposed to special revelation from a divine being" and "human consciousness is the result of natural selection, so there's no afterlife."

So, basically, this Presbyterian minister is an atheist. In fact, he made these declarations on The Friendly Atheist's blog. Despite these beliefs he still describes himself as a "proud minister" and says he doesn't appreciate "being told I'm not truly a Christian."

Go ahead, read that again. Actually, I'll summarize it for you: Shuck essentially denies the divinity of Christ, characterizes the Father as a myth-maker, repudiates the veracity of the Bible, denies any existence of an afterlife and gets offended when people suggest that maybe he needs to reclassify his faith—or lack thereof? Yes, that about sums it up. About the only thing he didn't do was directly blaspheme the Holy Spirit. 

Promoting 'Belief-Less' Christianity

"I believe one of the newer religious paths could be a 'belief-less' Christianity. In this 'sect,' one is not required to believe things. One learns and draws upon practices and products of our cultural tradition to create meaning in the present," Shuck writes, acknowledging his support for congregations that make huge commitments to LGTBQ people.

"Belief-less Christianity is thriving right now, even as other forms of the faith are falling away rapidly. Many liberal or progressive Christians have already let go or de-emphasized belief in heaven, that the Bible is literally true, that Jesus is supernatural, and that Christianity is the only way. Yet they still practice what they call Christianity."

That might be what they call Christianity, but that's not Christianity. Christianity is a religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

Let's be clear: Christianity teaches the Bible is the inspired Word of God (see 2 Tim. 3:15). Christianity teaches that God exists in three Persons—Father, Son and Holy Spirit (see Matt 3:16-17). Christianity teaches that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father (see Rom. 4:25). Christianity teaches that mankind was created in God's image to live in relationship with Him (see Gen. 1:27). Christianity teaches that in order to be saved, one must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord (see Rom. 10:9). Christianity teaches that there is an afterlife—heaven for those who believe and hell for those who don't (see 2 Cor. 5:8; Matt. 5:22;30).

Perverting God's Word

Yesterday, I released a prophetic word about a tsunami of perversion rising. Shuck's belief system is part of that perversion. The root of the perversion I see coming is actually the perversion of God's Word itself.

We're seeing prominent pastors and entire denominations perverting God's Word, twisting it to defend and justify perversion itself and suggesting the rest of us are legalistic or unenlightened about the truth. It may have started with the gay marriage doctrine but it won't end there. Shuck, a Presbyterian minister who doesn't believe in God, is one more proof point.

"Someone quipped that my congregation is BYOG: Bring Your Own God. I use that and invite people to 'bring their own God'—or none at all," Shuck concludes. "While the symbol 'God' is part of our cultural tradition, you can take it or leave it or redefine it to your liking. That permission to be theological do-it-yourselfers is at the heart of belief-less Christianity."

It's also a perversion of the truth that could send people to hell and the blood of those who buy into Shuck's false gospel will be on his hands. Thankfully, God is merciful and forgiving. I pray that a spirit of repentance would fall on Shuck and all those like him who are perverting or denying the Word of God. I pray that church leaders and parishioners alike would receive fresh wisdom and knowledge in the revelation of Jesus. I pray that the truth would prevail in churches across the world. I pray for a Third Great Awakening with signs, wonders and miracles that will make it very evident that God is real and Jesus is alive. Amen.

 

Jennifer LeClaire is senior editor of Charisma. 

[Sojourner]

Is this not the denomination that recently voted to support Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions on Israel because of their focus on Anti-Semitism?

[LifeHiscost]

I know for sure I don't want to be where he is when enforced sunday worship on pain of death for those who refuse to accept it, goes down.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Igakusei]

I know for sure I don't want to be where he is when enforced sunday worship on pain of death for those who refuse to accept it, goes down.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

How soon exactly is this Sunday law under penalty of death thing going down again? I remember it being just around the corner for the last thirty years or so, and I remember picking up a Signs of the Times magazine from around 1906 or something that had a bunch of imminent Sunday law articles in it. What's it going to take for people to admit that it's not actually coming anywhere in the foreseeable future?

[Igakusei]

Is this not the denomination that recently voted to support Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions on Israel because of their focus on Anti-Semitism?

 

I imagine that this guy represents mainstream presbyterian thought in the same way that Ryan Bell represents SDA thought.

[Sojourner]

I am pretty sure its considered mainstream thought if the denomination votes for it...

[LifeHiscost]

How soon exactly is this Sunday law under penalty of death thing going down again? I remember it being just around the corner for the last thirty years or so, and I remember picking up a Signs of the Times magazine from around 1906 or something that had a bunch of imminent Sunday law articles in it. What's it going to take for people to admit that it's not actually coming anywhere in the foreseeable future?

When one considers a prophetic timetable of 6,000 prophetic years as a scenario and that all the prophetic timetables are complete now except carrying the gospel message to all the world, as well as this identifying hallmark from the Word, the only thing of more limited time schedule that would be of greater concern is a man's/woman's heartbeat, unless we might know how to insure it doesn't stop beating.

 

32“Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 33In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth,this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place this generation^j will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

36“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.^k Only the Father knows.

37“When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes....Matt 24

 

The preceding portion of the chapter helps to put the above in perspective. I admit a person that does not believe what Jesus tells us, is not included in this below.

 

…3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;…1 Thessalonians 5

 

26"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.…Luke 17

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

 

Isn't 40 years considered by most, one generation?

[LifeHiscost]

http://www.greatcontroversyad.com/Sunday%20Laws.htm

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29.

We are living in a day when the call for Sunday legislation has become almost universal. According to prophecy, these Sunday laws will become more and more increasingly dangerous to religious liberty. Such widespread  agitation must be met with widespread evangelism. That is why The "Real" Great Controversy Project must continue to warn people against these things before the crisis arises. The rapid progress of the Sunday Law Movement is documented below.

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is certainly grounds to debate whether or not The Great Controversy  Project is the best way to reach people in our society today. 

[joeb]

Wow.  The parallels between the Presbyterians and the Lutherans of pre-world war II are amazing.  The leading Lutheran theologians of that day in Germany didn't believe in God either.  You see where that led them....  They became supporters of Hitler.

[Igakusei]

I am pretty sure its considered mainstream thought if the denomination votes for it...

I was referring to his beliefs about the nature of God. I just didn't think that the stuff about Israel was relevant to the topic, since this guy appears to be anything but a typical presbyterian minister.

[joeb]

I was referring to his beliefs about the nature of God. I just didn't think that the stuff about Israel was relevant to the topic, since this guy appears to be anything but a typical presbyterian minister.

The man has retained his position in the Presbyterian church so his views cannot be considered all that radical within his church.  If they were he would have lost his credentials.

[Igakusei]

The man has retained his position in the Presbyterian church so his views cannot be considered all that radical within his church. If they were he would have lost his credentials.

There are a few catholic bishops with similar beliefs... maybe the presbyterian church just isn't as aggressive about policing the theology of its pastors as the SDA church is? Even the SDA church offers a lot more freedom than, say, the Mormon Church. I mean, are you seriously arguing that more than the tiniest fraction of presbyterian church members think this way about God?

[Tom Wetmore]

Some denominations do not worry about the personal beliefs of their pastors as long as they do not teach and preach anything inconsistent with official Church doctrine. My sister-in-law, an Adventist, was offered a pastoral position at a Methodist Church. They were fully aware she was an Adventist and would not have required her to become a Methodist.

[Gregory Matthews]

It is not unknown for a SDA pastor to be hired as the temp. pastor while the Protestant congregation is looking for a new pastor.   When this happens the SDA pastor only preaches on Sundays.  Lay members of the congregation will be in charge of the other activities of the church. 

[debbym]

I understand the practicality of this pastor and his list of things he does not intellectually agree with.  Intellectual assent to all of these biblical teachings does not produce any change in character, so why believe them.  They are not useful to the intellectual who is seeking substance in his or her spiritual walk.

 

They are actually irrelevant to daily living, and finding one's own ways to be a responsible, an ethical and spiritual person.

 

If you are not inspired by the Holy Spirit to recognize the cross which is foolishness to some, but is the power of God unto eternal life to others, you may find yourself to be a very responsible person trying to find your way to a good life in spite of religiousness. i can understand putting religion and all of it's trappings aside to find one's relationship to the Holy Spirit. The flesh may not only present decadent and epicurean, and indulgent in sin, it can also be very righteous and holy and religious.

 

It was the religious elite that hated Jesus unto death.

 

Religion and "belief" in the Bible does not equal "Love for God" and others, and a life changing relationship to God.

[LifeHiscost]

There is certainly grounds to debate whether or not The Great Controversy  Project is the best way to reach people in our society today. 

The case seems never any less than that. OTOH the readiness with leadership offered, to provide a different way to take it's place with as probable successful results is not quite so available.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[fccool]

I understand the practicality of this pastor and his list of things he does not intellectually agree with.  Intellectual assent to all of these biblical teachings does not produce any change in character, so why believe them.  They are not useful to the intellectual who is seeking substance in his or her spiritual walk.

 

They are actually irrelevant to daily living, and finding one's own ways to be a responsible, an ethical and spiritual person.

 

The problem with religion today in any context is that people are traditionally raised with "loosely defined philosophical concepts".   For example, in the above "spiritual walk" is a bordering a platitude.  The concept has very loose definition, and can mean a 1000 things to a thousand people.   Yet, it's exactly the type of language that you end up hear from pulpit over and over and over until it either becomes a full-blown platitude to the point where it loses any shred of meaning all together and loosely refers to "those God-related things you do".

 

Religion can really benefit with a language revamp, but that's exactly the core of the issue.   Once you actually begin defining these things, then religious concepts break down, because now you have to explain in a way that makes sense in our everyday human language, and think whether calling any given concept "spiritual" is really justifiable even from religious perspective.   You have to actually think about what you say, instead of simply reciting some verse and think that it contains some hidden meaning behind the layers of metaphors.

 

That's why pastors have it rough.   The congregation generally follows the script, while pastors have to read and study, reconcile the problems, come up with rationalizations (I'm not using this terms detrimentally), and come up with a script that makes sense.   But it's very difficult to keep feeding "the script" to the modern society, when our precision of language demands better explanations and clarifications.  

 

"Invite Jesus into your heart" may have appealed  to the generations who were brought up to internalize certain metaphors.   It doesn't work so well with this generation, which is being brought up with even basic logic of computer programming generation,  fact-checking requirements in schools, and generally more access to information.   They can see through the language being a platitude that triggers some response in older generation without any adequate and consistent explanation by anyone in the church.

 

For religion to survive in any shape or form, it either has to re-define the semantics of its vocabulary to be consistent with facts, or it has to keep the modern vocabulary our of its doors, clinging to the traditional metaphors that don't translate really well into our present understanding of how things work.   Unfortunately, church leadership is largely the older guys who still joyously sing hymns about fountains filled with blood,  and speak largely in vague terms, allowing the congregation to fill the void with whatever they think it means and confirm with some "amen".

 

The sad thing is... the church is slowly dying with people who think they are doing a favor to God and to religion with their basic inability to confront the semantics of the language they are reciting. 

[fccool]

I'd like to be fair with the above, because a lot of leadership in church are merely speaking the metaphorical language and mean something else without specifying it.

 

For example, the other day in a Sabbath school the subject went on to "Holy Spirit will convince you of truth", and I've asked two questions that I think seldom asked in any church:

 

Since

 

a)  Humans are physical beings and operate in this world through physical means, and having feelings and thoughts is dependent on our endocrine and nervous systems

 

1)  Does God through Holy Spirit manipulate hormone production and electrical impulses in our bodies, and re-arrange our brain content in order to communicate with each individual?

 

2)  If He doesn't, then how does the Holy Spirit work, since us being a physical beings, some physical stuff has to be altered for us to notice

 

 

The reply actually surprised me.   The Sabbath school leader, who is a well-educated man, explained that he doesn't think that God physically alters our brains, stimulates glands, or sends electrical signals inside of them to communicate messages.   He thinks that God works through physical world in a way that we already have what we need with multiple physical things being in motion to convince us of any given truth...   Thus, the work of the Holy Spirit is already done, and we have to merely use our God-given intellect, read the Bible and observe a wide variety of physical events that were set in motion to convince us of truth.  He didn't rule out some special intervention cases, but generally he didn't think it was the case.

 

So, it's a far cry from what most people would think to be the generic perception that never actually is nailed down in terms of functional reality.

 

The issue with this explanation is that older generation is deeply uncomfortable with it, and I could actually see their eyes widen when it was given.  Most of them probably would hold the same view,  yet when "The work of the Holy Spirit" is said as a phrase... everyone thinks that they are on the same page.

[joeb]

There are a few catholic bishops with similar beliefs... maybe the presbyterian church just isn't as aggressive about policing the theology of its pastors as the SDA church is? Even the SDA church offers a lot more freedom than, say, the Mormon Church. I mean, are you seriously arguing that more than the tiniest fraction of presbyterian church members think this way about God?

The Presbyterian church has moved a long ways away from traditional Protestantism.  I don't know the percentages, but I would not be shocked at a percentage over 10%.  That denomination has moved a long way away from following the Bible, and when that happens it isn't unthinkable at all that faith, even in the existance of God, is fading away.

 

Once someone who calls themselves a Christian starts rejecting portions of the Bible it's not a large jump to losing faith in God. 

[Anthony!]

It is interesting that neuroscientist, author and new atheist Sam Harris receives many emails from ministers that say they can no longer believe in the supernatural nature of the Bible. This is because they have investigated the science-based evidence of the natural world (evolution and the old earth). The ministers, according to Harris, stay 'in the closet' and continue their duties to their congregations because they do not want to lose their jobs. Many do not know any other way to make a living.

The Clergy Project is info straight from this horse's (movement's) mouth.

http://clergyproject.org/

As for what the population in general is doing, this is the latest from the Pew Research Group.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

 

[LifeHiscost]

It is interesting that neuroscientist, author and new atheist Sam Harris receives many emails from ministers that say they can no longer believe in the supernatural nature of the Bible. This is because they have investigated the science-based evidence of the natural world (evolution and the old earth). The ministers, according to Harris, stay 'in the closet' and continue their duties to their congregations because they do not want to lose their jobs. Many do not know any other way to make a living.

The Clergy Project is info straight from this horse's (movement's) mouth.

http://clergyproject.org/

As for what the population in general is doing, this is the latest from the Pew Research Group.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

 

​That probably reflects the U.S. whom some equate with modern day Rome. However here are some figures as of 2008, somewhat outdated, world wide.

http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/research-php/928/04-2008

Here are more up to date figures for worldwide Christian growth, even revealing Muslim figures following Christian growth. Makes it easy to see why this Biblical reference will be seen as necessary.

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.....Revelation 13

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Anthony!]

​That probably reflects the U.S. whom some equate with modern day Rome. However here are some figures as of 2008, somewhat outdated, world wide.

http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/research-php/928/04-2008

Here are more up to date figures for worldwide Christian growth, even revealing Muslim figures following Christian growth. Makes it easy to see why this Biblical reference will be seen as necessary.

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.....Revelation 13

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​Umm... LifeHisCost if you looked at the Pew article you would see that it is indeed for the United States. Given the percentages of those that identify as Christian, I think that it would be safe to say that the US is far from being 'modern day Rome'. Diana-worshippers do not hold the power in Congress, either.

[Anthony!]

Here are some interesting articles in response to the Pew report:

http://www.npr.org/2015/05/16/407073073/losing-faith-a-religious-leader-on-americas-disillusionment-with-church

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/14/in-a-dramatic-shift-the-american-church-is-more-evangelical-than-ever/

 

[pierrepaul]

Wow.  The parallels between the Presbyterians and the Lutherans of pre-world war II are amazing.  The leading Lutheran theologians of that day in Germany didn't believe in God either.  You see where that led them....  They became supporters of Hitler.

​Yes, and many who did believe in God (including not a few SdAs) also supported Hitler.

Rationalism developed in both Britain and Germany in the 18th century and was very well entrenched in European protestant circles by the mid 19th century, in Britain, the Netherlands and Scandinavia as well as in Germany. There is no causal link between rationalism in Germany circa 1933 and the rise of Hitler.