What Did Jesus Say About Money and Wealth?

[Bravus]

(note to mods - I don't think this is a theological or political topic, but if your judgement is different I'm quite happy to see it moved)

Can I encourage everyone - as I will also commit to do - to refrain from commenting in this thread until you have followed these instructions?

1. Acquire a 'red letter edition' of the Gospels in which Jesus' words are shown in red

2. Read all the words of Jesus in all four Gospels

3. Pay particular attention to everything he says about money and wealth. Take notes if you like

I think this could lead to a fascinating discussion.

[Bravus]

This might be helpful: https://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/JBPRed.htm

 

(but choose your own preferred translation)

[JimTN]

I've heard that fully 1/6th of Jesus' statements in the New Testament dealt with "money"... maybe someone can verify this?

[Bravus]

Been busy, but I do plan to just create a single document with every money-related statement of Jesus and share it here.

Guess I'll create it with an 'all the red words' document first so we can check the 1/6th proportion.

Bit tricky deciding which to include - the parable of the lost coin, for example, isn't really about money... but I'll err in the direction of being more inclusive.

[Gail]

I'm curious :)

[phkrause]

Me too.

[Bravus]

http://www.bravus.com/AllWordsOfJesus.pdf

 

OK, here's Step 1 - all 39,312 'red words'. As you'll notice, it ends up being tough to read because a lot of it is dialogue in stories with the stories omitted.

Still, it's great to have in one place, and I enjoyed the process of compiling it, and learned more about the structure and features of each of the 4 Gospels.

More soon.

[Gail]

Awesome, Bravus!

[Aliensanctuary]

We might come to the conclusion that wealth tends to create roadblocks that prevent us from seeing what the Kingdom is all about. The rich and the educated may be less likely to be chosen, according to Christ, unlike the poor and the uneducated folk who will populate the New Earth.

 

Perhaps the rich and the educated think too highly of their opinions or "knowledge" or are too selfish to make the cut, while the poor and uneducated have little to lose or find objectionable in their acknowledged humility. Those chosen to join and live in the Kingdom will possess little, if anything, and whatever they learned in the old world would be worthless, if not toxic, so it must all be deleted.

 

In the end, it's the cares of this world, money, possessions, and errant knowledge, that hinder us from becoming worthy servants of the LORD in this life.

[Tom Wetmore]

On the other hand, we seek after eternal life where we will want for nothing, live in relative luxury so very often described in terms very much like the lifestyles of the rich and wealthy. We will likewise have an eternity to acquire unlimited education and knowledge. I really do not think the New Earth inhabitants will remain poor and uneducated or that progressively more so as their righteousness is perfected.

So why is it that money and wealth is a negative here and now but not then and there?

[Bravus]

Working through it now, but it's tough in terms of the judgement calls about what to include. Will post it as soon as it's done.

I won't opine on the very interesting questions raised here... I want to hear from Jesus.

[lazarus]

I took a bit of time to skim some of these texts. I've preached on a bunch of them but there is one that caught my eye. They are not the words of Jesus but words about Jesus. It's Mary's song about Jesus. Luke 1:46-55, often called the Magnificat. These lines grabbed me:

 

⁵² he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
    and exalted those of humble estate;
⁵³ he has filled the hungry with good things,
    and the rich he has sent away empty

 

Luke/Mary are of course borrowing from the OT but I am struck by how part of Jesus' work was to reverse the earthly order of things. Is the human tendency to gravitate towards honoring position, success, and wealth? Of course it is. Left to our own devices we esteem wealth, peruse it, and confer positive attributes to those who have it. Reading between the lines and adding what we see from His words It seems like Jesus esteems poverty, pursues it (am I going too far?), confers positive attributes to the poor ( I know that is true).

 

Alluding to Tom's question, what virtues do the poor have that the rich don't?

 

Thanks Bravus for setting this up. Thought provoking.

[Tom Wetmore]

A key to that great reversal I think is "Not by might or by power"... Wealth can buy those things. That is the huge temptation. Hard to resist. Using our money and wealth to lord it over others, control and influence others. It ican give power to the the weak man, influence to the unwise, and control to the incompetent. We are tempted to see it as the solution to all our problems.

[CoAspen]

In context of all that has been 'said' by Christ.......He was simply against the misuse of anything that we have. He was not against wealth, riches, etc, how could He be! If we see Him as ruler of all and creator of all then He is the Midas in reality. In my mind, it is all about the use of such and motive. Not any different than anything else.

[Gail]

To add to Tom's thoughts: wealth creates classes of men, whereas before God all we have to bring are our hearts. We may be intimidated by outward appearances but Jesus reached down to the thoughts and intents of the heart, our secret core.

[lazarus]

In context of all that has been 'said' by Christ.......He was simply against the misuse of anything that we have. He was not against wealth, riches, etc, how could He be! I

 

Matthew 19: 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is very hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. 24I’ll say it again—it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

25 The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked.

26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.”

 

I don't think Jesus is pinpointing any misuse he's just talking about the impact of riches in and of themselves.This backs up what Tom and Gail are suggesting. This is perhaps why Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything. Hmmm.... Tim Cook may be responding to the Spirit of God. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/26/apple-ceo-tim-cook-idUSL3N0WS63F20150326.

[Bravus]

Kind of a related comment: my imagination is that in heaven there will be no money and no medium of exchange, because everyone will have everything they want and need. Can there even *be* wealth without poverty? Does it mean anything to own something if everyone else does too? That, to me, is how the conundrum of how our infinite 'wealth' in heaven would not be corruptive: because there would be no distinction between us.

OK, Suzie worked over night and will be sleeping for a fair chunk of today, and I'm on holiday: time to finish up the copy-and-paste task and post this thing.

[CoAspen]

Laz, in the context of the verse you are using, perhaps not misuse but that it had no benefit toward salvation. I was speaking in general terms that neither being rich or poor has any merit, it is what we do with our lives. Humans made the distinction for separation of persons, to make one group feel superior over  another. For me the text is not speaking to wealth but about salvation.  I heard that text used so much growing up, that at one time the message seemed to be that poor is better. It was only getting away from SDAism that I began to see what Christ was talking about, for me anyway.

[Bravus]

OK, here's my document. http://www.bravus.com/AllWordsOfJesusAboutMoney.pdf

As I said, there are choices to be made. I've honestly tried not to cherrypick, but the earlier post with the entire set of 'red words' means anyone can copy and paste into the thread anything I've omitted that they think is relevant.

 

One example: the story of Zaccheus is a story about salvation, not a story about money, and Jesus only says a couple of sentences in it, so I haven't included it, but someone else might have.

Similarly, the one line "The poor you have always with you, me you do not always have" appears in the story of Mary and the alabaster box of perfume, and is in at least 3 of the gospels, but I didn't include it (except right here).

Righto, on with the conversation!

[Bravus]

4752 words in this document, which is a fair way short of 1/6th of the 39312 total words: closer to 1/8th. But see above about judgement calls.

[Bravus]

Maybe I'm reading it through my biases, so please check me and post counterpoints.

But he seems to me to be saying:

Take care of the poor
Pay your taxes (render unto Caesar)
Store up treasure in heaven

It's tough for a rich person to get into heaven

Don't worry about the future or providing for yourself

What do you think?

Chapter and verse, please.

[Gail]

Give, give, give

[Aliensanctuary]

In the next life, we will have access to everything that we will need, but own nothing, or next to nothing. With Self gone, we will no longer care about what is "mine" and what is "yours". It will just be the LORD's. If someone needs to borrow something that we have, it will be lent gladly in order to benefit the borrower.

 

Instead of loading ourselves down with stuff in this world, we could be creating a different kind of wealth that comes from sharing everything, even down to our last bread crumb. When our life in the Kingdom of Stuff is over, the record of all of the stuff that we ever owned or wanted to own will be forgotten. Only the kind and unselfish things that we did for others will be remembered because that's what the Kingdom of YHVH is all about: generosity, non-ownership of stuff, and self-sacrifice to benefit others. That would be our destiny if we consent to become servants of YHVH.

 

We can all learn so much if we spent time studying, then practicing, the teachings of Christ. It would tend to grind off some of our rough edges: our greed, our disrespect for others, our self-centered tunnel vision that restricts our ability to act as we should.

[Gail]

Bravus, re: the first red letter statement you recorded has our Lord reaffirming what was a OT policy. The Israelites were to lend to a poor person whatever that person asked of them no matter what. The way the person became poor was or how foolish the person was deemed to be was not to be called into question.

Prov. 19:17 says that he who has pity on the poor is lending to the Lord

[Gail]

In the next life, we will have access to everything that we will need, but own nothing, or next to nothing. With Self gone, we will no longer care about what is "mine" and what is "yours". It will just be the LORD's. If someone needs to borrow something that we have, it will be lent gladly in order to benefit the borrower.

 

Instead of loading ourselves down with stuff in this world, we could be creating a different kind of wealth that comes from sharing everything, even down to our last bread crumb. When our life in the Kingdom of Stuff is over, the record of all of the stuff that we ever owned or wanted to own will be forgotten. Only the kind and unselfish things that we did for others will be remembered because that's what the Kingdom of YHVH is all about: generosity, non-ownership of stuff, and self-sacrifice to benefit others. That would be our destiny if we consent to become servants of YHVH.

 

We can all learn so much if we spent time studying, then practicing, the teachings of Christ. It would tend to grind off some of our rough edges: our greed, our disrespect for others, our self-centered tunnel vision that restricts our ability to act as we should.

it certainly is humbling to consider that any THING we may label as "mine" is disposable and can be taken or destroyed. It is a real test to the reigning self to consider giving away the stuff that is dearest to us. Yet they are corruptible.

But I like what you said about giving. This may be related to my query in the thread, "Charity never faileth". What are the treasures in heaven? Maybe they are the kindnesses and mercies we extend to others to the sacrifice of our selfish desires. The Bible shows us a God that gives, even to the surrendering up of His Son (don't know if I could do the same!) for the benefit of others.

Love never fails... The record of compassion may indeed be remembered as a testament to God through His children. WDYT?