Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted April 6, 2015 Administrators Posted April 6, 2015 http://tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/ RudyEnext 1 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
bonnie Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 http://tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/ A gay couple is not considered the enemy. They simply are demanding that others engage in participating in an act that some believe to be morally wrong. We are to obey the laws of the land until it conflicts with our religious belief. Some do not share the "enlightened religious" view that some think is wrong. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
B/W Photodude Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 This article is wrong on so many levels that one can hardly know where to begin on disassembling it. One of the things that liberal Christianity gets wrong is believing that someone else's emotional feelings are so much more important than doing the right thing. And that is what the article seems to bring out is that some person's emotions should be more catered to than even what God says to do. While it is easy to think it is just OK to go along with helping to put on a gay wedding, what gets missed is that tomorrow, someone else is going to have an emotional crisis because you choose your ethics over their feelings. And I do not think anyone really wants me to put up the varius scenarios of what they could be, but they are on the horizon. The whole philosophy in the world today has gotten really twisted. It used to easily be expressed in the controversy between the ideas of John Stuart Mills of "consequentialism" which is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, "the ends justify the means", meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable" and those of Immanuel Kant's "moral imperatives." Kant took the imperative to be a dictate of pure reason, in its practical aspect. Not following the moral law was seen to be self-defeating and thus contrary to reason. In other words, you do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. Things really start to get muddy when you began to comprehend the effects of post modernist thought when it comes to religion. In other words, you cannot commit sin even if it brings about a desired result. I would say that in the end of it all, many things Christians believe can be compromised by following the path of aiming for the end results and especially if that end result is assuaging someone else's emotions. As far as the topic of gay weddings and bakers, I would suggest that the gay man who spoke in the video I posted yesterday in the "The hypocrisy of the LGBT movement" thread had a better understanding of the conflict than the authors of this article. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
CoAspen Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Good article, well thought out. The principle could be used in the situation described. However......since the issue is gay activity, people feel their religious freedom is being impacted, but not any other 'sinful' activity. Lets suppose someone comes into the same 'cake' business, and that person is known for cheating on their spouse, are they going to refuse to sell to that person? Can someone point me to that ever happening? The only hypocrisy being practiced, is by Christians, using religion as their personal 'fall guy'. Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted April 6, 2015 Moderators Posted April 6, 2015 Would they need to ask if the cake was to celebrate the birthday of the person they were cheating with? If so, would they then refuse to make and bake the cake? What is it was to be decorated with a heart and :To My Eternal Love?" Quote Gregory
CoAspen Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Maybe the phrase should be 'Don't tell and I won't ask.' Quote
bonnie Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Would they need to ask if the cake was to celebrate the birthday of the person they were cheating with? If so, would they then refuse to make and bake the cake? What is it was to be decorated with a heart and :To My Eternal Love?" It is generally pretty obvious when preparing a cake for a wedding. In any account of a refusal to provide a cake there isn't any indication the baker asked Is this for a gay wedding,if so I refuse. They are told it is for a gay wedding A better question might be to this Would they need to ask if the cake was to celebrate the birthday of the person they were cheating with? Are you willing to make a cake for a public celebration that says,I want to acknowledge my love affair with a woman not my wife? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 The only hypocrisy being practiced, is by Christians, using religion as their personal 'fall guy'. As "Do not judge" is a frequent refrain here,it is not the businesses that make a public judgmental display. There isn't any indication they are the ones running to the media. How is it you know that instead of being a privately held religious conviction by those refusing it is hypocrisy using religion as the fall guy. That sounds a lot like judging from the Thou shalt not judge crowd LifeHiscost 1 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
B/W Photodude Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 There are a couple of arguments regarding the production of wedding cakes that are fallacious and disparaging of the owners of the business. One is that the proprietors of the business will engage in producing a product for someone engaged in an adulterous affair. There has been no such evidence to prove such an accusation regarding the flower shop owners, the bakeries, or the pizza shop owners. Some of you act like stopping gay marriages is the only thing that matters to these owners. You probably won't hear about the adulterers who get refused anyway, because who are they going to tell! And who anyway would order a cake for an adulterous event? Methinks this argument is straining at gnats. It is also alleged that these owners will do no business with gay people. This is also false. Some of the proprietors have a record of doing business with gay people and selling them their merchandise. The flower shop owner had a record of a regular business relationship with the gay person who sued her. Sounds to me like knife in the back. The missed fact of the whole argument is that these gay people are asking them to go above and beyond their usual business, in some cases, and even if it is their usual business, they are being asked to help produce an event which they feel violates their own personal morality. So, it would be nice if their characters would stop being impugned with no real basis to make such an assertion. Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
B/W Photodude Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Gay fascism? http://godfatherpolitics.com/21516/the-rise-of-gay-fascism-in-america-where-everybody-is-a-target/ Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
Moderators lazarus Posted April 7, 2015 Moderators Posted April 7, 2015 " The only hypocrisy being practiced, is by Christians, using religion as their personal 'fall guy'." Yes sir. Silence on baking cakes for divorcees is a tell-tale sign. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
bonnie Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 " The only hypocrisy being practiced, is by Christians, using religion as their personal 'fall guy'." Yes sir. Silence on baking cakes for divorcees is a tell-tale sign. I think you know better even as you are posting the mockery of christians that don't agree with you. Haven't heard yet where any bakery has had a questionaire filled out to find out who is gay and who isn't. Unlike you,some people consider the lifestyle deviant behavior and don't wish to be part of publically affirming what God calls an abomination. Those that live by the word tolerance and Do not judge are some of the most intolerant of another belief than their "correct one" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators lazarus Posted April 7, 2015 Moderators Posted April 7, 2015 Qu'ils mangent de la brioche Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
JoeMo Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I don't understand why all these accusations of bigotry are being focused on Christians. There are atheists, pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims who are also opposed to gay marriage. What do you think would have been the response of these guys went into a halal Muslim bakery and asked for a cake for a gay wedding? Quote
B/W Photodude Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Sometimes similarly topiced threads will have info that will work in another thread. So, this YouTube video will attempt to answer why Chritians are being targeted and other religions are being given a pass: JoeMo 1 Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
JoeMo Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 EXACTLY, Lyndon! Thanks for posting that GREAT video. Quote
bonnie Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Local CA Gay Woman Who Donated $20 To Fundraiser For Indiana Pizzeria That Won’t Cater Same-Sex Marriages Urges ‘Tolerance’ April 7, 2015 2:14 PM (Facebook) SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) — Score one for tolerance, and a big zero for bigotry. A Southern California gay woman taught a lesson in tolerance to progressives and conservatives alike when she donated $20 to the GoFundMe page for the Indiana Pizzeria that won’t cater same-sex marriages. On her donation to Memories Pizza, Courtney Hoffman wrote: The pizzeria became a lightening rod in the fight over the Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act that made it lawful for anti-LGBT businesses to discriminate against gays. Owner Crystal O’Connor told a local TV station her family wouldn’t cater a same sex marriage. Her remarks set off so many online threats, she said she was forced to close shop. “As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business. I know many gay individuals who fully support your right to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs. We are outraged at the level of hate and intolerance that has been directed at you and I sincerely hope that you are able to rebuild.” That prompted conservative commentator Lawrence B. Jones III to set up a crowdfunding page on GoFundMe. Jones is a regular contributor to The Dana Show that airs on Glen Beck’s news network, The Blaze. In a matter of days, he raised almost $850,000 — twenty of which came from Hoffman. Support Memories Pizza GoFundMe page. (CBS) A producer for conservative radio show ‘The Jeff Adams Show’ noticed Hoffman’s donation and tracked her down via her Facebook page to ask her why she did it. She agreed to a radio interview and explained that she and her girlfriend operate a small kettle corn stand, and if they were asked to set up at an anti-gay marriage rally, they would have to decline. She said the hate-filled response to the pizzeria’s stance did not represent the gay community she knows — one that actually encourages people to live their lives according to one’s beliefs. “We know so many gay individuals that fully support the freedom of living your life according to your beliefs and feel that freedom extends to everyone, even the people that we don’t agree with.” Hoffman stressed the need for tolerance saying, “If we can remember that differences don’t equal maliciousness, and try to find what we have in common — you know, the ands instead of the ors, maybe we can move beyond threats of violence and have open discussions of the things that we don’t agree on.” Not everyone supported Hoffman’s actions, but since her donation, more gays have given money to the pizzeria, and she has earned the praise of many of the conservative talk show’s following. JoeMo and rudywoofs (Pam) 2 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators lazarus Posted April 9, 2015 Moderators Posted April 9, 2015 "I don't understand why all these accusations of bigotry are being focused on Christians." It is because the religion displayed by these "Christians" is often hypocritical and self-serving. It's really about culture and politics rather than the Bible and Jesus. Do you really think half of these conservative politicians or pundits really believe in the sanctity of marriage. Many of them are divorced and remarried on non-Biblical grounds. Their Christian supporters are silent because they do not see it as an important enough issue. I wonder why? This is apostate protestantism at work. Here is an example: Texas lawmaker married five times files error-filled complaint against gay marriage http://www.chron.com/news/politics/texas/article/Texas-lawmaker-and-five-time-groom-makes-6110172.php Christians targeted? LOL. They deserve it for their hypocrisy. CoAspen 1 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
CoAspen Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 The focus on others has always been used to hide ones self from view. Segments of christianity have simply become more bolder by the decades of finger pointing that they now feel justified to go public with their fingers for their own agendas. Christianity is being persecuted by them selves, how ironic. Christians doth protest too much......way....too...much!! Quote
bonnie Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Maybe the focus is on gays because that is where others that disagree are being asked to participate in a way they are not comfortable with.The focus only begins then. None of those mentioned in the news had a antigay policy. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Gail Posted April 9, 2015 Administrators Posted April 9, 2015 Is this the same as, "No shirt, no shoes, no service?" Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Aliensanctuary Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I believe it to be very mean-spirited to try to force a business to cater to you if your request violates their religious beliefs. You may have the law, the media, and the ACLU on your side, but to refuse to respect someone's beliefs and characterize them as hateful bigots for some minor issue is vengeful and cruel. Of course, as the above video seems to indicate, Muslim bakeries can refuse to make wedding cakes with specific gay messages or pictures, but Muslim business are not being demonized like Christian business who do the very same thing. The wake-up call is coming when Islam takes over America and gays will be thrown from tall buildings or dragged in the streets tied behind cars. The gays might very well start praying that the Christian principle of respect for life return to the nation. We all know that Christians and Jews will be persecuted, jailed, and killed for their beliefs in the Last Days. The targeted intolerance these days towards Christians and Jews is just a practice run. LifeHiscost, B/W Photodude and JoeMo 3 Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
B/W Photodude Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Of course, as the above video seems to indicate, Muslim bakeries can refuse to make wedding cakes with specific gay messages or pictures, but Muslim business are not being demonized like Christian business who do the very same thing. The wake-up call is coming when Islam takes over America and gays will be thrown from tall buildings or dragged in the streets tied behind cars. The gays might very well start praying that the Christian principle of respect for life return to the nation. It is not unthinkable for this to happen. Islam is being forced on this country on many fronts these days. While it may be a very small segment of the population, so is the gay movement and look at their power in this country. And look at South Africa under apartheid. A small segment of that countries population controlled that country for a long time. One thing that will complicate things here is the arming of the people. So, it will be interesting to watch it all play out. The radfems are going to love it! Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
B/W Photodude Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 It would seem that several posts have disappeared out of this thread! Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
Administrators Gail Posted April 12, 2015 Administrators Posted April 12, 2015 How about that! rudywoofs (Pam) 1 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
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