bonnie Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 So I should provide to all whatever I am asked that is inline with what I offer regardless of the stated intended use? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Dr. Shane Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 ..without imposing a value judgment on the customer based on the business owner's person beliefs, biases or values... We are not talking about personal beliefs but rather religious beliefs. Should we force a Catholic urologist to perform vasectomies? I think as Seventh-day Adventists we are very in tune with not forcing our beliefs on other people because we don't want others to force their beliefs on us. That is great. I am in total agreement to that. But now when some other Christian denominations feel that providing certain services (like a urologist performing a vesectomy) makes them guilty of the sin, we are inclined to force our belief (that it does not make them guilty of sin) on them. The compromise is simple. Instead of forcing people out of business because, when they have a religious conflict, they simply must direct the presepective customer to where they can find the service without a significant financial burdon. phkrause 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
fccool Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 The Church can have internal standards like any other institution. But the Church exists in a scope of society at large that has to accomodate a large variety of people's and beliefs. There's a systematic commerce law that was developed to do just that... in order to mediate these issues legally and consistently. Nor do I believe a specific chruch has to accommodate a wide variety of beliefs. And Yes that is happening more and more I think you misunderstood. When I say "that has to accomodate", I'm referring to society and not the church. Church, in the scope of its own existence as organization, can have whatever organizational preferences it wants. The issue here is the individuals attempting to carry these preferences beyond the scope of church organizational preferences and demand that other people respect these preferences in a society. The issue with that is potential clashes that can render social contract law ineffective. That's why certain limits to religious freedom are set when it comes to contractual law and commerce. I am well aware of what the civil law is. I believe we are to obey that until and unless it conflicts with our religious belief. Not you or anyone on this forum has the God given right to determine for me or anyone else what those religious beliefs are. My religious and moral beliefs end when I use civil law to force you to go against yours. No one is forcing you to participate in society you live in. It's something you choose to do. You are free to withdraw and build a nation somewhere on an island that wouldn't have to worry about these things... but in a scope of diverse society, there are intricacies that we have to consider, and you have a contractual obligations as a part of the automatic social contract you engage in when you choose to remain in the society you are in. Several posters on this forum have consistently mocked and . scoffed at those that don't agree with your "wisdom". They are labeled self righteous,hate filled hypocrites. I guess to some that is the definition of religious tolerance.There isn't any rule here that says you can't. I'm not exactly sure where anyone is labeled as "hate-filled" here. Even in case of baker, he was respectful about letting the person know his objections. It's not about hate as much as it's about hypocrisy. And I've pointed the main point of hypocrisy as a fact... People engage in all benefits of this society... expecting to ride the same roads, have opportunity to go to same schools, have the same jobs, and have access to the same services in general, whether they are white, black, male, female, or gay. Whether you think something is immoral is irrelevant when it comes to providing THE SAME SERVICES that you would provide to everyone else. Yet most that are labeled and judged as such show far more tolerance. They also show the strength of their convictions by knowing in all likelihood they will face tremendous court cost and the loss of their business. That is their religious right. It has nothing to do with tolerance. You are free to personally discriminate whoever you like. One can parade with "God hates fags" posters in this country. One can refuse gay people in their home. One can do whatever they like in that respect... THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE! It's not about you, or gay people, or liberals. It's about all of us trying to live in peace. For that to happen, there is a healthy balance between "I just want my way and my religious preferences to be respected", and "I don't want to be kicked out of every single place I am because everyone's religious preferences assume that what I do is immoral" Yes. You think that morality comes from the Bible, and it's great. But, many people don't, or they have different view and interpretation that you may have. Some common ground has to be worked out with provisions that wouldn't force people to do something they don't want to. AND THAT'S THE CASE HERE I've been repeating this for so many times, I really think you'd get it. No one is forcing for a baker to make a cake for homosexual wedding. He is free to do so in the scope of his limited choice that he has to declare upfront as either a disclaimer, or some sort of differentiating factor for their business. But, if you are opening a business that's "Open to all" withing the scope of contractual agreement with the State and the rest of the public.... which is outlined by the discrimination laws that spell out acceptable level of discrimination, and then you turn around and break that contract... guess what? Don't be surprised when someone may sue you and win the case. The same thing would happen if a gay baker said "We don't serve Christians here, sorry". A Christian has grounds for taking them to court and winning the case. I understand why you wouldn't like it, but through cases like these is how we got a fair amount of racial and gender equality, where there was none in the past. Homosexual issue falls within those lines. Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted April 14, 2015 Moderators Posted April 14, 2015 I really like Shane's proposed solution: if there are people for whom you'd prefer not to provide a commercial service, keep handy the business card of a competitor who is willing to do so, and pass it on. It makes a lot of sense to me... and means being willing to 'put your money where your mouth is'. To make a sacrifice of your own profits to back up your beliefs, while not unduly inconveniencing the client. And yet... would we be cool with it if it was black people you preferred not to serve and referred on? I imagine not... yet the 'curse of Ham' was a *religious* reason used to support such discrimination in the past. phkrause 1 Quote Truth is important
Moderators lazarus Posted April 14, 2015 Moderators Posted April 14, 2015 And yet... would we be cool with it if it was black people you preferred not to serve and referred on? I imagine not... yet the 'curse of Ham' was a *religious* reason used to support such discrimination in the past. For religious reasons, one of my former churches used to refer black Adventists on down the road to other churches. It worked very well for a number of years. They were willing to sacrifice the offering, fellowship, and gifts of those people for their beliefs. Still happens now but they are a lot more subtle, which is nice. I'm supportive of Shane's idea but I'm just struck at how sometimes attitudes don't really change, just the faces. I'm feeling more and more that Christianity and Jesus don't mix well. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted April 14, 2015 Author Administrators Posted April 14, 2015 The problem is that it is very difficult to know where to draw the line once you head down this sort of path. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
bonnie Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 I really like Shane's proposed solution: if there are people for whom you'd prefer not to provide a commercial service, keep handy the business card of a competitor who is willing to do so, and pass it on. It makes a lot of sense to me... and means being willing to 'put your money where your mouth is'. To make a sacrifice of your own profits to back up your beliefs, while not unduly inconveniencing the client. And yet... would we be cool with it if it was black people you preferred not to serve and referred on? I imagine not... yet the 'curse of Ham' was a *religious* reason used to support such discrimination in the past. The God given right to my religious and moral beliefs end when to practice them I need to take that same right from another. There are those that have determined any business will do what they demand against that or they will force them from business The availability of bakers,photographers,and churches that view homosexual lifestyles as normal and right as traditional or simply don't care as long as they profit is readily available to them. I doubt if any wedding was cancelled because of a lack of cake,photographs or ministers or while they are suing Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Dr. Shane Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 And yet... would we be cool with it if it was black people you preferred not to serve and referred on? I imagine not... yet the 'curse of Ham' was a *religious* reason used to support such discrimination in the past. That is why I just can't take a position on this issue. If it was racial, we wouldn't allow that. Yet, do we really want to force a urologist to perform a vasectomy? This is not an easy issue for me to decide on. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
B/W Photodude Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 That is why I just can't take a position on this issue. If it was racial, we wouldn't allow that. Yet, do we really want to force a urologist to perform a vasectomy? This is not an easy issue for me to decide on. The problem is, moral objections are accepted in the medical field, not including race issues. I really don't think people are really getting what the problem for the shop owners is. Crazy thing is, even some gay people do get what the problem is and can articulate it very well, to some people! Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
Dr. Shane Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I'm feeling more and more that Christianity and Jesus don't mix well. I agree with that but let's remember, that is what Adventists preach. We preach that most of Christianity has departed from the Biblical faith and that we are the remnant. What saddens me is that too often we see Adventists reflecting the attitudes found in many of the other Christian denominations. An Adventist baker would not have a religious conflict baking a cake for a gay wedding. An Adventist doctor would probably refuse to perform an abortion when it was being used as a means of birth control or to choose the sex of the child but would often do so under other circumstances. Adventists tend to have a good grasp on free will and allowing other people the right to exercise it. Many in other Christian denominations are much quicker to try and control the will of their fellow man. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
GayatfootofCross Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Well many think Gays are the enemy. Enemies of our Morals and Theology and Church and Marriage. "Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked. Luke 6:35 Stan, JoeMo and Gail 3 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Stan Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 GayatfootofCross First of all, welcome here. Second of all, that is a profound point.. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
LifeHiscost Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I am not against those who accept the lifestyle but there are other living conditions that also preclude living among the redeemed when Jesus returns. How would you say a person should accept this instruction from the Word? …16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18"And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.....2 Corinthians 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
GayatfootofCross Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Well thank you Stan! Yes it is a profound point. I should see that point driven on every line. It is not about making ourselves comfortable.It is about lifting up Jesus and His non condemnation to all. His sacrifice and love must be reflected. When we as a Church do that,we will see people's lives change. Although it may not always look what we think it should. Simply just towing the line and doing everything right i.e sabbath keeping or getting married to a woman can be all works without a new heart overflowing with God's love. Oh it looks good. All the new members who 'don't drink don't smoke or chew or go out with girls who do'. Laodicean looks great on the outside. It comforts us to see people doing right and abiding by our rules. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
LifeHiscost Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Well thank you Stan! Am I to understand we are to advocate the inclusion of any and all lifestyles as welcome in the kingdom of heaven despite holiness being the description God is identified by often re: the character of the Creator God? A thorough rundown of a path plainly endangering the future, when followed, is well explored at this web page. http://tinyurl.com/le64mjo God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
GayatfootofCross Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 "Am I to understand we are to advocate the inclusion of any and all lifestyles as welcome in the kingdom of heaven despite holiness being the description God is identified by often re: the character of the Creator God? A thorough rundown of a path plainly endangering the future, when followed, is well explored at this web page"Lifehiscost.God is Love! Jesus saves! amen! ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... What I am advocating first and foremost is that we (the Holy Body of Christ).is to follow Jesus on how we look upon one another. To reflect His heart. To love and to love on. To sacrificially serve cause its an out breaking supernatural way of being when you catch a glimpse of GOD. For yourself and naturally it oozes out on others. "Woe unto me I'm a man with unclean lips and live with people(our church) who are also unclean for I have seen His Glory!" We most likely see God very differently(and see people differently) and no human reasoning/debate can change the heart. What I shared before is not heresy It is The Gospel and you, LifeHiscost, must have misunderstood my Quote (below) and God Bless You. 4/21/2015 Well many think Gays are the enemy. Enemies of our Morals and Theology and Church and Marriage. "Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked. Luke 6:35 4/21/2015 Well thank you Stan! Yes it is a profound point. I should see that point driven on every line. It is not about making ourselves comfortable.It is about lifting up Jesus and His non condemnation to all. His sacrifice and love must be reflected. When we as a Church do that,we will see people's lives change. Although it may not always look what we think it should. Simply just towing the line and doing everything right i.e sabbath keeping or getting married to a woman can be all works without a new heart overflowing with God's love. Oh it looks good. All the new members who 'don't drink don't smoke or chew or go out with girls who do'. Laodicean looks great on the outside. It comforts us to see people doing right and abiding by our rules. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
LifeHiscost Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Although it may not always look what we think it should. Simply just towing the line and doing everything right i.e sabbath keeping or getting married to a woman can be all works without a new heart overflowing with God's love. Oh it looks good. All the new members who 'don't drink don't smoke or chew or go out with girls who do'. Laodicean looks great on the outside. It comforts us to see people doing right and abiding by our rules. When we see the Word revealed, that's every facet, revealing God's love, no matter how small the increment and whether it is in or out of context and make effort to practice what we understand to be Truth as led of the Spirit, knowing no effort on our part is the reason for our or anyone else's salvation, then and only then can we rest in the joy of the Lord. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life....1 John 5 12...work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;…Philippians 2 …11"But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless....Matthew 22 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members phkrause Posted April 22, 2015 Members Posted April 22, 2015 http://tinyurl.com/le64mjo God is Love! Jesus saves! That was very informative. I think John316/7 would've loved to read that link! LifeHiscost 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
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