Greek "Eon" and Universal Reconciliation

[Stan]

The wages of sin is death...  the gift of God is eternal life..   

 

Do they want that deleted from the Bible?

[Robert]

​The problem with universalism is that it promotes a weak cross.

​How so?  Look, I do not believe everyone will be saved although Christ has legally saved "all men" at the cross.   Why?  Because Christ doesn't compel mankind to accept what is already true of the human race in Him.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Robert

[RedSearch]

There were 2 with Jesus at the cross, one was saved for sure.

Jesus gave us salvation but if we reject it, He will let us.

[brotherly love]

​How so?  Look, I do not believe everyone will be saved although Christ has legally saved "all men" at the cross.   Why?  Because Christ doesn't compel mankind to accept what is already true of the human race in Him.

​The first problem with universal salvation is that believing in Jesus Christ is not a life insurance policy. It is about relationship. Some don't want anything to do with God. Do you think Richard Dawkins wants anything to do with God? No. If God was to force Himself on Richard Dawkins, then eternity with God would in essence become a living hell for those who dont want to spend eternity with them.

God would be likened to a rapist, but God is not a rapist, he gives people what they want.

Jesus will universally raise the "living" and the "dead" and conquer death with eternal life, but those who dont want to be with Him will get there wish.

Edited May 18, 2015 by brotherly love

[brotherly love]

​Are you sure Dawkins wouldn't repent after 1000 years?

- joe

​Maybe he would evolve!!

[RedSearch]

​Maybe he would evolve!!

One of their arguments is that after they (wicked) are punished during the so-called eon, they will want to be saved. (According to the dude ive been debating.) So, it would not be forced then. 

 

I see this is not valid though - just look at the israelites, they over and over rejected God. Also Solomon.

[8thdaypriest]

I used to attend a small Sabbath study group in the next town, until the leader of that group read some universalist literature and began to teach such.  His group disintegrated immediately.  He taught that "the lake of fire" does not destroy the whole being (Satan et al included).  It only consumes the evil that is part of the being.  So the being (angel or human) comes out of that "cleansing fire", free of sin and ready to occupy a place in the family of God. 

I found the word "perdition" was helpful in the arguments against his position.  The word translated as "perdition" in the KJV, is translated as "destruction" or "utter destruction" in the later versions. 

Concerning the use of the "foot stool" imagery.  If we try to look at this conflict through a Middle Eastern lens, the idea of trampling on an enemy is one that would readily be understood.  In Daniel 8, the goat from the West, throws the Ram to the ground and tramps on or stamps on him.  Remember the man who thru a shoe at Pres. Bush?  The imagery conveyed the idea of complete defeat of said enemy. 

Malachi 4:3 "You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts." (NKJ)

What is MISSING from the universalist teaching, is the concept of FREE WILL.  It is assumed (not taught in the Bible) that IF one came to see the love of God, and to understand the goodness of God, that such a one could NOT RESIST surrendering to God. 

But resist they do, and will - and it is that resistance which will consume them.  Consider the story of Pharaoh.   The harder he fought against the LORD, the more of his kingdom was consumed in his struggle. 

"Therefore I have brought a fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
 (Eze 28:18 NAU)

The "fire" which finally "consumes" the whole person, comes from WITHIN.   The "fire" is his hatred of Good. 

Evil is the absence of good.  If good (God's spirit) is NOT THERE, then the ENTIRE person is evil.  Then the ENTIRE PERSON (or being) will be consumed until NOTHING is left. 

 

 

[Stan]

One of their arguments is that after they (wicked) are punished during the so-called eon, they will want to be saved. (According to the dude ive been debating.) So, it would not be forced then. 

 

I see this is not valid though - just look at the israelites, they over and over rejected God. Also Solomon.

​Chances are he believes that we are immortal..  We are not.  That is why we are call mortal 

[brotherly love]

One of their arguments is that after they (wicked) are punished during the so-called eon, they will want to be saved. (According to the dude ive been debating.) So, it would not be forced then. 

 

I see this is not valid though - just look at the israelites, they over and over rejected God. Also Solomon.

​The big glaring mistake is believing in something, and then making it up as a person goes. The bible does not make any claim that people will be punished and then want to be saved and then be saved. This is made up out of thin air. It is a problem that we should all be aware of, instead of making up stuff, sometimes we have to go back to the drawing board.

 

[RedSearch]

​And none of them repented?

- joe

"Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." (‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33‬:‭10-20‬ KJV)

[LifeHiscost]

 

​Your comment made me curious so I looked at the website again, and found this:

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/FactsConcerningDeath.html

- joe

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[RedSearch]

​I read your friends website for 2 minutes and I recognized his glaring mistake. He is trying to make the Greek word eon and the Hebrew word Olam mean the same thing. Words gain their meaning in context, not in isolation.

The use of a lexicon can be misleading to some because they will take a specific meaning and then press it into every text to facilitate a predetermined idea. words gain meaning by context.

He makes the same mistake with the word "all'. what is all? It can mean all of a specific group, it can mean the every human-again context determines the meaning.

Olam can mean a long time, a period of time, and it can  mean forever-context is key

Before the mountains were born
    or you brought forth the whole world,
    from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Would this mean that God is only God for a long time by your friends understanding of the word olam? The contrast with God being forever is with mountains (which last a long time) and the immortality of God.

 

Can you point me to good resources for the Hebrew and Greek for Olam, aion (eon), all. Or does this primarily come from Strongs?

Edited May 23, 2015 by RedSearch

[brotherly love]

Can you point me to good resources for the Hebrew and Greek for Olam, aion (eon), all. Or does this primarily come from Strongs?

​I would point you to the bible and study the word Olam in context. a single word gains its meaning in sentences and paragraphs, not in isolation. Sometimes it can mean a long time in the future, and sometimes it can mean a long time in the past, or it can mean a long time without end.

² Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

In order to claim eternal life, the same would have to be claimed for eternal shame and contempt. If this is only an age of eternal shame and contempt, then the same would have to apply with eternal life with God. There is no wriggle room here.

The same goes for this passage

⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

In reality, the subject of life after death is bigger than the word Olam