Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 12, 2005 Members Posted December 12, 2005 Quote: Vengeance is Mine, I will repay. Heb 10:30 How does this fit in with Jesus' words on the cross of "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"? Does the asking of forgiveness for someone who has done you wrong make a difference in God's statement about vengeance being His? Did God actually forgive the people who crucified Jesus? If it doesn't make a difference, and vengeance is still God's domain and plan, then why ask God for someone to be forgiven? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Hi Pam, Here's what comes to mind. Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Jesus did all that he could to save Judas but Judas would not respond to Jesus' love. Judas would have been forgiven up until the time when he left the upper room. Joh 13:2 "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;" At that point Judas had done something that his mind would not recover from and in the end he hung himself. Eze 18:21 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?" Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Robert Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Quote: rudywoofs said: Did God actually forgive the people who crucified Jesus? Col 2:13 He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Those who murdered the Son of God had the forgiveness of all sin "in Jesus Christ", but I suppose many of them didn't accept His gift. Since Christ took mankind's 2nd death those who persistently and ultimately reject Christ's doing and dying will have to take the curse upon themselves! Quote
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Hi Rob, You have replied well. I said, Quote: Judas would have been forgiven up until the time when he left the upper room. Seeing that he was still living under the old covenant, before he killed himself, Judas did not have the priviledge of being a part of and experiencing humanity's death in Christ. He did not desire to even bring an offering for his sin but looked upon God as One who would not forgive Him. He took his own life and lost eternal life, not having desired to experience forgiveness in the old and excluded himself from new covenant Sacrifice. Sorry that I got off topic, I wanted to explain my comments. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 13, 2005 Author Members Posted December 13, 2005 Is *asking* for forgiveness a requirement to be forgiven, or can forgiveness be accepted without asking for it? :::thinks on it for a bit::: Is the *asking* for forgiveness maybe a part of *repentance*, whereas *accepting* forgiveness is more of an acknowledgement of wrongdoing (and isn't necessarily a repentant act)? sorry....I think my questions are about as clear as mud. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Clio Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Quote: rudywoofs said: Is *asking* for forgiveness a requirement to be forgiven, or can forgiveness be accepted without asking for it? :::thinks on it for a bit::: Is the *asking* for forgiveness maybe a part of *repentance*, whereas *accepting* forgiveness is more of an acknowledgement of wrongdoing (and isn't necessarily a repentant act)? sorry....I think my questions are about as clear as mud. Well, let's start with this... How are you forgiven if you do not ask? Either from Abba or from someone you've wronged? Will a truly contrite heart fail to ask for forgiveness? And it is truly contrite hearts to which Abba and Jesus respond. Acceptance of forgiveness is an act of faith, faith that you truly are forgiven and so therefore guilt, shame, and worry are wiped away. Does reframing the question help or did I make the mud worse? Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
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