Man the Head...

[there buster]

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I did in fact answer your question already.

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Looking back on the thread, the closest thing I could find to an answer is the following.

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I do not question that the word "head" can and does mean, leader, one in charge, chief, if the context calls for it, just as in the right context the word "run" means to be in charge, to control and operate (as in, I run this business). But I cannot ascribe that meaning to "run" in all of the other numerous contexts that give the word "run" a different meaning. So if I am attempting to illustrate a spiritual idea by saying I have run a good race, should that bring to mind a picture of putting physical effort into rapid forward motion on foot or organizing and putting on a great competition of others doing a foot race? Even though each is linguistically a possible meaning does the context tend to direct us toward what spiritual concept most resembles the discipline and effort of being in an Olympic foot race?

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If that's the answer, I confess I cannot figure out if it's yes or no for this pasaage.

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your stuck in a rut question

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my bone-headed thoughts

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I point out once more that I have not characterized your answers or posts in a derogatory fashion.

If I only care abou the meaning of the text, why do I continue to interact with you?

Because no scripture is of any private interpretation. I do not engage in hermeneutics as an academic exercise. We, as the church come to an understanding of the scriptures together. We build that understanding on the areas we believe in common, the areas where we agree. If we cannot agree on fundamental issues, then there we must decide how central this lack of agreement is in the common faith. Some areas are central to the faith, like Jesus as Savior. Others, like "adornment," while not inconsequential, are still far from central issues.

So, if we proceed to a discussion of the meaning of Ephesians 5 we do so together. If not, that's another choice.

If "head" in this passage means, as Sumner indicates, just the "top," like the dorsal fin is the top of the fish, then we have a gap of understanding which will make proceeding fruitless.

If "head" means, in some sense, leadership and authority in this passage, then it can be useful to explore just how and to what degree that leadership and authority are implemented.

So, I'm trying to understand if proceeding will be fruitful.

[Gerr]

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Tom Wetmore said:

**Bump**

So of the 40 or so folks that took a peek at this topic, did nobody have a reaction or response?!?

What does this interpretation of the head/body metaphor do for the headship notions regarding the roles of men and women in the church?

Tom

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[:"blue"]Perhaps we can get a better idea what it means for the husband to be head of the wife if we pay attention the parallelism with: "as also Christ is head of the church." What does Christ being the head of the church mean? [/]

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

I agree, Gerry. Some of the evidence of what it means for Christ to be head of the church is found earlier in Ephesians where Paul introduces Christ as head in this letter. In 4:15,16 Paul speaks of From Christ the head the whole body is held together, grows and builds itself up in love. Chapter 5 opens with reference to Christ giving himself up for us as a "fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." And this is precisely the quality of Christ's "headship" that Paul develops in the parallel headship of a husband in 5:23 with reference to Christ as Savior of his body the church. Paul confirms the husbandly role is to love the wife "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" purifying her for himself. He directly tells a husband to love his wife as his own body, feeding and caring for it as Christ does for the church, His body. Paul summarizes the parallel by describing the mystery of the uniting of husband and wife, two becoming one flesh as the profound mystery of Christ and the church.

As Bravus pointed out early on, the concept of Christ's servant leadership is the key. The description of Christ washing and cleansing his church seems an allusion to Christ's example in humbling himself to the lowest servant to wash the dirty feet of his disciples.

Tom

[Clio]

What I am posting is long. No doubt. Sorry about that.

It is, however, a testimony, not an exegis. It is what it is, and is my personal experience with this topic. An understanding reached after months of weeping before the Lord, and where He led me.

My husband and I celebrated 20 years together this month instead of getting a divorce in June of 2000, because I was obedient.

To this.

Here goes.

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This question was asked on another forum, by a man.

OK ladies, do you think you should be silent slaves to your husbands (and pastors) to obey their every whim? Any of you currently doing it?

(And this is my response to it.)

At the risk of being flamed, I'm going to make a qualified positive answer.

First of all, God is very clear on how the lines of authority in relationships are drawn. In 1 Corinthians 11:3 (NLT) it says: [:"blue"] "But there is one thing I want you to know: A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God."[/]

If you realize that the Bible never contradicts itself, and re-read the first 3 chapters of Genesis, you will also see that it was not at the time of the fall that God placed man in a position of authority over his wife.

In Genesis 2:7 we are told clearly that God created man first. [:"blue"] "And the LORD God formed a man's body from the dust of the ground and breathed into it the breath of life. And the man became a living person."[/]

It is not until AFTER Adam had named all the animals that woman was created in verses 21 and 22 of Genesis 2. [:"blue"] "21So the LORD God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep. He took one of Adam's ribs and closed up the place from which he had taken it.22Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib and brought her to Adam."[/]

And in verse 23 Adam names her, just as he named everything else over which he was given the responsibility. [:"blue"] "23"At last!" Adam exclaimed. "She is part of my own flesh and bone! She will be called `woman,' because she was taken out of a man."24This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one"[/]

The husband has always been the one in authority. At the fall it became a contentious relationship.

Genesis 3:16 [:"blue"] "Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, he will be your master."[/]

The point of this is that husbandly authority is God given. HOWEVER, Nowhere did God want the wife to blindly do whatever her husband or pastor told her. Read Proverbs 31:10-33. It's too long a passage to quote here, but the woman described in that passage is not a wimp, slave, or weak.

Yes, I live in biblical submission to my husband every single day. I have seen tremendous healing in our marriage, and my trust in my God and my husband has grown exponentially! I give my husband respect, honor, and reverence. When he says "no", I don't whine, noodle, nag, bitch, or anything else.

Well, in honesty, I try. I occasionally have rebellion in my heart and it shows... but I am beginning to have more victory in this area with God's help and I love that feeling! So now I can see benefits and it's easier to accept a "no". Another thing I've noticed, is when I don't have heart-felt and understood respect and a volutarily fitting in with his plans in my heart, I start interrupting him. It's the first sign my heart isn't where it should be and I'm stepping out from under his authority.

Immediate and fervent prayer is the only recourse, and it's hard to do that because I'd really rather be the one in charge!

1 Peter 3:1-7 (NLT) makes the proper relationship between a husband and wife very clear, and points out serious consequences to the husband if he fails in his headship duty to his wife:[:"blue"] 1In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands, even those who refuse to accept the Good News. Your godly lives will speak to them better than any words. They will be won over 2by watching your pure, godly behavior. 3Don't be concerned about the outward beauty that depends on fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. 4You should be known for the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God. 5That is the way the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands. 6For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, when she called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.[/]

Husbands are given their admonition in the very next verse:[:"blue"]7In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.[/]

My husband is newly a Christian, and I have prayed daily as I live the 1 Peter 3:1-5 walk. I stand in intercessory prayer for him, and it was only as I came to a true understanding of Christian submission that my marriage has began to heal, that visible signs of God's working on my husband's heart began, that my children's attitudes changed, that all 3 of my children have been baptized, that our finances were blessed, and absolute direct miracles happened in our lives.

It should be noted in all the verses relating to submission that in no place is the wife directed to submit to ANY man but her own husband! That includes pastors, head elders, deacons, or any other man in a position of authority. Submission is an act of intimate faith. One that vibrates in every fiber of your being. That level of intimacy is reserved for a woman's husband, her Lord and Saviour Jesus, and Abba Father.

It is also important that the husband realize that he must also submit to his wife, and that his headship in no way makes her less than his equal. Just as Jesus authority to Abba in no way makes Him less than an equal member of the God-Head.

Just as it is stated in 1 Corinthians 11:3 [:"blue"]But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.[/](KJV).

When several friends were considering a biblical blueprint for their future marriage, we dug deeply into this topic together. The Proverbs 31 woman and what it says about a Godly, ie: submissive wife, is quite an eyeopener.

It's important that we state clearly what a submissive wife is, and is not.

One thing she is not, is a doormat. So here's my 2 cents worth, keeping in mind that when I first studied this topic in depth, I was married to a man who was anti-everything Christian and although he has accepted Jesus now, he is still a baby Christian.

I'm going to requote the text in Ephesians 5:22-33 (This is taken from the NLT version).

[:"blue"]And further, you will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.22You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord.23For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior.24As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything.25And you husbands must love your wives with the same love Christ showed the church. He gave up his life for her26to make her holy and clean, washed by baptism and God's word.27He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault.28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man is actually loving himself when he loves his wife.29No one hates his own body but lovingly cares for it, just as Christ cares for his body, which is the church.30And we are his body.31As the Scriptures say, "A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one."32This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one.33So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.[/]

Submission does not mean doormat. Submission means there can only be one head of the home, and God ordained that it should be the husband who is accountable. Yes, a wife is to submit to her husband, but he has responsibilities too. And he can either be a good Head or a bad Head of the Home, but either way, he's going to be the Head of the Home.

I know you've probably read the scripture about a wife's submission, but take note of the husband's responsibilities in the above passage.

Note that married partners are to submit to each other, but that the husband is accountable to God.

In the Greek in which Ephesians is written the word for submit is hupotasso {hoop-ot-as'-so}

A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

None of that describes a doormat.

Proverbs 31 describes in detail a wife of noble and Godly character.

Starting in Verse 11:

[:"blue"]11Her husband can trust her, and she will greatly enrich his life.12She will not hinder him but help him all her life.13She finds wool and flax and busily spins it.[/]

In other words she has the ability to clothe her household and her husband trusts her.

[:"blue"]14She is like a merchant's ship; she brings her food from afar.15She gets up before dawn to prepare breakfast for her household and plan the day's work for her servant girls.[/]

She understands logistics and management.

[:"blue"]16She goes out to inspect a field and buys it; with her earnings she plants a vineyard.[/]

She understands real estate, the value of money, and has the ability to earn money, invest it and make it grow. Vineyards were a source of renewable wealth when these words were written.

[:"blue"]17She is energetic and strong, a hard worker.18She watches for bargains; her lights burn late into the night.19Her hands are busy spinning thread, her fingers twisting fiber.[/]

She is thrifty, and makes the most of her finances,

[:"blue"]20She extends a helping hand to the poor and opens her arms to the needy.[/]

And yet she is generous to those in need.

[:"blue"]21She has no fear of winter for her household because all of them have warm clothes.[/]

She has foresight and planning skills, and uses them.

[:"blue"]22She quilts her own bedspreads. She dresses like royalty in gowns of finest cloth.[/]

She dresses well, modestly, but becomingly. Royalty... Am I his queen of his home?

[:"blue"]23Her husband is well known, for he sits in the council meeting with the other civic leaders.[/]

She supports her husband's public reputation.

[:"blue"]24She makes belted linen garments and sashes to sell to the merchants.[/]

She can earn a living.

[:"blue"]25She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs with no fear of the future.26When she speaks, her words are wise, and kindness is the rule when she gives instructions. 27She carefully watches all that goes on in her household and does not have to bear the consequences of laziness.[/]

She is wise, kind, and has supervisory and teaching skills.

[:"blue"]28Her children stand and bless her. Her husband praises her:29"There are many virtuous and capable women in the world, but you surpass them all!"30Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the LORD will be greatly praised.31Reward her for all she has done. Let her deeds publicly declare her praise.[/]

This is not a doormat, but it is a Christian wife who chooses to voluntarily submit and fit in with her husbands plans. (1 Peter 3:1-5)

As I worked through this rather difficult study (for me!) I came across this incredible article by Val Stares, an Australian writer. I quote it here in it's entirety, because at first, although skeptical, because it followed what I was reading in the Bible, I decided to try something similar.

I am still married today, and my husband is now a Christian on fire for Jesus because I was obedient in walking out what I learned, in spite of how much I didn't want to, totally rejected the idea that this could work, and generally entered in to this with a well-hidden (I thought) spirit of rebellion tucked away deep inside.

The article:

[:"purple"]"The Bible was open before me and notes were everywhere as I waited on God to give me this anointed message on submission. You can imagine my shock when several hours into this study God spoke to me and said, "Val, you cannot teach this message." A little unnerved I asked, "Why not?" His answer to my heart was, "Because you don’t know what submission is!"

Now I don’t mind admitting that I was shocked.

"Lord, do you realise that I’m Val Stares from Above Rubies? I’ve always encouraged submission." "Yes," was the reply, "but you still don’t know how to submit." By now I was on the defensive. "But. Lord, you know that every time I want something, or desire to go somewhere, I always ask my husband first."

"And what is his reply?"

"He says for me to please myself. Oh yes, he always adds, ‘you usually do.’ I don’t know why he says that because he’s already given me permission to do what I think best. After all, Lord, if I didn’t want what I asked for, I wouldn’t ask for it."

"If you are serious about learning submission, Val,then I want you to go to your husband and tell him that from now on he needs to answer you, "yes" or

"no." If he says that you can please yourself, then you will take that as his disapproval and will stay home or go without. There is to be no pouting, no banging doors, no attitude of annoyance or hurt when this happens."

I desired to obey the Lord, so I bowled out to the shed where my husband could always be found. He is a cabinetmaker and works at home. I shared with him the plan that God had laid out before me. "I can’t wait!" he roared, laughing. "You’ll never be able to do it." I felt annoyed at him for thinking I was so weak, but it didn’t matter, as I didn’t want to go anywhere or have anything at that time. So far, the strategy was easy.

About three weeks later, a visiting speaker came to town. Everyone was excited. "Are you coming, Val?" I was asked. "Sure I will," I answered. "I wouldn’t miss this for anything." Finally it was time to ask my husband if I could go. Out to the shed I went, told him what was happening and asked if I could go. As usual, I left everything until the last minute! Can you guess his reply? "Please yourself, you usually do."

Suddenly I remembered my pact with God. I was speechless as the enormity of the situation began to impact my brain. I can’t go! Worse still, I can’t say anything. I raced into the bedroom and pleaded with God, "He’s forgotten he has to say "yes" or "no." Can’t I just remind him?" "No" came the answer to my heart. Perhaps pleading would help. "Lord, this is a special overseas visitor to our church. He may never come this way again. His message could change my life. I’m told I shouldn’t miss his teaching."

"I’m teaching you." Was the awesome reply. By now you would think I would be still, but no, I had to have one more shot. "Lord, couldn’t I just have a shower and get ready so that it will help to jog my husband’s memory."

"No!"

It was too much for me. I couldn’t do anything. My emotions were getting the better of me. If I was going to obey God, I would have to divert them. I began cleaning the house to help relieve the tension. Around the time I should have left for the meeting, my husband walked in to find me cleaning.

"I thought you were going out to a meeting," he said. You would have been proud of me. As sweetly as I could manage, and it wasn’t easy, I answered. "No, darling. Remember I told you that from now on I’m not going to please myself. God said you have to say ‘yes" or "no", otherwise I must stay home. What do you think happened? He relented and said I could go? No. My husband is a gentleman and very slow to anger. This time he was livid! "If you want to be so stupid, you can stay home!" he shouted as he stormed out. It was then that the full revelation of what God was teaching me became clear.

I had overridden my husband’s decision so many times that he was now robbed of any desire to lead. He must have felt so cheated. Now, by God’s hand, he was responsible for me staying home, but what hurt me most was the realisation that it was me, the Christian wife, who had robbed him![/]

(I bold this here, because this is what struck my heart to the quick. It was EXACTLY what I had done to my husband for 15 years!!!! In Spades!)

[:"purple"]I wasn’t bossy when we married. I just grew that way. My husband is a cautious man and rather slow at making decisions. My impatience at waiting for an answer caused me to make more and more decisions myself and he would go along with me for the sake of peace. When you’ve got children hanging out for answers, it’s easy to get caught up in this syndrome.

I stayed home for several weeks after that, while we both learned our respective roles. I thought I’d have to stay home forever! Gradually, my husband began to say "yes" or "no" without the added adage of pleasing myself.

As I continued to study the scriptures on the subject of submission, I realised that this was something I had to do of my own volition.

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit yourself unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

Are you like me and sometimes wish he hadn’t written that last phrase?

Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourself unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

The Greek word for ‘submission’ is ‘hupotasso’ which means ‘to place yourself under.’ In each of these scriptures, God is telling us ‘to place ourselves under our husband’s authority.’ God is not telling husbands to make us obey or make us come under their authority. We do it because we love God and our husbands, and because He has asked us to. It is our choice.

In my mind I saw my broom raised to a horizontal position above my head. The handle was labeled, "My husband’s Authority." I could see that if he were in his rightful position, I would be able to walk beneath it in an upright position. This upright position was one of honour, security, love – and a surprise I didn’t expect or notice until much later – power!

As I pondered my imaginary broom handle, I realized that I couldn’t stand upright beneath my husband’s authority. No, I would have to bend to get beneath it, mainly because he had been slowly robbed of his rightful authority, and secondly, because he now had no compulsion to take it up. My futile efforts only seemed to make matters worse. Just as my husband couldn’t make me submit, I wasn’t able to make him lead.

Both were individual heart decisions. God gently showed me that I would have to learn to bend my attitudes until I could get under his authority. I had to become flexible. Just because the things I wanted to do were good things, didn’t necessarily mean they were what my husband wanted to do. He could have other plans.

But then I realized that even bending wouldn’t be enough to get under his authority. It would take more than a little bending. Perhaps, if I kneeled! Oh what a humbling position, but if that was what it would take, I would go that far. I realized that I was measuring myself against Bill instead of the Word of God. I was the one who was reading the Word each day, praying, and going to all the church meetings and he wasn’t. But God wanted me to measure myself by the attitude of Jesus and His example in 1 Peter 2:18-23,

"For what glory is it, if when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? But if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps...Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously....Likewise, (with the same spirit of Jesus) ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the Word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation (the manner of life) of the wives."

I had become so religious that I had failed to see that I would be pleasing the Lord more by obeying and submitting to my husband than attending every church meeting and programme.

However, it still wasn’t low enough! There was only one position left! My husband’s authority was so low that I had to lie down to get under it. Yes, I had to lay down my life! To get my marriage back into its rightful order, I took this position. I placed myself there. No one made me. It took sacrifice and I had to lay down all my own rights. But I desired to be where God wanted me to be. It was the only position from where I could help my husband to take up his leadership role again.

With God’s help and guidance I took one step at a time. The hardest part lasted only for a season. The rewards are for a lifetime and eternity.

What happened to that feared and dreaded ‘door mat’, the so-called intimidated mousy wife who gets no say? It was a lie. It had no substance or power. I can now stand up straight, and walk upright, secure and loved under his protection. On this side of submission, I have more say because my opinion is of greater value than before.

One word of warning - submission is a daily practice, not a one-time act. I have to daily check my attitude and the humility of my heart. Is my life daily laid down for my best friend, my husband, Bill?"

VAL STARES

Gold Coast, Queensland [/]

I must say, that when I entered in to this with a whole heart, suffering the pain and emotional and spiritual turmoil that went with making such a contrary to cultural, societal, personal, and intuitive norms, it hurt. It was hard. It was by far the hardest change I ever made. But the rewards are phenomenal.

Clio <----putting on asbestos suit, steel toed boots, and flame retardant gloves....