Moderators LynnDel Posted May 22, 2015 Moderators Posted May 22, 2015 I've been thinking about this for awhile. It seems that we have decided that God already knows exactly what will happen in every minute of every life here on earth. Though I believe it when the Bible says He knows the end from the beginning, I tend to think that thought has to do with our redemption and the end of sin. If God knows every detail of our future lives now, what kind of game is He playing? If He knew every decision Israel would make through its history, how can there possibly be what many call "conditional" prophecies? If a God with foreknowledge makes a promise on the condition of righteous acts by the people, knowing that the people will fail, He's holding a goal that's beyond their reach, and He knows they'll never achieve it. It just doesn't make sense to me. rudywoofs (Pam) and Naomi 2 Quote LD
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 23, 2015 Members Posted May 23, 2015 If everything that we do is preordained, then it's not free will. And if God knows what choices we will make, and the outcomes.... I don't know... that doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't it be something akin to God watching a boring movie? Much more reasonable to think that He knows that we will have choices to make, and that He has contingency plans available for whatever choices are made. LynnDel and Tom Wetmore 2 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 23, 2015 Moderators Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Richard Rice once wrote a book titled THE OPENNESS OF GOD. That book discussed this same subject and took the position that God does not know in that detail. An interesting book that was published by a SDA publisher. Edited May 23, 2015 by Gregory Matthews LynnDel 1 Quote Gregory
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 23, 2015 Moderators Posted May 23, 2015 Kindle has the book for $10 and Amazon sells a paperback for $16. Voted one of Christianity Today's 1995 Books of the Year! The Openness of God presents a careful and full-orbed argument that the God known through Christ desires "responsive relationship" with his creatures. While it rejects process theology, the book asserts that such classical doctrines as God's immutability, impassibility and foreknowledge demand reconsideration. The authors insist that our understanding of God will be more consistently biblical and more true to the actual devotional lives of Christians if we profess that "God, in grace, grants humans significant freedom" and enters into relationship with a genuine "give-and-take dynamic." The Openness of God is remarkable in its comprehensiveness, drawing from the disciplines of biblical, historical, systematic and philosophical theology. Evangelical and other orthodox Christian philosophers have promoted the "relational" or "personalist" perspective on God in recent decades. Now here is the first major attempt to bring the discussion into the evangelical theological arena.[/quote] Quote Gregory
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 24, 2015 Administrators Posted May 24, 2015 I have read it as well ash another book on the same subject written by a number of theologians including Richard Rice. I have read a number of other articles discussing Open Theology and once attended a small group discussion with Richard Rice. I think there is much to give serious consideration to from this topic. Here is a wiki article on open theism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism and a short wiki article about Richard Rice - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rice_(theologian) . Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
pnattmbtc Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Richard Rice once wrote a book titled THE OPENNESS OF GOD. That book discussed this same subject and took the position that God does not know in that detail. An interesting book that was published by a SDA publisher. It's not that God doesn't know the future in detail, but that the future itself is not single-threaded. That is, the common idea is that the future is like a move that can just be played, and God knows what the end of the movie will be. The Open Theism idea is that there are many, many movies, and God can see the end of all of them, but there is no way of knowing which movie will be chosen, because it hasn't happened yet. The issue has primarily to do with the nature of the future. Everyone is agreeing that God see the future perfectly, but what it means to see the future perfectly differs depending upon what the nature of the future is. If the future is single-threaded, then seeing the future perfectly would entail knowing what will happen precisely at any moment in time. But if the future consists of the trillions of possibilities (really much more than this), then to see the future perfectly would entail seeing these trillions of possibilities. Rice's position on the Openness of God rises as a protest against the Greek idea that God is timeless. The Greek idea is that since God is perfect, God cannot change, because any change could only be for the worse. We would agree with this in terms of God's character, but the Greeks took this idea to the extreme such that God cannot think or plan or experience emotion because to think or plan or experience emotions would involve a sequence of time, and God (according to this idea) does not experience any sequence of time. That is, there is no "before, now, and after" for God, only "now", so God cannot think because thinking involves a sequence of events (before you didn't have the thought, then you did; there was never a time when God didn't have the thought). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 26, 2015 Administrators Posted May 26, 2015 Several imperfect analogies help to understand the idea of God's foreknowledge in that does not eliminate our free will. It is like a chess master knowing from each move you make, the many ways the game will end. He has a game plan to win and knows the moves that will get him to that end at each move you make. Each time you move it either plays into his plan or causes a recalculation on his part to recalibrate his plan to win. If he has played with you before, he will know better how to predict what moves you are most likely to make in a given situation and therefore more precisely predict the series of moves that will end the game. Another analogy is that it is like a fairly sophisticated computer program, perhaps a computer game with multiple outcomes. Each choice you make the program knows what decision tree of choices will get you to the end goal. Someone who knows the program very well can watch you play and predict how it will turn out at certain critical junctions. A variant of this that many of us experience is how a GPS works. You set your current location and destination and the mapping algorithm can offer multiple paths to the destination. Not heading its instructions will cause it to recalculate to either get you back on course or map an alternate. You will arrive at your destination, maybe not in the best time or shortest route, but you will arrive. I recall only stumping a GPS once to the point it "gave up" and quit giving me alternatives or rerouting instructions. I intentionally disregarded it knowing that their would be a point at which there would be no alternatives to get where I needed to go with the parameters I had set. Open theism gives room for a very wise God knowing how every choice or event or situation alters the course of human and individual history and what it will take to keep things moving inevitable toward His ultimate goal to save mankind. Each choice we make will either confirm His planned course of events for us or cause Him to make a recalculation. Unlike the limitations of the GPS, He can always find a viable alternative. I may not be easy or smooth sailing, but He can show us a path to our destination. He just have to trust his directions. JoeMo, phkrause and CoAspen 3 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Lauralea Posted May 30, 2015 Posted May 30, 2015 I believe He can see all of the various permutations and implications of our choices, but also sees the ones we will make ultimately. Unchained 1 Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us.
Unchained Posted May 30, 2015 Posted May 30, 2015 God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As humans we cannot fully understand the mind of God because he exceeds our understanding. His knowledge is without boundaries and he certainly knows every little detail of the future. In spite of this we still have a free choice! On the other hand I feel that we've sometimes abused the concept of "conditional prophecy”. We often invoke “conditional prophecy” when there's something in the Bible (or more commonly, in the writings of EGW) that we don't quite understand. I'm not saying that the term is entirely unwarranted, but I think we should be careful and make sure we're not overlooking something before we use this card... Quote
whbae Posted May 30, 2015 Posted May 30, 2015 AS I was growing up I wondered many times about how God knows everything what I do. How can He be all the time where I am. Come the computer age, now I can understand how God knows every thing about what I do. The NSA spies on us and knows just about everything what we do. The computer knowledge is so sophisticated it makes me understand God better. For instance, how did U.S. know about Iranian developing nuclear weapons without any spy actually being there. I heard on tv the other day about "Hacking". The U.S. does not admit it was one of the guys in U.S. hacked into the Iranian nuclear facility. There were a lot of rumors that when Iran will have nukes, but how could they predict this. Someone hacked into the computer and found out exactly how this facility was operating and what schedule they placed to the centrifuge so that at certain time the centrifuge will spin at certain speed to generate the nuclear material. So this hacker disabled the schedule to malfunction the centrifuge. This kind of hacking went through a satellite. The nuclear scientists in Iran did not even know what happened. If our human wisdom can generate this sort of knowledge why can't God know everything of our future, after all, our human wisdom and knowledge come from God. Quote
Members phkrause Posted May 30, 2015 Members Posted May 30, 2015 Won, they got that info from Israel Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
joeb Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Using fractals it is possible predict traffic tie ups and overall traffic patterns. If that is possible how is it that God, with infinite mathematical capability cannot predict human behavior down to the smallest behaviors? He predicted Cyrus' behavior long before he was born. He did he same with Jacob and Esau. He knew them in the womb. This has nothing to do with having a free will. He knows us. He created us. He designed humanity. Do you not think that the person who designs something cannot predict how it will behave? He doesn't have to interfere with our choices or force our will to know how we will behave. He knows us, He knows all of humanity, from the ground up, so to speak. Pun not intended.... Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 31, 2015 Members Posted May 31, 2015 He knows all of humanity, from the ground up, so to speak. Pun not intended.... maybe not intended, but still a good turn of words!! Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
joeb Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 maybe not intended, but still a good turn of words!! Thank you, rudywoofs. I appreciate that. That you said it, after all the words between us, means a lot. rudywoofs (Pam) 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As humans we cannot fully understand the mind of God because he exceeds our understanding. His knowledge is without boundaries and he certainly knows every little detail of the future. In spite of this we still have a free choice! This is logically inconsistent, if we define "free choice" as libertarian or incompatibilist free will. Sorry for the fancy words, but I don't believe it's possible to discuss the subject without defining terms. Compatibilist free will means that a person is free to do what they want to do. It's called "compatibilist" because it's logically compatible with the concept of determinism, which is what the view of future being proposed (known is "simple foreknowledge") logically implies. The future is determined means it is fixed, or certain to happen. For example, the fact that I will have pizza tomorrow for lunch is certain to happen, but since I don't have perfect foreknowledge, I don't perceive this, but since God does have perfect foreknowledge, He knows this is certain to happen. And since God knows it is certain to happen, it *is* certain to happen, and nothing I can do (or anybody) can change this, by definition of what "certain to happen" means. For the compatibilist, this isn't a problem, because their definition of "free will" means being able to do what you want to do. So if I want to have pizza tomorrow, and this is certain to happen, what's the problem? That's the idea. For those who believe in libertarian free will, however, being able to do what I want isn't enough. Libertarian free will (or "incompatibilist" free will) means I not only can do what I want to do, but I can choose to do either this or that. I can choose to have pizza, or not have pizza, and the future isn't determined until I determine it by my decision. If I haven't determined it, then the future action doesn't exist in any way that could be foreseen, except as a possibility. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 joeb:Using fractals it is possible predict traffic tie ups and overall traffic patterns. If that is possible how is it that God, with infinite mathematical capability cannot predict human behavior down to the smallest behaviors? It's not possible to predict such things (traffic tie ups) in a deterministic way, but only in a probabilistic way. God can predict behaviors down to the smallest behaviors, in a probabilistic way, not deterministic, unless we are determined to do certain things (either because God has determined it, or because of our characters). There are all sorts of examples in Scripture where God speaks probabilistically; He doesn't always speak deterministically. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 It's not possible to predict such things (traffic tie ups) in a deterministic way, but only in a probabilistic way. God can predict behaviors down to the smallest behaviors, in a probabilistic way, not deterministic, unless we are determined to do certain things (either because God has determined it, or because of our characters). There are all sorts of examples in Scripture where God speaks probabilistically; He doesn't always speak deterministically. I'm not someone who is deterministic in outlook or belief. I am very emphatically in support of free will. I've seen most (I say most because I haven't engaged in debates on this for a few years) of the arguments for determinism and reject them. I've looked at Open Theism too. I've taken part in debates concerning it and have seen parts of it I agree with and parts of it I have to reject based upon the plain word of God. The only systematic view of the Bible that answers all the questions I've asked or seen asked is the Great Controversy. It makes the Bible make very plain sense. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) It's not possible to predict such things (traffic tie ups) in a deterministic way, but only in a probabilistic way. God can predict behaviors down to the smallest behaviors, in a probabilistic way, not deterministic, unless we are determined to do certain things (either because God has determined it, or because of our characters). There are all sorts of examples in Scripture where God speaks probabilistically; He doesn't always speak deterministically. Hmmm.... I get an error when I post, ex28, and it double posts this.... Edited June 1, 2015 by joeb Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) I've taken part in debates concerning it and have seen parts of it I agree with and parts of it I have to reject based upon the plain word of God. Maybe not. Maybe you've rejected ideas for some other reason. Here's a text: What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones? (Isa.5:4) (NASB) There are lots of verses like this. The only systematic view of the Bible that answers all the questions I've asked or seen asked is the Great Controversy. It makes the Bible make very plain sense. How about "The Desire of Ages"? I've learned a lot from that book too. Edited June 2, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Aliensanctuary Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Jesus Christ was kept informed by the Messengers of the events that he would experience, especially during his final days of life before returning to his Father. I would suspect that his Father existed in the future, or, was able to access information from the future. Likewise, the End Times prophecies were either already history for the LORD, or, he could access the information via Spirit. I think YHVH is actually from the future and exists in the future. When time is no more, then we will have caught up to that future. In other words, those who are chosen for the Kingdom may very well be transported into a different place and time. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
joeb Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Maybe not. Maybe you've rejected ideas for some other reason. Here's a text: There are lots of verses like this. How about "The Desire of Ages"? I've learned a lot from that book too. Ummm.... The Desire of Ages is a book on the life of Christ. The Great Controversy is the story of the war between God and the devil. Ellen White traces that war from the fall of Lucifer to the destruction of evil in the series entitled The Conflict of the Ages. Those books are Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, The Desire of Ages, Acts of the Apostles, and The Great Controversy. Just what is your purpose in quoting from Isaiah? I don't see how those texts somehow are at odds with my beliefs on free will.... Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Ummm.... The Desire of Ages is a book on the life of Christ. The Great Controversy is the story of the war between God and the devil. Ellen White traces that war from the fall of Lucifer to the destruction of evil in the series entitled The Conflict of the Ages. Those books are Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, The Desire of Ages, Acts of the Apostles, and The Great Controversy. Just what is your purpose in quoting from Isaiah? I don't see how those texts somehow are at odds with my beliefs on free will.... The chapter "It Is Finished" is the finest I've read regarding the purpose of Christ's death. The very first chapter is the finest one chapter description of the Great Controversy I've read. The Desire of Ages has lots of nice theological chapters too. The quote in Isaiah said that the Israelites brought forth wild grapes, which is not what He expected. If the future were a single-threaded thing, then God would have known exactly what they would do, and there would be no way that they could do something He didn't expect. There are many texts like this; this was just one example. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 A variant of this that many of us experience is how a GPS works. You set your current location and destination and the mapping algorithm can offer multiple paths to the destination. Not heading its instructions will cause it to recalculate to either get you back on course or map an alternate. You will arrive at your destination, maybe not in the best time or shortest route, but you will arrive. I recall only stumping a GPS once to the point it "gave up" and quit giving me alternatives or rerouting instructions. I intentionally disregarded it knowing that their would be a point at which there would be no alternatives to get where I needed to go with the parameters I had set. Open theism gives room for a very wise God knowing how every choice or event or situation alters the course of human and individual history and what it will take to keep things moving inevitable toward His ultimate goal to save mankind. Each choice we make will either confirm His planned course of events for us or cause Him to make a recalculation. Unlike the limitations of the GPS, He can always find a viable alternative. I may not be easy or smooth sailing, but He can show us a path to our destination. He just have to trust his directions. Great analogy, Tom! I explained this concept to my small group a while back. Because of our free will, "Jesus take the wheel" is a prayer (IMO) He can't say "yes" to. The best He can do (because of self-imposed limitations out of respect for our free will) is to be that supernatural GPS with infinite solutions to get us back on the right road no matter how far off the path we go. Some day,when we find ourselves sufficiently lost, we have to have faith that the GPS (Jesus and His Spirit) can and will guide us back to the highway to heaven. No matter where we are, God has a plan to lead us back to Himself. I do believe in predestination - we are all predestined to be saved. Prince Charles is predestined to be the King of England (if he doesn't die of old age before Liz). However, he has the free will to refuse that predestination and abdicate the throne. We are in the same boat - we are predestined to rule as kings and princes with Christ. However, due to our free will, we can refuse that kingship and abdicate our "throne". It also means abdicating eternal life. Quote
joeb Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 The chapter "It Is Finished" is the finest I've read regarding the purpose of Christ's death. The very first chapter is the finest one chapter description of the Great Controversy I've read. The Desire of Ages has lots of nice theological chapters too. The quote in Isaiah said that the Israelites brought forth wild grapes, which is not what He expected. If the future were a single-threaded thing, then God would have known exactly what they would do, and there would be no way that they could do something He didn't expect. There are many texts like this; this was just one example. As far as I'm concerned the best chapter in DofA is Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled. In it are some very great promises as to what God can do for us, if we believe. It's a tremendous chapter on faith, and what God can do for us if we will only truly believe. As far as the quote from Isaiah goes I don't see still how it conflicts with my views on free will. Just because I don't agree with everything the Open Theists have to say doesn't mean I disagree with everything they say. I don't disagree with everything a Calvinist says either. I think both "systems" go wrong in that they attempt to fit the entire Bible into a system. That means they force meanings on things, they read into texts what they want to see inside of a system. That's why they are called systems. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 As far as I'm concerned the best chapter in DofA is Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled. In it are some very great promises as to what God can do for us, if we believe. It's a tremendous chapter on faith, and what God can do for us if we will only truly believe. As far as the quote from Isaiah goes I don't see still how it conflicts with my views on free will. Just because I don't agree with everything the Open Theists have to say doesn't mean I disagree with everything they say. I don't disagree with everything a Calvinist says either. I think both "systems" go wrong in that they attempt to fit the entire Bible into a system. That means they force meanings on things, they read into texts what they want to see inside of a system. That's why they are called systems. Since I can't read your mind, I can't disagree that anything I say would disagree with what you're thinking. So I can't answer your question as to how it disagrees with your view, unless you explain what your view is. Thanks for mentioning the DA Chapter. That's not one I can just say out of my head what it says. I know best the two I mentioned, and the "Gethsemane" and "Calvary" chapters. And "Unto You a Savior". Those are the ones which come to mind immediately. What an amazing book. However, I'm also very fond of "The Great Controversy". The chapter "The First Great Deception" really helped tremendously how I view things. Also the first chapter on the destruction of Jerusalem around p. 37 IIRC. But so many other chapters too. I used to listen to the book read audibly, which helped fix it in my mind. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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