Who are "the rest of the dead" ?

[8thdaypriest]

I do not believe that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from the 6000 years (Adam to the SC). 

I believe those confirmed in rebellion will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting condemnation, at the SC (Daniel 12:2-3).  They will die as the earth is "burned up".  I don't believe they will ever be resurrected again.

Those confirmed in faithfulness will be raised to everlasting life at the SC. 

"The rest" will be left to sleep in death until the 8th millennium.  The "rest", I believe, will be those who died in ignorance (immaturity, mental disability, lack of information) which prevented their making a free will CHOICE. 

I do not believe that ALL of "the rest" will be saved.  But I do believe that some will CHOOSE to serve Christ.  When they are resurrected, they will constitute nations in the four corners of the earth. 

They will be taught and governed by the "priests of God and of Christ" (those raised at the SC to everlasting life).  It was the LORD's original intention that Israel be a "kingdom of priests" to teach and govern the nations of earth.  I believe His word will "not return to" Him void.  Israel (the redeemed) WILL "rule the nations" with Jesus. 

I would very much like to hear objections based in Scripture. 

Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[JoeMo]

I completely agree with Rachel's theory on this.  When I first started looking into it after Rachel joined CA, I thought it was more than a little weird.  After looking at the studues on her website and doing some independent study on my own, it makes perfect sense for a just and loving God to make sure everyone has the right info to make an intelligent choice for or against Him.  He's not gonna drag people into the Kingdom kicking and screaming; but He's not going to outright reject those who are ignorant of Him or have been indoctrinated into a perverted view of Him.

[8thdaypriest]

I started this new thread, because Jackson asked me to tell him what thread dealt with this subject.  It was an old thread, and only had 12 posts, so I thought I'd just start a new one. 

I realize that Mrs White believed that "the rest of the dead" would be only those judged "wicked" from from the 6000 years.  I read those descriptions for many years.  I've come to a softer understanding of Mrs. White's writings.  She herself says that she was only given "snapshots" and was NOT always given the explanation to go with the "snapshot" she "saw".  I believe that she, and the early church "fathers" of Adventism, fleshed in the "snapshots" from their own views, based upon their study up to that time. 

That is WHY I have turned to the Bible, not taking ANYTHING for granted.  I had to put the "red books" away, because the conclusions espoused from those books, were holding me back - keeping me from researching possible un-thought-of explanations.   

What I'm asking for here, is arguments FROM SCRIPTURE ONLY, that either support or refute the idea that "the rest of the dead" are all of those who died without ever having an opportunity to CHOOSE.

 

[8thdaypriest]

SETTING:  The Son of God comes in the clouds, with the armies of heaven

NIV  Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the [fiery] sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev 19:20 NIV)

Is THIS "lake of fire" the SAME as the "second death" lake of fire?  If it IS, then how could any who serve the Beast system, or his "false prophet", be raised again 1000 years later ( to kill them again)?  This verse says "the rest" are simply killed by the glory. 

NIV  Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

I think we would all agree, that Christ is the messenger (angel) who will throw Satan into the bottomless pit.  Satan is shut in that pit to prevent him "deceiving the nations anymore".  At the END of 1000 years, Satan will be released "for a short time."  He will immediately resume his deception of "the nations". 

Rev 20 continued:  4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

This sentence reminds me of the "court" scene in Daniel 7:9-10, which says,  "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. 10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened."

Rev 20 continued:  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Essentially the NIV says that everyone who was a martyr for refusing to worship the Beast power, comes to life at the SC, and will reign with Him.   We have to look to other passages, to learn that all those who "are Christ's" come to life at that event. 

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

OK - so someone remains DEAD for 1000 years - from the Second Coming event.  The "rest" are NOT "the Beast" - which is a system, not just one man or angel - a system that ranges over thousands of years.  And "the rest" are NOT "the false prophet". 

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Those who belong to Christ, raised at this event, are now immortal.    AND    "they will be priests of God and of Christ".    AND  they "will reign with him for 1000 years". 

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog-- and to gather them for battle.

WHEN Satan is released, there are "nations in the four corners of the earth".  So either these "nations" of people survived the last plagues, OR they were raised as "the rest" at the start of the 8th millennium.  The question is: Do "Gog and Magog" = "the rest of the dead" ??  OR   Are Gog and Magog, those from "the nations" that Satan is able to deceive?  In other words Gog and Magog, would not constitute ALL of those included in "the nations". 

In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This "fire" of God, seems to consume the hordes of Gog instantly.  But Satan and his angels are "tormented . . . forever and ever" in the "lake of fire".  It seems from the reading, that the END for the Hordes of Gog, is NOT quite the same as the punishment for Satan.   

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.   (Rev 20:1 NIV)

Will the Devil deceive all of "the nations" or only those who join his army of Gog/Magog?

For me, this passage in Revelation holds just as many questions, as answers.

[JoeMo]

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog-- and to gather them for battle.

WHEN Satan is released, there are "nations in the four corners of the earth".  So either these "nations" of people survived the last plagues, OR they were raised as "the rest" at the start of the 8th millennium.  The question is: Do "Gog and Magog" = "the rest of the dead" ??  OR   Are Gog and Magog, those from "the nations" that Satan is able to deceive?  In other words Gog and Magog, would not constitute ALL of those included in "the nations"....

For me, this passage in Revelation holds just as many questions, as answers.

​This is the one thing I still am not sure about - whether the millennium is on earth or elsewhere.  I can argue it both ways.  If the millennium is on earth, these people could be survivors of the last plagues.  It is not unreasonable to precieve that total destruction will be in the Middle East; but that pockets of people could survive elsewhere on the planet; and THOSE are the people over which the saved shall rule.  It is also completely resonable to conclude that the millennium will be elsewhere (in heaven?); and the last plagues are universal and 100% fatal to all remaining life on earth.  Of course, that means that there must be a rapture of the church immediately befor the bowls of wrath are poured out.

I lean towards the first interpretation; but I am not "convicted" of it.

[pnattmbtc]

My understanding is that the first resurrection includes the righteous, and the "rest of the dead", to be ressurected in the second ressurrection, includes those who weren't resurrected in the first resurrection .  That's how the word "rest" is normally used.  For example, if I say, "My wife and I will go first, and then a week later the rest of our family is going," this would be understood to mean that 2 of our are going now, and if there are x people in our family, x-2 would go a week later.

[8thdaypriest]

It is somewhat confusing, because the FIRST resurrection of righteous dead, took place on the day that Jesus was raised.  He then resurrected "saints who had fallen asleep" ( Matt 27:51-53). 

From the way that Rev 20:4 reads in several versions, only those who were "beheaded for their witness" will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

My understanding is that the first resurrection includes the righteous, and the "rest of the dead", to be ressurected in the second ressurrection, includes those who weren't resurrected in the first resurrection .  That's how the word "rest" is normally used.  For example, if I say, "My wife and I will go first, and then a week later the rest of our family is going," this would be understood to mean that 2 of our are going now, and if there are x people in our family, x-2 would go a week later.

​If the FIRST resurrection includes ONLY the righteous, then how do we understand Daniel 12:2-3?   Multitudes are raised at the SAME EVENT.

NIV  Daniel 12:2 [This is the day that Daniel's people are delivered.]    Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. (Dan 12:2 NIV)  Those raised to contempt would definitely be the lost, 'cause you don't come back from everlasting contempt. 

So here we have "multitudes" which are then separated when some are given everlasting life , AND "others" are labeled with shame and everlasting contempt.  Kinda like the separation of the sheep and goats.

NKJ  Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  . . . 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:  46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:30 NKJ)

So that would mean all children, the mentally handicapped, and all unreached pagans would be what?? - left like the beasts?? 

I see the righteous, and the wicked, and "the rest" who do "not live again" at the EVENT described to Daniel.

[Samie]

Talking about resurrection, I am a little bit wondering why none of the posters above referred to our Savior's words in John 5:28, 29.

[8thdaypriest]

At the first resurrection there is a special resurrection of those who pierced Him.

Rev  1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

​Graves are opened, and "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth. . . awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2. All who have died in the faith of the third angel's message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God's covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. "They also which pierced Him" (Revelation 1:7), those that mocked and derided Christ's dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient.  {GC 637.1}

Caiaphas the High Priest will be one of them resurrected at this time

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him (Caiaphas), Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

​Yes Jackson,

You're quoting Mrs White for your proofs.  She is the one who wrote about the "special" resurrection.  Here are a few other texts.

    Acts 24:15  “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

    NOTE: “a resurrection” - singular - involving BOTH the just and the unjust.

    Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . .  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

Looks like BOTH sheep and goats are gathered before Him - not just His sheep. 

    Romans 2:5-11  “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV)

Looks like the good guys and the bad guys receive their "reward' on the SAME "day" of judgment. 

    2 Timothy 4:1  “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”
    
    THIS is “the time of the dead that they should be judged” (Rev. 11:18).  At the appearing of Christ, the wicked who have died, will be raised to face judgment - but those "in Christ" are justified already - and will be raised to everlasting life. They will NOT be judged on this day!

Jude 1:14-15   “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints [holy ones], to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’”

"To execute judgment on all."  That's pretty inclusive. 

    2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

     In context Peter is definitely writing about events associated with the Second Coming.  “Perdition” simply means destruction.  The “ungodly” are judged and destroyed ON THIS DAY - the day that the earth is destroyed by fire!  THIS is just one reason why I do NOT believe that anyone remaining on the earth, will "survive the last plagues".  

[8thdaypriest]

    Matthew 12:41  “The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.”

    Matthew 12:42  “The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.”

 

So - "the men of Nineveh" and "the Queen of the South" will rise up with the generation that crucified Christ.  Hmmmmm. 

[8thdaypriest]

        Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) was the day when Israel anciently faced judgment.  Those who refused to bring a sin offering prior to that day, and to humble their hearts toward the LORD were “cut off” from the people on that day (Lev. 23:29)

Yom Kippur will be judgment and destruction day for unfaithful Israelites  and  for the “mixed multitude.”

    NOTE: To be “cut off” was a death sentence.
        NOTE:  Israel today consists of all those who have entered into covenant with the Father, thru Jesus Christ.  There is a study at my website titled “Israel - The People of God.”

    NOTE: The “mixed multitude” were also judged on Yom Kippur.  They traveled alongside Israel, thru the wilderness.  They knew the truth of Yahweh. They could not claim ignorance. Today I equate the “mixed multitude” with all of those today who live and work alongside committed believers, who do not themselves choose to “seek the LORD.”

I believe that the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy of Yom Kippur - the Day of Atonement, will be THE DAY when Christ returns for judgment.  THAT  will be THE DAY when Jesus will enter the judgment hall of Heaven to receive the dominion.  That will be THE DAY when the High Priest comes out of the Most Holy Place, to bless His waiting people.  THAT will be THE DAY when Jesus (the fit man) will banish Satan to the bottomless pit.  That DAY we will finally, literally experience at-one-ment with HIM. 

[joeb]

I do not believe that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from the 6000 years (Adam to the SC). 

I believe those confirmed in rebellion will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting condemnation, at the SC (Daniel 12:2-3).  They will die as the earth is "burned up".  I don't believe they will ever be resurrected again.

Those confirmed in faithfulness will be raised to everlasting life at the SC. 

"The rest" will be left to sleep in death until the 8th millennium.  The "rest", I believe, will be those who died in ignorance (immaturity, mental disability, lack of information) which prevented their making a free will CHOICE. 

I do not believe that ALL of "the rest" will be saved.  But I do believe that some will CHOOSE to serve Christ.  When they are resurrected, they will constitute nations in the four corners of the earth. 

They will be taught and governed by the "priests of God and of Christ" (those raised at the SC to everlasting life).  It was the LORD's original intention that Israel be a "kingdom of priests" to teach and govern the nations of earth.  I believe His word will "not return to" Him void.  Israel (the redeemed) WILL "rule the nations" with Jesus. 

I would very much like to hear objections based in Scripture. 

Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

​8thday,

What follows is part of the reason I have a problem with this theology of yours.  In your counting of resurrections you get really picky and don't just use the context of Revelation.  You count those who were resurrected at Christ's resurrection as part of the resurrections spoken of in Revelation.  Well, if you're going to do that then you need to count Christ's return after He went to see His Father after His resurrection in your count of "comings"....   You don't.  You just count resurrections so that they fit your resurrection theology. 

If you count His "coming" after His resurrection then what John calls His 2nd coming in Revelation is actually His 3rd coming.  If you're going to be logically consistent that's what you're going to have to do.  At least that's how I see it.  To count that resurrection and not the subsequent return to earth is pretty shaky.

[8thdaypriest]

​This is the one thing I still am not sure about - whether the millennium is on earth or elsewhere.  I can argue it both ways.  If the millennium is on earth, these people could be survivors of the last plagues.  It is not unreasonable to precieve that total destruction will be in the Middle East; but that pockets of people could survive elsewhere on the planet; and THOSE are the people over which the saved shall rule.  It is also completely resonable to conclude that the millennium will be elsewhere (in heaven?); and the last plagues are universal and 100% fatal to all remaining life on earth.  Of course, that means that there must be a rapture of the church immediately befor the bowls of wrath are poured out.

I lean towards the first interpretation; but I am not "convicted" of it.

​A FEW VERSES TO SUPPORT BELIEF THAT LAST PLAGUES ARE UNIVERSAL

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (NKJ)

If the "heavens AND the earth" are reserved for fire, that doesn't sound like the destruction is limited to the Middle East. 

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger. (NKJ)

This one also sounds worldwide. 

Mark 13:31  “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .”  (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36).

Genesis 6:13  “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’”

        Luke 17:26-30  “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: . . . the flood came and destroyed them all. 

Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. 

Fifth Bowl:  Darkness will cover the “kingdom of the beast” (Rev. 16:10).  

    The beast power rules the entire earth - therefore this plague of darkness will be universal.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, Mrs White wrote about it and the Bible verses I quoted give credence to it.  in my mind that is the only way any of the wicked could see Jesus coming at the 2nd Advent, including Caiaphus.

At the judgment prior to the Second Coming​ onlly those whose sins had gone into the sanctuary above were considered for salvation, and of those a number had subsequently had their names removed from the book of Life for iniquity..Those whose names were removed were judged unworthy for salvation and they joined  all those who had never had their sins brought to the sanctuary through sincere repentance. They and "the wicked" were not raised on the first resurrection and awaited the White Throne" judgment which occurs after the 1000 years. This judgment  after the 1000 years was not to be about their guilt for that had been determined  at the judgment prior to the Second coming as noted above.

The 'White Throne' judgment was to determine degree of punishment for those not part of the first resurrection.

Rev  20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. See Luke 12:47-48 for the parable  regarding this judgment.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. 
 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Caiaphus and those"who pierced him" were certainly not "the blessed and holy", so the only way they could see Jesus' Second Advent was to be part  of a special resurrection of those who were particularly responsibe for the Savoir's death.

1 Thes  4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The plagues come before Christ's Second Advent so according to scripture there will be those alive to meet the Lord when He comes contrary to your above acertion.
 

1 Thes  4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think the 91st psalm gives an apt description of God's protection of the righteous during the plagues.

 

​You say that the Great White Throne judgment is to determine the degree of punishment (how long each one will suffer).  THAT comes from EGW.  I don't find THAT anywhere in the Bible. 

Again, the idea that the 7 bowls of wrath come BEFORE the Second Coming, is from EGW.  If you look in Great Controversy, she says "these plagues are not universal".   But the LAST bowls ARE universal.  Which would mean that Mrs White was seeing the trumpet warning judgments - NOT the BOWL judgments. 

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson said,

The 'White Throne' judgment was to determine degree of punishment for those not part of the first resurrection.

Rev  20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. See Luke 12:47-48 for the parable  regarding this judgment.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The order of events described :

1. The 1000 years expires

2.  Satan is loosed from his prison

3.  There are nations in the four corners of the earth

4.  Satan goes out to deceive them

5.  Gog and Magog (from the nations) comes up to attack the "camp of the saints and the beloved city"

6.  God defends His city.  Fire comes down and consumes them

7.  THEN John sees a Great White throne (So this judgment is AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle)

8.  John sees THE DEAD (they are not alive) standing before this Great throne (So they are in Sheol - the abode of the dead)

9.  Books of record are examined

10.  The Book of Life is checked one more time  (Why check THAT book again?  If these are already judged as wicked.)

11.  Death and Sheol was cast into the lake of fire (which means that anyone who IS dead - goes in with Sheol)

[8thdaypriest]

​8thday,

What follows is part of the reason I have a problem with this theology of yours.  In your counting of resurrections you get really picky and don't just use the context of Revelation.  You count those who were resurrected at Christ's resurrection as part of the resurrections spoken of in Revelation.  Well, if you're going to do that then you need to count Christ's return after He went to see His Father after His resurrection in your count of "comings"....   You don't.  You just count resurrections so that they fit your resurrection theology. 

If you count His "coming" after His resurrection then what John calls His 2nd coming in Revelation is actually His 3rd coming.  If you're going to be logically consistent that's what you're going to have to do.  At least that's how I see it.  To count that resurrection and not the subsequent return to earth is pretty shaky.

​Didn't say I counted the resurrection back when Jesus rose.  Said it COULD be counted.  Depends on where you start your count.  What I'm getting at, is that we should really look at everything - not simply taking Great Controversy as our last word.  Prove things from the Bible. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[joeb]

It could be counted?  But isn't this pretty much the foundation of your resurrection theory?  Seems to me if you don't count it you have some pretty serious holes in your theology.  Some of your arguments rely in it pretty heavily. 

[pnattmbtc]

If the FIRST resurrection includes ONLY the righteous, then how do we understand Daniel 12:2-3?   Multitudes are raised at the SAME EVENT.

Why would it need to be the same event?  I think one could find many examples where the same grammatical construct was used, and there was more than one event being discussed. 

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson said,

The 'White Throne' judgment was to determine degree of punishment for those not part of the first resurrection.

Rev  20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. See Luke 12:47-48 for the parable  regarding this judgment.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The order of events described :

1. The 1000 years expires

2.  Satan is loosed from his prison

3.  There are nations in the four corners of the earth

4.  Satan goes out to deceive them

5.  Gog and Magog (from the nations) comes up to attack the "camp of the saints and the beloved city"

6.  God defends His city.  Fire comes down and consumes them

7.  THEN John sees a Great White throne (So this judgment is AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle)

8.  John sees THE DEAD (they are not alive) standing before this Great throne (So they are in Sheol - the abode of the dead)

9.  Books of record are examined

10.  The Book of Life is checked one more time  (Why check THAT book again?  If these are already judged as wicked.)

11.  Death and Sheol was cast into the lake of fire (which means that anyone who IS dead - goes in with Sheol)

​I have no problem believing that the redeemed from the SC resurrection of the just, will be involved in the Great White Throne judgment.  I just disagree with the idea that they will decide just how LONG each person will suffer in the fire.   I think EGW said that "some were many days consuming, and as long as a any part remained all the sense of suffering continued" .  That seems horrible.  

I believe the QUESTION for that judgment is, "Should any of these people EVER be resurrected again to continue their lives?"  If the answer is "No" then, it is logical that God would destroy Sheol (the abode of the dead), because in doing so, all the DEAD will be forever destroyed along with Sheol. 

Another question to be answered is, "Have the Father, and His Son, done everything possible to win these persons?  There was nothing else that could have been done to reach them?"  When THIS question is answered, it provides closure for the redeemed.   

 

[8thdaypriest]

Here are the things I see in the Scriptures, that made me begin to look more deeply into the resurrections and "the rest of the dead". 

First just let me say that I agree - death is a state of unconsciousness.  Also I believe that the final plagues will wipe out ALL life on planet earth.  The scapegoat represented Satan, who will be imprisoned by circumstances to this uninhabited earth during the 7th millennium. 

1.  Those from the first resurrection become "priests of God and of Christ". 

I had to do a lot of study into the ROLE of the priests, to understand that they were mediators.  The officiated at the sacrifices - yes.  But they were the government (before Israel had a king).  And they taught the people the Law of Yahweh. 

So - if the redeemed will be priests of God and of Christ, then what will be their ROLE????  The sacrifice of animals is "obsolete".  So what's left.  Governing and teaching.  But WHO will they teach?  And who will they govern?  i think it will be all those people who come up as "the rest of the dead".   NIV  Revelation 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations-- (NIV).   The redeemed really WILL rule the nations.  When does that happen?  If all the lost from the 6000 years just come up to be executed, then when will the redeemed govern them?

Aaron and his sons were consecrated for 7 days.  They began to officiate as priests on the 8th day.  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years."  So - that would mean that the redeemed "priests of God and of Christ" will NOT BEGIN TO OFFICIATE as priests until "the 8th day".  And THAT is the same time that "the rest of the dead" are resurrected. 

2.  The issue of children, and unreached pagans, and mentally handicapped.  God is NOT arbitrary, or unjust.  It would be UNJUST to give these people a free pass into the forever kingdom, without them every having consented to be there.  That would be manipulation.  On the other hand, it would be UNJUST to leave them "dead like the beasts" simply because they never had an opportunity to CHOOSE Christ.  A resurrection at the 8th millennium of all such persons, would allow them a CHOICE, and it would satisfy God's justice. 

3.  Children playing on the "new earth" (Isaiah Cpt 11).  There is "no marriage" in the new earth.  So - so conception.  Where did these children come from?   If they were included with those resurrected at the SC, then their growth must have been frozen in time.  They are still children after a thousand years. ???   That doesn't make sense to me.  On the other hand, if they just slept through the 7th millennium and were resurrected at the start of the 8th millennium - then - no problem.

4.  There are many many prophecies of the return for Israel to the land.  I believe that the redeemed ARE the Israel of God.  But those prophecies also speak of "aliens", "Gentiles", "strangers",  "peoples", and "nations" living around Israel brought back to the land.  And these people are NOT coming up to attack.  Some of them actually say, "Let us go up, to the Mountain of the Lord."  "He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths."  (Isa. Cpt 2).   There are the "nations" invited to the Feast of Tabernacles in Zechariah 14.  Those prophecies DON'T FIT with the teaching that only those who are resurrected at the SC will live in the earth made new. 

Personally I think some these days are acting just like the Jews of Christ's day.  And Jesus said to them, "other sheep I have, which are NOT of this fold.  Them also I must bring."  

5.  So - let's say you're right, that only those who directly condemned Christ to crucifixion (I don't believe Jesus held the Roman soldiers responsible.)  will come up at the SC, just to see Christ coming in glory.  Then they will die AGAIN-by fire.  Then they will come up AGAIN, (1000 years later) to be judged and condemned AGAIN, and executed AGAIN.   I think that's OVERKILL.    WHAT?  They couldn't just come up after the millennium to see Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father??? 

I think the whole point is that Jesus was saying that all the wicked will come up on the SAME DAY. 

6.  If you believe that the commands associated with the Tabernacle were prophecies, then there are several prophecies which culminate in "the 8th day". 

Leviticus 22:27  A newborn animal [firstborn or not] was to remain with its mother for 7 days. On the 8th day, the animal would be acceptable as a sacrifice to the LORD (Exo. 22:30).  Was the LORD giving a prophecy?  When will we become acceptable for Jesus to present us to His Father? 

    Exodus 22:30   Firstborn males were to be given to the LORD on the 8th day - a reminder of the Israel’s deliverance when the firstborn of Egypt perished.       
Exodus 4:22  “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”     
     Every faithful believer is an Israelite.  We are collectively Israel - the firstborn (Heb. 12:23). Yeshua will present us to His Father - as a perfect offering - restored, cleansed and healed.   
    Question: When will Christ present us to His Father - a perfect offering?    Answer: On the 8th day.

The healed leper had to complete a 7 day cleansing, and could finally enter his house "on the 8th day".  [NOTE:  We are all lepers- spiritually speaking. ]

The quarantine for disease was 7 days.  On the 8th day, the person could rejoin the camp if he no longer showed signs of disease (other than leprosy). 

Newborn male children were circumcised on "the 8th day".  We know that we are circumcised by Christ.  Could it be this process will not be complete until the 8th millennium? 

The woman who gave birth to a male child was declared "clean" on the 8th day.  The woman of Rev. 12 is Israel.  She will finally be declared "cleansed" on the 8th day. 

The person who had touched a dead body, was to offer a sacrifice on the 3rd day, and the 7th day.  He was declared "clean" on the 8th day (which begins at sundown of day 7).

There is even a FEAST called "the Feast of the 8th Day".  It follows AFTER the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles.  What was THIS prophecy telling us?

Until I really began to look, I HAD NO IDEA all of these 8th day prophecies were part of God's commands to Israel.  They MUST mean something!!!!

Someone's going to scold me for putting so much in one post.  Sorry.

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

Why would it need to be the same event?  I think one could find many examples where the same grammatical construct was used, and there was more than one event being discussed. 

​

    Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 

This sounds like the SC to me. 

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . .  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

Looks like BOTH sheep and goats are gathered before Him - not just His sheep.  But maybe you're thinking that the ones HE curses are those who were still living to see him come.  Jesus tells them to "depart ... into everlasting fire".  So haven't at least THESE PEOPLE been judged and condemned?  Why wake them up again, just to kill them? 

The BEAST is thrown into the lake of fire at the SC.  Is "the BEAST" just one person (or angel).  NO!  It has 7 heads - and stretches way back through ancient history. 

The BEAST is not Satan.  He is not thrown into the LOF until after the millennium.  The BEAST is a system, that includes all of the people who support it.  That causes me to believe that it represents a LOT of people.  And all those people - are thrown into the "lake of fire" at the SC.  But that would mean a lot of them had to be resurrected - like those from Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the 8th Head. 

[8thdaypriest]

PS:  One a couple more 8's.    David was the 8th son of Jesse. 

King David ruled only Judah for 7 years.  He did not become King over united Israel, until the 8th year.  Just thought that was interesting. 

[pnattmbtc]

I have no problem believing that the redeemed from the SC resurrection of the just, will be involved in the Great White Throne judgment.  I just disagree with the idea that they will decide just how LONG each person will suffer in the fire.   I think EGW said that "some were many days consuming, and as long as a any part remained all the sense of suffering continued" .  That seems horrible. 

This would indeed be horrible if the fire were literal, but what if it's not?  Suppose the fire represents the discomfort one feels in the presence of Jesus, like those who called for mountains to fall on their head rather than see the lamb who died for them?

I think the judgment is a difficult subject to figure out, and I appreciate your efforts in making sense of it, particularly the emphasis that God will be fair to all, especially those who haven't had an opportunity to make a decision.  I don't claim to know how everything will work out, but I'll share what I've thought about it in terms of the judgment itself.

It seems to me like it will be like a job interview, where the interviewer (God) will go through all the events of one's life, patiently answering any questions the interviewee may have, being as gracious, kind, compassionate as always, as revealed by Christ.  The pain will come on the part of the interviewees in seeing opportunities lost, and seeing their life in true perspective.  The reason some will suffer more than others is that there is more to go through for some, and there is more light for some. 

[pnattmbtc]

​

    Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 

This sounds like the SC to me. 

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . .  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

Looks like BOTH sheep and goats are gathered before Him - not just His sheep.  But maybe you're thinking that the ones HE curses are those who were still living to see him come.  Jesus tells them to "depart ... into everlasting fire".  So haven't at least THESE PEOPLE been judged and condemned?  Why wake them up again, just to kill them? 

The BEAST is thrown into the lake of fire at the SC.  Is "the BEAST" just one person (or angel).  NO!  It has 7 heads - and stretches way back through ancient history. 

The BEAST is not Satan.  He is not thrown into the LOF until after the millennium.  The BEAST is a system, that includes all of the people who support it.  That causes me to believe that it represents a LOT of people.  And all those people - are thrown into the "lake of fire" at the SC.  But that would mean a lot of them had to be resurrected - like those from Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the 8th Head. 

​My thoughts:

1.Looks like BOTH sheep and goats are gathered before Him - not just His sheep.  But maybe you're thinking that the ones HE curses are those who were still living to see him come.  Jesus tells them to "depart ... into everlasting fire".  So haven't at least THESE PEOPLE been judged and condemned?  Why wake them up again, just to kill them? 

I agree with the idea here.  It seems to me that, regarding the SC, there are wicked who are aware of the issues, and the same elements of judgment one sees ascribed to those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium are present.  For such, I don't see the logic in raising them up again to kill them again.  However, there is the issue of all acknowledging that God has been just in all His doings, where every knee shall bow.  It's important that every sentient being acknowledge that God has been just as Jesus revealed Him to be as revealed by Jesus Christ.  So perhaps they will be raised a second time for that, but, in any case, it wouldn't be fair for God to punish them twice for the same thing, or cause them to suffer twice in the same way for the same thing, so I don't see how that could happen.

The Spirit of Prophecy says that those who longed for the coming of Christ will be raised sooner than others to see it happen, if I remember correctly.  I'm not mentioning this to prove anything, but just because it makes sense to me.  It makes sense to me that God will resurrect people, whether just or unjust, at a time where doing so would "fit", meaning that they would have an understanding of what is happening.  So for those alive during the events of the Second Coming, thinking especially of the wicked, it makes sense to me that their judgment could happen then (or at least part of it), as they would be aware of certain of the issues, but perhaps they could be raised at the end of the Millennium to answer any remaining questions they may have.

I think the judgment is often thought of as meeting punishment to those who deserve it, but I don't think this is its primary purpose.  I think the primary purpose is to vindicate God's character, and any suffering results is not desired or caused by God, but is simply the result of rejecting truth, and is proportional to the light rejected, not because of any imposed action on the part of God, but as cause and effect.