Who are "the rest of the dead" ?

[pnattmbtc]

In the vision, the priests and “the prince” offered sacrifices to Yahweh at this Temple (Ezek. 40:38-43; 42:13; 44:11; 46:4,12,13,15,20).  

I'm NOT SAYING that literal animal sacrifice will be resumed during the 8th millennium.  I believe the animal sacrifices symbolized (in this vision) the continued provision of blood and covering, for those raised at the 8th millennium. 

This seems like a stretch.  Surely to Ezekiel it meant actual sacrifices.  If you make something of the vision as significant as this symbolic, it seems like you could do so for any other part of the vision as well. 

[8thdaypriest]

​

​IF Ezekiel had been shown the Temple WITHOUT the sacrifices, the people who returned under Ezra/Nehemiah/Zerubabel  would have taken it to MEAN that the sacrifices were NO LONGER NECESSARY.  But it was NOT YET TIME.  Messiah had not yet been offered as the one true offering for sin. 

Ezekiel is the prophet to the captives in Babylon.  They are absolutely depressed because they don't see any way BACK.  Thru Ezekiel, the LORD gives encouragement to His people. 

When you read the prophecies of the return, and rebuilding, there are prophecies that WERE NOT FULFILLED when Israel returned from Babylon.  Those prophecies will ONLY be fulfilled when Israel redeemed is returned "to the land" after the 7th millennium.

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 "As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.

The LORD will gather His own sheep out of "all the countries".  So WHEN will this happen??  Is it not at the Second Coming? 

13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14 "I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 "I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD. 16 "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.

17 "As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats. 18 'Is it too slight a thing for you that you should feed in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? 19 'As for My flock, they must eat what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!'" 20 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them, "Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. (Eze 34:1 NAU)  21 "Because you push with side and with shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, 

WHEN will the LORD judge between "sheep and sheep" (sheep being those who have entered into covenant),  and "sheep and goats" ??  Is this not also at the Second Coming?  

22 therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 "Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd.

24 "And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the LORD have spoken. 25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 "I will make them and the places around My hill a blessing. And I will cause showers to come down in their season; they will be showers of blessing.

This is Isaiah Cpt 11.  All the "wild beasts" now tame and harmless.  This is the New Covenant promise. 

King David would be the symbolic representation of Messiah (the Son of David).  The "covenant of peace" that Messiah will make with His returned/rescued flock, is the same everlasting covenant we read about in Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31, and Hebrews 8.  That covenant is NOT finalized and fulfilled until redeemed Israel has been returned to dwell in their own land. 

27 "Also the tree of the field will yield its fruit and the earth will yield its increase, and they will be secure on their land. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bars of their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 "They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid.

29 "I will establish for them a renowned planting place, and they will not again be victims of famine in the land, and they will not endure the insults of the nations anymore. 30 "Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are My people," declares the Lord GOD.

Does anyone think that these promises of security, and peace, and safety were fulfilled WHEN the remnant of Judah was released to return to "the land" ???  NO! 

The religious authorities READ these prophecies and mistakenly applied them to their nation in 70AD.  They THOUGHT they were impregnable, because God had promised. 

31 "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.
 (NAU)

[8thdaypriest]

Ezekiel 36:23 "And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.

Does ANYONE think this happened between the return from Babylon and the destruction in 70AD?? 

24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

He is NOT just talking about gathering them back from Babylon.  He is talking about returning ALL of His redeemed Israel to "the land" promised to Abraham.

25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

How many times I read this promise, or heard it read WITHOUT considering the CONTEXT.  This is AFTER redeemed Israel is "returned to the land". 

29 "I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 "And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations.

31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 "Not for your sake do I do this," says the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!"

33 `Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 "The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 "So they will say,`This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.'

36 "Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it."

37 `Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock. 38 "Like a flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."'" (NKJ)

So - consider what this prophecy is saying.  The LORD recovers ALL of His own sheep - out of ALL the countries where they are scattered. 

THEN - He judges His sheep, and sorts out the wicked ones for destruction.

THEN - He returns His own sheep to the "land promised".

THEN - His sheep rebuild and repair, and the land responds to them, and the wild animals are peaceful, and they are absolutely safe, and secure.

THEN - He will increase the number of His sheep.  "I will increase their men like a flock."

Where will this "increase" come from?????  Will they not come from "the nations which are LEFT all around you" ??  The people of those nations will KNOW that the LORD has done all of this.  Personally - I think this is where Isa. cpt 2 and Micah cpt 4 come in, where people "go up to the House of the God of Jacob", to "learn His ways".   

 

[8thdaypriest]

EZEKIEL 37

This chapter describes the resurrection of "the whole house of Israel" 37:11. 

Ezekiel 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (NKJ)

Western evangelicals along with the rabbis of the current nation of Israel, have miss-applied this prophecy, to the current "return" of Jews to the nation now known as Israel, and her "resurrection" as if from "the dead".    I don't think it FITS, because 80% of Jews living today in the nation known as Israel, are SECULAR.  They don't even believe in God, much less in this prophecy.   

This prophecy is talking about redeemed Israel - those of faith - who walk by faith, who have (since His death) believed in Jesus as the Christ. 

So - in this prophecy - is "your own land" and "the land of Israel" and "the land promised" - the WHOLE WORLD ??  It doesn't sound like this is the case.  The "nations" have their own lands, which are separate from the "land of Israel". 

Cont:

Ezekiel 37:21 "Then say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 "They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them.

Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Eze 37:21 NKJ)

We see that Israel is gathered and brought to "the land given to Jacob My servant".    Again, we see the promise of David as King forever.   And here we read the promise that "My sanctuary" and "My tabernacle" will be "in their midst forevermore". 

THEN Chapter 28 and 29 - we have the Gog/Magog Battle and clean-up.   If we pair Ezekiel with Revelation, we can only conclude that all of this takes place AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. 

THEN Chapters 40 thru 44 - the New City and the New Temple. 

The CONTEXT is "the land" AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium.  We cannot just remove the prophecy of the Temple from the entire prophecy of resurrection, gathering, and return to "the land".   

THAT IS WHY I believe the sacrifices at this Temple are symbolic - NOT literal animal sacrifices. 

There are many Messianic and Hebrew Roots teachers who believe that animal sacrifices will literally be offered at the Millennium Temple under Messiah.  I do NOT agree with them.   I do not believe that a river of water, will literally flow from the MHP of Ezekiel's Temple.  I believe the "river" represents the spirit of God.  HE is the one who will bring everything back to life. 

I do not believe that God will literally cause the bones of His redeemed, to come up out of the ground, and then literally put muscle and sinew back on those bones.   This is where the idea came from that God must use the actual bones, so people must not be cremated.   This is symbolic!!  And so are the sacrifices!!

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel,

There is an interesting article on the subject comparing Revelation 19-21 with Ezekiel 38 and 39 written by Adventist Eugene Prewitt.

It can be found at:

http://www.bibledoc.org/revelation-class/rev-20-and-old-testament-unfulfilled-prophecies-2/

 

Part of the confusion between these books may be  explained by Jer18:9

" And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10  If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

 

 

 

 

​The article you sited Jackson, basically says that the prophecy of Ezekiel was only what might have been, if Judah had returned to the LORD with all her heart. 

QUOTE:  "A third group, that includes most Adventist teachers during the last few decades, view these prophecies as conditional prophecies that, due to the failure of the Jews, never will be fulfilled in any real sense."

So - I am to believe that the LORD gave half Ezekiel's visions as simply "conditional promises".  Judah did not fulfill the "conditions" therefore the promise will not be fulfilled by the LORD.

Can you point to any other vision/prophecy that was only a "what might have been"? 

How sad, to read all those "promises" of Scripture, (not just Ezekiel's vision) realizing that Israel, Judah (nor we ourselves) fulfill the "conditions".   Oh - but - that's right - JESUS FULFILLED THOSE CONDITIONS - for all of those who will believe in Him.  Therefore those "promises" CAN be fulfilled for the redeemed - who WILL BE Israel. 

There are 12 gates into the New Jerusalem.  Every one has the name of one tribe over it.  There is no gate labeled, "Gentile believers enter here."   You must be an Israelite to have a home in THAT City. 

Even Mrs. White wrote, "The Israel of God stands with faces lifted up" - describing those delivered at the Second Coming. 

Ezekiel's visions are for redeemed "Israel" - (spiritual Israel) not simply for the remnant of ancient Judea.

Isaiah 55:11 "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

The LORD said it WILL happen.  The only question is:  WHEN?

I believe the visions of Ezekiel FIT BETTER with the return of redeemed Israel to the land, from the Father's House where they have spent 1000 years preparing to serve as "priests of God and of Christ" to govern and educate "the rest of the dead". 

[pnattmbtc]

Isaiah 55:11 "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

The LORD said it WILL happen.  The only question is:  WHEN?

Not every prophecy is conditional.   The Jer. 18 passage jackson cited is an example of the principle.  It may not just a question of when, but if.

[pnattmbtc]

Now - Is it just and fair and worthy of our God, to leave any human beings - "like the beasts" ?  Did He not die for THOSE human beings?  Does He not want to reach them?  Then cannot the God of all things design His plan, so that those folks can be reached? 

The class that EGW speaks as being "like the beasts" is speaking to those with a mental problem such that they cannot respond to the Gospel..  Our minds (which correspond to who were are) are not changed upon the resurrection.  For such to respond to the Gospel, God would have to create, in effect, a whole new person.

Did you respond to the point about Christ's having to continue His mediation?  That is, if there are people raised at the 2nd resurrection who are sinning, yet will give their hearts to the Lord, how do you deal with the fact that mediation has already stopped?

 

[8thdaypriest]

The class that EGW speaks as being "like the beasts" is speaking to those with a mental problem such that they cannot respond to the Gospel..  Our minds (which correspond to who were are) are not changed upon the resurrection.  For such to respond to the Gospel, God would have to create, in effect, a whole new person.

Did you respond to the point about Christ's having to continue His mediation?  That is, if there are people raised at the 2nd resurrection who are sinning, yet will give their hearts to the Lord, how do you deal with the fact that mediation has already stopped?

 

​What makes you think that "mediation has already stopped" ?

Let's say that I was born blind.  When I am resurrected, will I not receive a new WHOLE spiritual body - such that I will be able to "see" ?  It that is so for eyes, then why not for brains?  A mentally disabled person, is just like a child, perhaps even an infant in the case of severe retardation.  Will not children be resurrected?  (I say at the 8th day.  You say at the Second Coming.)  So then why would the mentally handicapped be raised, just as children are? 

Was not ADAM a fully grown man when he first breathed?   He had - as yet - learned nothing.  I see no problem resurrecting a grown man who had mental disabilities in this life. 

[8thdaypriest]

Jeremiah 18:  The LORD basically says, "I'm in charge."  I am preparing a disaster for you.  (That would be the Babylonians.) 

Yet - Daniel, (& his 3 friends) Ezekiel, Mordecai, Zerubbabel, Esther, - how many more........  remained faithful.  Therefore the promises WILL be fulfilled FOR THEM. 

The foolish wicked were "broken off" so that "you" Gentile believers, might be grafted IN - to Israel.  

ALL of God's Israel was NOT "cut off" or destroyed forever.  The faithful REMAINED citizens of God's Israel.  And believers today, who continue and walk in faith are "grafted in" TO ISRAEL. 

Israel has ALWAYS BEEN "those of faith".  ONLY those of faith are children of Abraham (Gal. 3). 

[pnattmbtc]

Let's say that I was born blind.  When I am resurrected, will I not receive a new WHOLE spiritual body - such that I will be able to "see" ?  It that is so for eyes, then why not for brains?

The problem is the mind.  We are our minds.  The mind is not merely a physical thing.  In encapsulates everything about us.  You could change our our heart, or leg, or eye, and it would change who we are (other than the impact of use of the object), but you cannot swap out our minds without changing us.  God would have to create a whole different person from scratch. 

[pnattmbtc]

The point of the Jeremiah 18 passage is that prophecy is conditional.  They were complaining that if the Lord had prophesied against them, there was nothing they could do; they were doomed.  The Lord rebutted that argument by saying that He could adjust what He did based on what they did.

There are many examples of conditional prophecies in Scripture.

[pnattmbtc]

You asked what makes me think mediation will have stopped.  Daniel 8;14.  Being an SDA.  I would think you must know why I would think the mediation would stop.

By your question I infer that you think mediation will continue after the Second Coming?

[8thdaypriest]

You asked what makes me think mediation will have stopped.  Daniel 8;14.  Being an SDA.  I would think you must know why I would think the mediation would stop.

By your question I infer that you think mediation will continue after the Second Coming?

​Yes - I believe the mediation of Christ WILL continue, AFTER the SC, for those who lived and died in ignorance.  Probation - for THEM - does not close at the SC.  That is the message of Ezekiel's Temple, and Zechariah's prophecy were in the "nations" are invited to the Feast of Tabernacles. 

The judgments at the SC will wipe out the wicked.  (Those who died in ignorance are NOT wicked.)  Jesus will THEN train and prepare His priesthood during the 1000 years.  THEN - that priesthood will govern and educate all of those who died in ignorance.  This is WHEN the redeemed will "rule the nations". 

I do NOT believe that an investigative judgment began in Heaven back in 1844.   Jesus said, "I know my sheep.  They hear me."  He doesn't need to "investigate" anything.  Certainly not for 175+ years. 

I believe that Christ will go before the "court" of Daniel 7, ON THE DAY that He returns in glory.  Anciently the Day of Atonement was ONE DAY.  The high priest entered the MHP (actually 3 times) and came out, ON THAT DAY to bless the waiting Israelites. 

Passover was ONE DAY.  Feast of Firstfruits was ONE DAY.  Pentecost was ONE DAY.  Why would the Day of Atonement NOT be ONE DAY????   Even Mrs. White said that the "Fall feasts will be fulfilled in like manner" with the Spring Feasts.  If they ARE "fulfilled in like manner" - THEN - Day of Atonement will be ONE DAY. 

The judgment that "sits" - the one that takes away Satan's dominion, and gives it to "the saints of the most high" - is the SAME COURT - the Daniel 7 Court, where Christ enters, while the little horn is speaking blasphemies on the earth.  The "saints" are terribly persecuted by the little horn for 1260 days, time-times-part, leading up to the DAY that Court sits.    That has not happened yet. 

[pnattmbtc]

Thank you for explaining your position.  We're so far apart, I wouldn't know where to start, so I think I'll just watch, ask questions, and make comments when I think can do so in a helpful way (helpful meaning to promote discussion, clarify ideas, etc.)

 

I would like to ask a clarifying question regarding conditional prophecies.  Do you believe that there are conditional prophecies in Scripture? (I'm asking because not all do, and I was unsure  what your position is based on what you have written).

Edited June 10, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[8thdaypriest]

I think the prophecy of Jonah - destruction for Nineveh - is a good example of a "conditional prophecy".   The conditional part (if you repent) was implied.

Just about ALL the prophecies of blessing are conditional.  Israel would receive the blessing IF she obeyed the LORD.  She would receive the curse prophecy IF she did not obey the LORD. 

So yes.  I believe there ARE some conditional prophecies in the Bible. 

[8thdaypriest]

THE FIRST DEATH - AND THE SECOND

Human beings can die the "first death" more than once.  Many were resurrected either by Jesus or by His disciples.  I refer to the "first death" as the first TYPE of death - physical death.

Humans can die the "second death" only once - because it is forever death.  There is no resurrection from the "second" TYPE of death - spirit death. 

Those who are banished to the "lake of fire" at the Second Coming judgment, will NOT come up again - forever.

Regarding those who "crucified Him" :  I DON'T BELIEVE the prophecy concerning those who will "see Him" coming in glory, applies ONLY to those who literally nailed Him to that cross.  All those who "crucify the LORD again" (Hebrews 6:6), are included in that prophecy.  All of those who have HEARD the truth, and rejected Him, will also face judgment at the glorious return. 

The soldiers who were following orders, were forgiven for that act.  

[JoeMo]

Regarding those who "crucified Him" :  I DON'T BELIEVE the prophecy concerning those who will "see Him" coming in glory, applies ONLY to those who literally nailed Him to that cross.  All those who "crucify the LORD again" (Hebrews 6:6), are included in that prophecy.  All of those who have HEARD the truth, and rejected Him, will also face judgment at the glorious return. 

​Hi Rachel,

I really like your insight in this thread.  I have one tiny pushback on your last post.  When I read Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-30 in context with the rest of Hebrews, I don't see these as warnings for what happens to you if you still have some sin problems after accepting the Lord.  I see them as warnings to the Hebrews about thinking that Jesus didn't do a good enough job when He offered His life and blood on our behalf to reconcile us to God; so they had to keep sacrificing rams and bulls to obtain forgiveness.  It's equivalent to Gal.5:2-4:

" Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

[8thdaypriest]

​Hi Rachel,

I really like your insight in this thread.  I have one tiny pushback on your last post.  When I read Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-30 in context with the rest of Hebrews, I don't see these as warnings for what happens to you if you still have some sin problems after accepting the Lord.  I see them as warnings to the Hebrews about thinking that Jesus didn't do a good enough job when He offered His life and blood on our behalf to reconcile us to God; so they had to keep sacrificing rams and bulls to obtain forgiveness.  It's equivalent to Gal.5:2-4:

" Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

​Joe,

I guess it all depends on the definition of "falling away". 

Hebrews 6:4 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

So - this describes someone who has been converted, who knows the power of the Holy Spirit, and who also knows the Law of God.  

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

These are people who have LOST the Holy Spirit.  They have resisted the LORD until He withdraws from them.  Their probation is therefore CLOSED.  But these WERE believers.  They have fallen soooooo far, that they now persecute the people of God.  They MOCK belief in Jesus.  Jesus is "crucified" in the person of His faithful servants.

7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NAU)

When is the "ground" burned?  Is it not at the Second Coming?  These people who turned AWAY from Christ, will be burned up with the "earth" at the Second Coming.  Which is WHY I'm saying that it will not be just the council members who went to Pilot requesting that Jesus be crucified. 

I am NOT saying that each believer MUST BE PERFECT at the SC, in order to be saved.  Not at all !!!

[JoeMo]

I believe that Biblical passages can have more than one valid interpretation.  I think that, while your interpretation is valid, there is an underlying "fear factor" in it that could cause some people who still have sin problems after they have come to the Lord to doubt their salvation and just give up.  I agree with you that these verses do not say every believer must be perfect at the SC; but we both know people who think otherwise.  Fear is an effective motivator; but I think God would prefer love and trust to motivate us to overcoming rather than fear leading us to self-condemnation and hopelessness.  Until I read these verses as I described in my previous post, I shuddered with fear and despair on the thought of my potentially lost salvation every time I read Hebrews chapters 6 and 10.  Now, I find those verses to be an encouragement to firmly believe that Jesus did a good enough job on the cross to save even a wretch like me.

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus did not BECOME a priest UNTIL after He rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven.  Right?  Or do you believe that He was high priest from the moment that Adam sinned? 

Before Jesus DIED as 'the one true offering" - there was NO BLOOD, with which to anoint the Heavenly "true tabernacle".  How then were the sins of those who died before Christ, transferred to the Heavenly Tabernacle?   Did they just pile up somewhere, in a sins database - waiting for the blood of Christ to transfer them to the Heavenly Tabernacle ? 

Personally, I see the blood of the sacrifice as declaring BELIEF in God and His promise of forgiveness.  I think it's the BELIEF that is registered in Heaven - NOT the specific sin. 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Jackson said:

"In addition, your scenario  makes necessary a second cleansing of the sanctuary after the 1000 years ."

There is NOT an end to sin at the second coming.  If it was, there would be no rebellion and great day of God Almighty at the beginning of the 8th millennium. If the sanctuary had been cleansed at the SC, it would need to be cleansed again at the end of the millennium anyways. 

[LifeHiscost]

Personally, I see the blood of the sacrifice as declaring BELIEF in God and His promise of forgiveness.  I think it's the BELIEF that is registered in Heaven - NOT the specific sin. 

 

Since at the confession of our personal sin and Jesus' promise to cleanse us from that sin at that time, your assessment would seem to be absolutely correct. OTOH perhaps there is a metaphorical sense meant to typify or convey the reality of the final disposition of the universal lack.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.....1 John 1

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[LifeHiscost]

"Thy way O Lord is in the Sanctuary" said David. You look to the earthly sanctuary to understand Jesus' ministration as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.The confessed sins of believers are transferred through the blood of the victim to the sanctuary. Confessed sins are not blotted out when they are forgiven, but rather "registered" in the sanctuary. They are blotted out only when the sanctuary is cleansed on the day of atonement. and the sins are put on Satan the scapegoat.

Peter addresses this point about when the blotting out of sins occurs:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Of course in OT times the blood of animals was insufficient to forgive sins, but the believers sincere repentance and his/her offering of a animal substitute is registered as a saving faith and will be remembered when the true sacrifice, Jesus, offers His blood in the heavenly sanctuary.

Now your statement that it is beliefs  rather than sins that are registered in the heavenly sanctuary is not scriptual ,for if that were the case the Heavenly Sanctuary need not be cleansed. But the heavenly Sanctuary in to be cleansed.

Heb  9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The scapegoat is not to be ladden with sanctuary "beliefs" but with confessed sins cleansed from the sanctuary.

But you still have not addressed the Bible's statement (Rev 20:6) that only the blessed are raised at the first resurrection, which is in direct contradiction to your belief that the wicked , too are raised at the first resurrection. Are you willing to concede that you are in error on this point?

 

I appreciated that rundown. What do you make of this biblical tidbit? Would it not be metaphorical?

Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.
¹⁹ He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all our sins
Into the depths of the sea.
²⁰ You will give truth to Jacob
And mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers
From days of old.....Micah 7

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

 

But you still have not addressed the Bible's statement (Rev 20:6) that only the blessed are raised at the first resurrection, which is in direct contradiction to your belief that the wicked , too are raised at the first resurrection. Are you willing to concede that you are in error on this point?

 

STOP IT Jackson!  This is NOT A CONTEST !!!  

When someone raises a question, I do not (most of the time) have an immediate answer.  I need to think about it, and pray about it. 

You just said, "ONLY THE BLESSED are raised at the first resurrection.  But I know that you believe those who crucified Christ will also be raised in a "special resurrection".   So you might need to reconsider the word "only".  

I just believe that FAR MORE THAN the 68 men from a council at Jerusalem, "crucified Him". 

NIV  Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

MULTITUDES will awake from their sleep in the dust.  "Some" are raised to everlasting life.  AND "others" are raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".  No one recovers from "everlasting contempt" - so the end of these people is sealed.  They will go to the "lake of fire".  I personally see no point in raising them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN. 

We all remember what Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" - the way to life.  That would make me think that those raised to everlasting life, will be the minority from the "multitudes" that are raised on that day. 

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, Ii, as you assert, those who are banished to the lake of Fire at the Second Coming do not rise up again, then they must have been part of the first resurrection. Buty ou agree that they are the wicked ,and only the blessed have part of the first resurrection.

How do you explain your departure from scripture on this point?

 Rev 20:6         Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 

You also stated that the "uniformed and uncapable" will not be judged at the final atonement preceding Christ's Second coming but will be given another chance to be converted after the 1000 years.-  But again, scripture lists only two classes of people, the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:33)and the righteous and the wicked (Rev22:11)

 In addition, your scenario  makes necessary a second cleansing of the sanctuary after the 1000 years . I mentioned this in an earlier post, but I do not think you adressed it. I will restate it.

The Bible makes no mention of a separate trial and judgment of the uninformed at some future date after the 1000 years. For there to be such a judgment, Christ would have to again become a mediating priest, cleanse the temple from new sins, put newly confessed sins on the scapegoat again , and this time kill the scapegoat rather than send if off into the wilderness. Can you provide scripture for such doings?

Those who are resurrected to continue their physical lives at the 8th millennium - are NOT RAISED to "be given another chance to be converted".  They NEVER had a first chance.  They NEVER heard (understood) the gospel.  The missionaries NEVER reached them.  They lived in a time, or in a place where the God of the Bible was UNKNOWN.  They may have died as a  young child, or may have been mentally incapable of understanding or choice. 

In order to be given eternal life, one MUST CHOOSE.  But some could not choose.