Who are "the rest of the dead" ?

[8thdaypriest]

But  none of the wicked  go into the Lake of Fire until after the White Throne Judgment. At the SC only the beast and the False Prophet go into the Lake of Fire. The rest are killed by the "sword of His mouth"

Rev 19:20       And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.   19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Satan goes into the lake of Fire  after the 1000 years but before the White Throne judgment ( See Rev 20:10)

The wicked; those whose names are not in the book of life, are cast into the lake of fire after the white throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years.(See Rev 20:15)

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Jackson,

Who do you include in THE BEAST?  Just one entity or human being.  I don't think so.   THE BEAST is Satan's system - his continuing attempt at world domination.  THE BEAST has 7 heads and 10 Kings.  The Beast has "armies".  THE BEAST includes everyone who knowing persecuted the people of God.   

Back in John's day, John was told that one head "is" and "the other" has not yet come.   At the SC - the ENTIRE BEAST with its armies and its kings, is thrown into "the lake of fire" - consumed forever. 

I think it's possible that the "lake of fire" into which THE BEAST is thrown at the SC, is the earth - "burned up".  It is a way of saying that the BEAST SYSTEM is consumed and destroyed forever. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel I agree that "concede was not the best choice of words on my part, but I meant it in the sense that I wanted to know why you seemed to have avoided that question, as I had asked it of you before. It is frustrating, as you well know, when someone goes merrily on their way in spite of Bbiblical eviedence that contradicts their merry way. i usually respond to your posts because you are open minded and willing to admit the validity of an opposing scripture.

When Daniel says "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" i take the "others" to mean those who pierced Him for the Bible allows for that exception, but it does not allow for a doctrine that contradicts the scripture that says only the blessed and holy have part in the first resurrection.

Going on my "merry way", is your way of saying that I disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of a passage of Scripture. 

Jackson, we need to find more courteous ways of simply saying, "I disagree with your interpretation".   You can say WHY you disagree with my interpretation.  But the Scripture passages you cite as "proofs" are STILL mostly subject to INTERPRETATION. 

Saying that the other person is "denying Scripture" or "not using Scripture", is NOT A GOOD argument.  It is a personal slur. 

Everyone wants absolute certainty.  Most Adventists feel comfortable, thinking they have that certainty of interpretation because they have Ellen White.  I used to feel that certainty also.  But I came to question Mrs. White's "gift" for many reasons.  That left me much less certain, but it also left open the possibility of greater or wider understandings. 

Many times, on this forum, when I've said everything I have to say on a topic, and I'm just repeating myself - I have dropped out of a discussion.  It becomes obvious that no other "proofs" can be shared, or arguments put forward at that point in time.  Maybe I just need more time for study.  Maybe the other person will come up with different "proofs".   

The folks reading our arguments must judge for themselves which arguments they find stronger.  We cannot force them into a viewpoint or doctrine. 

You feel you must counter my arguments with traditional Adventist interpretation.  THAT's JUST FINE.  I wouldn't expect anything less.  But don't imply that I'm "going on my merry (ignorant) way" when I disagree with you. 

[8thdaypriest]

But  none of the wicked  go into the Lake of Fire until after the White Throne Judgment. At the SC only the beast and the False Prophet go into the Lake of Fire. The rest are killed by the "sword of His mouth"

Satan goes into the lake of Fire  after the 1000 years but before the White Throne judgment ( See Rev 20:10)

The wicked; those whose names are not in the book of life, are cast into the lake of fire after the white throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years.(See Rev 20:15)

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Ever noticed that the Gog/Magog Battle (at which Satan is thrown into the "lake of fire") takes place BEFORE the "Great White Throne" judgment ? 

Adventists have EQUATED the fire of the Gog/Magog Battle WITH "the lake of fire", but Gog/Magog takes place BEFORE the White Throne judgment, and "the dead" are NOT THROWN into the "lake of fire" until the conclusion of that Judgment.  AND they are "dead" - not alive - when they are thrown in. 

NO - I don't believe in the conscious state of the dead.  I believe that God will destroy His own retained memory of those individuals.  God retains the essence (spirit) of a person, when they die.  That essence (spirit) is what God uses to resurrect a person with mind and memory intact.  It is THAT ESSENCE which will be destroyed in "the lake of fire".  Notice that the "dead" are NOT "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire. 

[8thdaypriest]

"Thy way O Lord is in the Sanctuary" said David. You look to the earthly sanctuary to understand Jesus' ministration as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.The confessed sins of believers are transferred through the blood of the victim to the sanctuary. Confessed sins are not blotted out when they are forgiven, but rather "registered" in the sanctuary. They are blotted out only when the sanctuary is cleansed on the day of atonement. and the sins are put on Satan the scapegoat.

Peter addresses this point about when the blotting out of sins occurs:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Of course in OT times the blood of animals was insufficient to forgive sins, but the believer's sincere repentance and his/her offering of a animal substitute is registered as a saving faith and will be remembered when the true sacrifice, Jesus, offers His blood in the heavenly sanctuary.

Now your statement that it is "beliefs"  rather than sins that are registered in the heavenly sanctuary is not scriptual ,for if that were the case the Heavenly Sanctuary need not be cleansed. But the heavenly Sanctuary in to be cleansed.

Heb  9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The scapegoat is not to be ladden with sanctuary "beliefs" but with confessed sins cleansed from the sanctuary.

But you still have not addressed the Bible's statement (Rev 20:6) that only the blessed are raised at the first resurrection, which is in direct contradiction to your belief that the wicked , too are raised at the first resurrection. Are you willing to concede that you are in error on this point?

 

Let me paste a post I made on another thread.  It addresses my thoughts on the Tabernacle prophecy.

WHAT JESUS DID - BY PERFECTLY OBEYING THE LAW OF HIS FATHER (aside from the revelations).

By His perfect obedience - "obedient unto death striving against sin" - Christ fulfilled the TERMS of the Covenant between God and Israel,  and the terms of the Covenant between God and man. 

Having thus fulfilled the TERMS, Christ was entitled to the promised rewards - the "land", "dominion", eternal life. 

THIS is what the judgment is ABOUT.  The judgment is NOT ABOUT us!!  It is about Jesus Christ.  Did HE fulfill the terms perfectly?  If the answer is YES, then Christ can be awarded "dominion" of earth.  With the "dominion" Christ is legally entitled to displace Satan as "ruler of this world".  He is also entitled to decide which humans He will have within His dominion, and which He will not have.  Hence - "all judgment is given to the Son". 

God the Father - in the person of His Son - withheld judgment - UNTIL all things could be revealed.  THEN the responsibility (guilt) for "sin" was SHOWN clearly to have begun in Satan's mind.   And it was REVEALED that Satan would destroy God Himself, rather than humble himself. 

God Himself - in the person of His Son - carried the blame for sin.  Sin itself - ALL SIN - was put on to Christ.  He "became sin".  The Father "made Him to BE SIN.  "The Lord has laid on Him, the transgression of us all."   I'm saying ALL SIN - past/present/future was put onto Jesus Christ - 2000 years ago.   That is where sin STILL IS.  It is ON HIM.  He will carry SIN - UNTIL - the judgment.  When the judgment sits - Jesus will be given authority to displace Satan as ruler of earth BECAUSE Satan has been fully REVEALED as the prime and root cause of sin.   In the Tabernacle prophecy the "sins" are transferred FROM the Tabernacle veil (Jesus), TO the scapegoat.   THAT is a representation - in symbols - of what happens at the judgment.  

It's NOT the whole Tabernacle that not "soiled".  It's Jesus.  He is the stained "veil". 

The judgment of Daniel 7, is NOT ABOUT my individual sins, or yours.  It's ABOUT Jesus. 

[8thdaypriest]

Here is the second part of the post.

The TRUTH about Satan's evil mind was REVEALED at the cross, to heavenly intelligences.  The truth was KNOWN - waaaaay back then.  So WHY did the judgment not take place immediately after Jesus was raised and then ascended to Heaven????  THAT's the question.  WHY wait sooooooo long to oust Satan, and give "dominion" of earth to Jesus?   The angels were READY 2000 years ago. 

There are more reasons - I'm sure - than we can understand from our present perspective. 

Humans NEEDED to EXPERIENCE the rule of Satan.  They NEEDED to feel the pain of Pharoah - so they would KNOW for all eternity - that he is a liar and a cruel taskmaster.  The intelligences of other dimensions NEEDED to WITNESS the pain and destruction. 

All heavenly intelligences were FORCED to CHOOSE between Christ and Satan.  Some may not have fully and finally chosen Christ UNTIL they saw for themselves, what Satan did to Him. 

Humans must also CHOOSE a side.  In order to CHOOSE a side, one must clearly SEE both sides.  One must observe the two options.  Hence - Satan must be left alive and active UNTIL every sentient being has SEEN and then CHOSEN "whom they will serve". 

The REASON why Satan is left alive, and is then released for a short time AFTER the judgment sits, is BECAUSE there are humans who have NOT YET SEEN the two sides clearly.  They are people who were never reached with the truth of God's side.  They are people who COULD not CHOOSE a side, because they died as children, or were mentally unable.  

NOW - is it fair that these people are raised to continue their lives in a kingdom under Christ's direct rulership - where Satan is only a deceiver (not a ruler)?   Is this not what we see in Israel - delivered from Egypt, and now ruled by the LORD - visible in the glorious pillar of cloud ?  They were taught by Moses, Aaron, and the priests.  

Was it unfair of the LORD to favor a people in this way - to give them such an advantage?  Did His direct and open dealing with Israel in this way, result in most of these people crossing into the "promised land" of His eternal kingdom.  No!    Most of them rebelled - and were consumed by the wilderness. 

I believe the coming 8th Day will be just like the government of Yahweh during the wilderness (except that animal blood will not be offered).  Priests will govern and teach the Law.  I think probably MOST from "the nations" will rebel against Him during The 8th Day - coming up as the great army of Gog/Magog.  Most - but NOT ALL.  He will save a few - just as he did from Israel in the wilderness.   

Most will rebel - just like the 250 princes - who thought they could better govern Israel.  They were consumed by "fire" that flashed from the cloud.  And the army of Gog/Magog will be consumed by "the fire" of God, poured out from Heaven. 

[8thdaypriest]

Adventists have long taught that "the latter rain" will be poured out in the very last days, to bring the final harvest to ripeness.  I don't really disagree with that.  

But Adventists TIE that outpouring to the final forgiveness of sins in the Heavenly Sanctuary.  If one receives the "later rain" then his/her sins have been "blotted out".  The "refreshing" is the SIGN that the Investigative Judgment is nearing completion, and there will be no further forgiveness.  That part - I do NOT agree with. 

ASV  Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,  so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;" 

The "refreshing" which follows belief, repentance and baptism, comes as the Holy Spirit is poured upon the individual.  This began at Pentecost - with the outpouring of the the Spirit of Christ.  This continues today as individual sins are "blotted out" (covered) WHEN that person is forgiven, washed, cleansed. 

Each person experiences that "refreshing' WHEN he/she is converted and "filled" with the Spirit of Christ. 

ASV  Acts 2:38 "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him."

Peter quoted Joel 2, "In the latter days, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh: "  Sons and daughters will prophesy.      THAT is what happened AT PENTECOST.   That is WHEN Jesus came down as "the latter rain". 

KJV  Hosea 6:3  "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."

When the first disciples experienced the outpouring of the Spirit, they assumed it WAS the "last days". 

[8thdaypriest]

THE HEAVENLY DAY OF ATONEMENT

It is true, that Jesus will never again face the heavenly "court" (Daniel 7:9-10).  He will face that court only once - for all time. 

But - can no other sins be forgiven AFTER Jesus appears before that "court" ? 

Jesus faces the Heavenly Court, while on the earth the "little horn" speaks blasphemy and severely persecutes the people of God.    That Judgment (Court) decides something.  What does it decide??  Does it decide who's sins are forgiven??  I don't get that from the text of Daniel.  

That Court decides WHETHER Jesus has authority to forgive sins, and to condemn.    When Jesus receives "dominion" - He receives authority - over the entire world.  He has authority to "judge". 

WHEN that Court sits, Jesus will already have chosen many for His eternal Kingdom, and also identified many to be "cut off" from His people.  He has chosen, or rejected - based upon His subjects repentance, and faithfulness.  But, does the Court's decree (giving dominion to Christ) mean that He can choose no others?  

Jackson has quoted  Rev 22:11.  "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."   22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Jackson believes this verse applies to every person who has ever lived. 

First:  I would point out that young children, the mentally handicapped, and the ignorant ARE NOT "filthy" or "unjust".  They ARE NOT "righteous" or "holy" either.  So I would apply this prophecy only to those who ARE "unjust" or "filthy" or "righteous" or "holy" (in other words informed).  "EVERY MAN" who fits one of these descriptions will receive his "reward" WHEN Jesus comes in glory.

Second:  On the Day of Atonement ONLY Israel was judged (in the person of the High Priest).  The nations - who were ignorant of Yahweh and His Law - were NOT judged on Yom Kippur.   So I would interpret the "every man" to be "every Israelite".   Israel was to be "a kingdom of priests".   It is the future priesthood that is "judged" on the Day of Atonement.  

To apply the "every man" to mean every man who has ever lived - just doesn't fit the types.