Minimum Wages: Oh, When Will They Ever Learn?

[bonnie]

I would expect that of you. Maybe you could provide some statements that reflect what you posted.  Along with reading the dictionary there is another book that speaks directly to making false or misleading statements. You should try reading it

[Geoarrge]

I don't understand why people want to devalue the dollar from 1/7 of an unskilled work-hour to 1/15 or whatever.

[joeb]

To counter the minimum wage increase either the business must raise prices for their goods or services, or, absorb the increase by reducing costs, which might mean lower staffing, if possible. Now, if a CEO is making a modest $1,000,000 per year, which is only $83,333 per month, how can he/she possibly make ends meet? So, having CEO's voluntarily reducing their salaries and boosting their lower-end employees wages to a living, single-parent wage would be out of the question.

That's why Jesus taught that it will be quite difficult for rich people to enter his Kingdom, because they are too greedy to care about the very people, their employees with no degrees, who are making them rich.

Sadly, franchisees are victims of blood-thirsty corporations making it difficult for them to turn a profit even with minimum wage employees.

​How many small  businesses have CEO's making a million dollars a year?  NONE.  Your local restaurant run by a family has no one making a million a year.  Same with the mom and pop stores.  Anything local will never have anyone making a million a year, and these small businesses do the majority of the job creation in the US. 

You make it sound like there isn't a business in the US that doesn't have a CEO making obscene amounts of money.  The majority of businesses do not. 

[Aliensanctuary]

Sadly, franchisees are victims of blood-thirsty corporations...

I used $1M as a random example for larger corporations. Of course, franchisees probably do not have that kind of income, only the CEO's of the corporations selling the franchises.  

[Bravus]

If the CEO makes $400,000 and a minimum wage worker makes $20,000 a year, that's still a 20x multiplier.

I'd be interested to see evidence that the CEO brings 20x the value to the company.

[Aliensanctuary]

$400K per year works out to $33,333 per month before taxes. $100K per year works out to $8,333 per month. 

Like someone else said, when the lower wage employees get raises, they spend it and it helps improve the economy. When the highest paid management receive even higher salaries, it has little effect on the economy because they stash all the money they don't need, or can't spend fast enough, in banks.

I'd be interested to see evidence that the CEO brings 20x the value to the company.

If the CEO's make major financial  blunders, they can cost a lot of people their jobs. Of course, here in America, at least, CEO's get multi-million dollar bonuses even if they crash their company.

I'm more of a share-the-wealth type of person. If I were a CEO making even $8K per month, which is far more than I need, I might figure out ways to return the money that I don't need to those employees who worked the hardest to make the company successful. Maybe scholarships, bonuses, lotteries, 401K contributions, free health insurance, expense-paid vacations, etc. Of course, another solution to get rid of excess income might be to just charge less for the services or products which will benefit the consumer.

[bonnie]

$400K per year works out to $33,333 per month before taxes. $100K per year works out to $8,333 per month. 

Like someone else said, when the lower wage employees get raises, they spend it and it helps improve the economy. When the highest paid management receive even higher salaries, it has little effect on the economy because they stash all the money they don't need, or can't spend fast enough, in banks.

This doesn't even make sense.The highest paid management  that receives an even higher salary  put more into the economy in a week  than the minimum wage or middle class earner kicks into the economy  in a year.I worked for a fantastically wealthy family for a number of years. What they paid in personal property tax alone every year exceeded the yearly salary of most lower wage earners. They also employed several employee's full time to keep their massive home and grounds.On the job they employed thousand's and were responsible for their job performance and to make sure that any chance of being fined for violations are non-existent or kept to a bare minimum. The share holders also want to see a profit. 

$400K per year works out to $33,333 per month before taxes. $100K per year works out to $8,333 per month.   Whether you approve of the way the money is spent or not the wealthy can spend that in a day.That goes into the economy,not under someone's mattress. My employer thought it would be nice to have a very expensive exotic bird in colors to match the tile in their indoor swimming pool. The bird cost well over 10,000 with accessories.

They also have far more responsibility that the lower wage earner.They have spent years paying off student loans and working for a much lower salary.

If the CEO's make major financial  blunders, they can cost a lot of people their jobs. Of course, here in America, at least, CEO's get multi-million dollar bonuses even if they crash their company.

I'm more of a share-the-wealth type of person. If I were a CEO making even $8K per month, which is far more than I need, I might figure out ways to return the money that I don't need to those employees who worked the hardest to make the company successful. Maybe scholarships, bonuses, lotteries, 401K contributions, free health insurance, expense-paid vacations, etc. Of course, another solution to get rid of excess income might be to just charge less for the services or products which will benefit the consumer.

​There are a lot of people that make the kind of statements you do. The only person you have to account for is yourself.Do you do the best and wisest with what you do have as you think others with more should do?. . Rather than condemn those with more they got an education and applied themselves to the best of their abilities and are no longer lower wage earners. They didn't have one thing more than those living on the poverty level except motivation and that is something you can't buy.

They place far more into the economy for personal and charitable spending than their lowest wage earning employee. A minimum wage of 15.00 an hour would not put as much into the economy yearly as they do.

My sons have very lucrative positions and from what you say they are grossly overpaid. They skirimped,went without, and sacrificed at the lower wage level. Nor did they have public assistance or food stamps.

Edited June 9, 2015 by bonnie

[bonnie]

Just a question for those that have so much angst over CEO's and those with more money. Do you give an amount to others that is in proportion income wise to what many of the wealthy give? It was very gratifying for me to learn my son was audited because his  contributions to charity exceeded what the IRS thought reasonable. While you condemn those like him what knowledge do you have of what they do with their income and are you in the same league with your contributions? Or is it just easier and more righteous sounding to say if only I were like them I would.............

[joeb]

I have to say I, for the most part, agree with Bonnie.  I would disagree with her, I think, when we get into things like golden parachutes which are often given to corporate officers who were so incompetent they basically destroyed the companies they were responsible for and cost thousands of people their livelihood. 

Someone who invests their own money in a business has a right to expect both a return on the money they put at risk and the time, effort, and skill they invested in their business.   Proverbs make this clear in its many verses on how a wise man handles his money.  Do we see greed in some rich people though?  Of course we do.  We live in a world of sin.  But is greed involved also at the other end, the low income end?  Of course it is.  All of humanity is capable of greed, not just rich people.  Is it greed to want what someone else has and to dislike them because of what they have?  Yes.  The Bible makes that clear.  

Without people who will invest their money, time, and effort in creating businesses the vast majority of the poor would never have a job.  So, is it wise to despise and dislike the hands that feed the poor, for the people who run businesses feed their employees just as surely as does a charity who gives away their food to someone who is not being fed by an employer.   How many of you who despise the "rich" have put in 80 hour weeks and still not slept at night because you're worried about making payroll when times are rough?  How many of you have agonized when you had to lay someone off because you knew how this would hurt that person?  Do you think that is worthless?  Do you think no one should be compensated for those types of things?  There are 10s of thousands of people out there who do that on a daily basis. 

I know quite a few small business people.  They care about their employees.  It hurts them to see their employees hurt financially.  They would like to pay them better but cannot and still maintain a healthy business.  And if they do not maintain a healthy business they will hurt their employees even more for they will go out of business and their employees will no longer have a job. 

The rabid hatred I see here for business people does not speak well for those who hold it.  It's not a very Christian attitude to hold.

[Bravus]

I'm not sure how a desire for fairness gets misconstrued as 'rabid hatred'. No hatred of people, business or otherwise, on my part. Some anger at ideologies, sure. Jesus taking up whips against unfair traders is an example I take to heart.

[Aliensanctuary]

It's OK if some in this world make a lot of money and buy a lot of stuff or travel to distant places, but in the next life we wont own much, if any, stuff. All of the money and stuff we used to have will no longer exist, and neither will the system that created wealthy individuals.

It's the poor who will inherit the Earth, according to Christ. This life is a tiny blip in the time continuum, but the next life is supposed to go on forever. It might be better to live under a bridge than to be a millionaire or billionaire.

[bonnie]

Yes it is okay that some make a lot of money. We all have a responsiblity to those in need. 

Being under a bridge because of your own lack is not any better than the wealthy.  Living off others without doing all possible to improve your situation is not biblical. For some what is possible can be very limited and for some the only behavior that is possible is to use what they are given as responsibly as they can. For the physically and mentally able bodied that don't do all that is possible God has a few words for them as well

The Parable of the Talents
…25'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' 26"But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.…

 

 

Warning against Idleness
…9not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.10For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. 11For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.…

[bonnie]

Being poor is not a ticket to heaven. The poor can be as guilty of the same acts as the wealthy. Being poor because you are not dong your best is not a virtue. 

[joeb]

I'm not sure how a desire for fairness gets misconstrued as 'rabid hatred'. No hatred of people, business or otherwise, on my part. Some anger at ideologies, sure. Jesus taking up whips against unfair traders is an example I take to heart.

​I see a lot of anger against business.  I see a lot of people who do not seem to understand how business works too, and most of them are angry with business people.  They buy into the socialist mantra and the "unfairness" baloney.  Jesus also said there will always be poor people. 

I'm poor.   I'm probably in the bottom 1% when wealth is measured.  I completely reject socialism because it just won't work.  It takes away liberty, incentive, responsibility, accountability, etc...  Centralized control always does that.  It has to.  It is built right into it. 

A free people who are allowed the liberty to rise as far as they are able will always outproduce a government controlled population.  That will always produce the greatest standard of living for the greatest number of people.  It will always reduce the number of people in true poverty.   Nothing will ever get rid of poverty completely for there will always be people incapable of holding their own, and those too lazy to work and succeed.

[joeb]

The Parable of the Talents
…25'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' 26"But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.…

 

 

Warning against Idleness
…9not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.10For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. 11For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.…

​I don't know where you found the post you replied to here.  I've never written those words.

[bonnie]

​I don't know where you found the post you replied to here.  I've never written those words.

​Sorry about that,don't know how that happened

[joeb]

​Sorry about that,don't know how that happened

​The software thought it was my post too so it's not your fault.  I'm just curious as to where you found the post.

[Bravus]

Whereas I'm in the top 10%, in income if not assets. And still argue that those like me who are more comfortable should be willing to pay enough taxes to fund the services we all share, and some to help out those who are struggling through no fault of their own.

The thing is, you seem to have been sold the lie that there is not a continuum, just two options: the current model of robber baron capitalism or soviet-style centrally planned communism. But there are dozens of social democracies around the world. Australia, the UK and Canada all have socialised healthcare but are clearly not communist. There are points along the continuum. No-one is arguing for communism.

You have been sold a lie in terms of equal opportunity: it is very obvious that the current model of robber baron capitalism is very heavily slanted to give even more to those already advantaged, and keep those already disadvantaged in their place. Opportunity is *not* evenly distributed, but as long as you believe it is you will continue to vote and advocate against your own interests.

[Bravus]

(FWIW, I got to my present comfortable position from having two parents who were low paid factory workers. They worked and sacrificed, my great aunt sacrificed, and I worked hard, to get here. And nothing stopped me from doing that in social democratic Australia. Indeed, government funding for healthcare and education and a number of other things helped me up the ladder... and I want to keep extending those opportunities to the generations that follow me)