The 144,000

[Stan]

This came up in a casual conversation.  Are the 144,000 made up of males and females?

 

I know there is very little said about this elite group.  Interested in a response.

[Outta Here]

Probably only male voluntary eunuchs.

[pnattmbtc]

12,000 from each tribe.

[phkrause]

According to a few, they are probably all men!

[8thdaypriest]

Rev 6:17 asks a question.  "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"  WHO ????

The ANSWER to the question is the 144,000 - "from all the tribes of Israel".  These are sealed, and will STAND in "the day of His wrath".  When is "the day of His wrath" ?  I believe that DAY will be the glorious second coming.    That is the DAY the 7th trumpet sounds, when "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ" (11:15), when it is "time to reward your servants", and time to destroy those who destroy the earth.  It will be the day when the 7 wrath plagues are poured out. 

In 14:1-5, the 144,000 stand with the Lamb on Mt Zion as the last wrath plagues are poured out on the earth - just as the "great harlot" is burned and Babylon falls.

The 4 angels hold back the winds UNTIL the "servants of our God" are "SEALED" "on their foreheads".  7:4  "And I heard the number of those who were sealed.  144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". 

First you would have to define "Israel" in Rev 7:4.  Personally I do not believe the "Israel" referred to here, is the literal geopolitical nation today called Israel.  I don't believe it refers to those who are DNA descendants of Jacob.  I believe that ISRAEL, in this passage, is spiritual Israel - faith Israel.  She is those who have "prevailed with God" through Jesus Christ. 

In 14:1-5  John sees the 144,000 standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion.  The Father's name is written on their foreheads.  They sing "a new song" that no one else can learn.  They were "not defiled with women" (false harlot churches) because they have a pure doctrine.  They follow the Lamb.  They are "firstfruits" of the Lamb.  They are without fault before the throne of God. 

At each "harvest" the "firstfruits" were brought to the Temple and offered to the LORD.  Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the "harvest" which was gathered from the earth WHEN the "saints" were resurrected just after Christ was resurrected.   That was the Spring harvest.  (The Spring harvest was barley.  The story of Gideon and the dream of one enemy soldier wherein a "barley cake" rolled thru the camp and knocked down all the tents" is symbolic of Christ.)  There was also a Summer harvest, and a Fall harvest. 

So the question:  Of which harvest are the 144,000 the firstfruits?   It seems that the "great multitude" are the bulk of that same harvest.  

v. 9  "After these things I looked, and behold a GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands."  This great multitude is made up of those who "come out of the great tribulation".  They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.  AND "they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.  SO THESE ARE PRIESTS. 

Is this "great multitude" the SAME as the 144,000?   Or is the "great multitude" in addition to the 144,000?   This "multitude" appear to have been delivered at the SAME as the 144,000, and they become priests who "serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE.  

THE FIRSTFRUITS were always PRESENTED FIRST !!!    Which "fruits" are presented first, when Jesus returns?  Are they not "those who have fallen asleep"? Paul said, "we who are alive and remain" "will not preceded those who have fallen asleep".  Right??  Which makes me wonder whether the DEAD will be the firstfruits, and the rest will be the "great multitude" who will "come out of great tribulation".  Just wondering......

If the firstfruits, with the "great multitude",  together make up the harvest at the Second Coming - will there not be ANOTHER HARVEST - one presented at a future Tabernacles?   Personally, I believe that "harvest" will come from "the rest of the dead".  Zechariah 14 has them coming up to Mt Zion for the Feast of Tabernacles. 

Also - after each harvest, the chaff was burned.  Jerusalem and Judea were destroyed by the Romans.  The earth will be destroyed and burned by the 7 wrath plagues.  And the chaff from "the rest of the dead" will be consumed at Gog/Magog. 

[Nan]

I have been reading the EGW compilation Last Day Events and the other day came across a statement regarding a certain Sister Hastings, who had recently died.. The comment was made the company did not need to mourn for her, as she would be of the 144,000

I am just passing this on, not trying to argue who is in the group..

[RonP]

Sorry Nan, the statement says (with my additions):

I saw that she [Mrs. Hastings] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God  [the special resurrection of Daniel 12] and stand upon the earth, and would be with  [not one of] the 144,000. I saw we need not mourn for her; she would rest in the time of trouble.--2SM 263 (1850).  {LDE 222.4} 

A major characteristic of the 144,000 is that they do not die.

But I do believe that spiritual Israel is made up of women as well as men!!

[whbae]

As the Bible usually represents just men when counting people, most like 144,000 represents male.  If this is true there would be a lot more numbers which would include women and children.

[teresaq]

 

In 14:1-5  John sees the 144,000 standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion.  The Father's name is written on their foreheads.  They sing "a new song" that no one else can learn.  They were "not defiled with women" (false harlot churches) because they have a pure doctrine.  They follow the Lamb.  They are "firstfruits" of the Lamb.  They are without fault before the throne of God. 

At each "harvest" the "firstfruits" were brought to the Temple and offered to the LORD.  Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the "harvest" which was gathered from the earth WHEN the "saints" were resurrected just after Christ was resurrected.   That was the Spring harvest.  (The Spring harvest was barley.  The story of Gideon and the dream of one enemy soldier wherein a "barley cake" rolled thru the camp and knocked down all the tents" is symbolic of Christ.)  There was also a Summer harvest, and a Fall harvest. 

So the question:  Of which harvest are the 144,000 the firstfruits?   It seems that the "great multitude" are the bulk of that same harvest.  

v. 9  "After these things I looked, and behold a GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands."  This great multitude is made up of those who "come out of the great tribulation".  They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.  AND "they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.  SO THESE ARE PRIESTS. 

Is this "great multitude" the SAME as the 144,000?   Or is the "great multitude" in addition to the 144,000?   This "multitude" appear to have been delivered at the SAME as the 144,000, and they become priests who "serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE.  

 

​That's certainly what the Shepherd's Rod teaches and believes. Doug Batchelor teaches similar, and I don't know how many else. I know it pleases my ears as who wants to believe there will only be 144,000 left standing, whether figuratively speaking or not.

Ellen White viewed it differently as did the pioneers. Ellen White saw:

Soon we [see Appendix.] heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses’ did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {EW 14.1}

The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus’ new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us who could wash one another’s feet and salute the brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshiped at our feet.{EW 15.1}

Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man’s hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man. We all in solemn silence gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer and became lighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire; a rainbow was over the cloud, while around it were ten thousand angels, singing a most lovely song; and upon it sat the Son of man. His hair was white and curly and lay on His shoulders; and upon His head were many crowns. His feet had the appearance of fire; in His right hand was a sharp sickle; in His left, a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched His children through and through. Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out, “Who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless?” Then the angels ceased to sing, and there was some time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke: “Those who have clean hands and pure hearts shall be able to stand; My grace is sufficient for you.” At this our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sang again, while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. {EW 15.2}

A brief part of our original understanding:

By the scenes introduced in the verses before us, namely, the four winds apparently about to blow, bringing war and trouble upon the land, and this work restrained till the servants of God should be sealed, as though a preparatory work must be done for them to save them from this trouble, we are reminded of the houses of the Israelites marked with the blood of the paschal lamb, and spared as the destroying angel passed over to slay the first-born of the Egyptians (Exodus 12); also of the mark made by the man with a writer’s ink-horn (Ezekiel 9) upon all those who were to be spared by the men with the slaughtering weapons who followed after; and we conclude that the seal of God, here placed upon his servants, is some distinguishing mark, or religious characteristic, through which they will be exempted from the judgments of God that fall on the wicked around them.{DAR 465.1}

[teresaq]

According to our original understanding and position on the mark of the beast and seal of God the 144,000 are those who are left standing (for God) after the enforcement of the universal Sunday law and probation closing.

According to the biblical definition of "man":

• Genesis 1:27So God created man in his own image... male and female created he them.
• Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

James White:

They seem to forget that ‘man’ and ‘men’ in the Scriptures generally means both male and female."
--(Review and Herald, Jan. 7, 1858, pp. 68-69)

[8thdaypriest]

As the Bible usually represents just men when counting people, most like 144,000 represents male.  If this is true there would be a lot more numbers which would include women and children.

​144,000 is a SYMBOLIC number - made up of EXACTLY 12,000 from each of 12 tribes.  Dan is NOT listed as one of the tribes.  Joseph is not listed, but his two sons are each listed as a separate tribe. 

[8thdaypriest]

I prefer to let the Bible be its own expositor.  I have many, many doubts (some grave doubts) concerning the "inspiration" of Ellen G. White.

[whbae]

8thdaypriest said;

I prefer to let the Bible be its own expositor.  I have many, many doubts (some grave doubts) concerning the "inspiration" of Ellen G. White.

It is your privilege what to believe or not. To me Ellen White helps to understand the Bible better. No matter what Ellen White said there will be people who would not believe her.  The very same thing happened in Jesus' day. No matter what Jesus did and said, there were people who would not turn their heart  to Jesus.

[Martn]

The number may --or may not-- be symbolic. 
However, not everything in John's book of symbols is. 
Some of the topics appear elsewhere. 
In no uncertain terms. Multiple times. 

Matthew 19:10-12.
Luke 20:34-36.
1 Corinthians 7:1, 7, 8.

They follow the example of Jesus. 
In every respect.

Revelation 14:4.

(What did Jesus do?)

They are not defiled with women.
Marriage back then was a man's option. Now it is everyone's affair.
So women are not excluded, I think.

Before God we are neither male nor female.
Men judge by outward appearance, but God sees only the heart.
(A gay couple is the very same thing as a straight couple, in God's eyes.)

Galatians 3:28.

This is not a popular idea. I know.
Which is what keeps (most) people from accepting it.
(Even though it is very plainly stated. Over and over again.)
Not everyone can accept it, Jesus said.

Matthew 19:11.

Because it requires refrainment not only from the act, but from the very desire itself.
In God's eyes an act of the heart is the same as an act of the body.

Matthew 5:28.

Most people cannot control themselves this way, of course.
And that is why we have marriage. The ONLY approved outlet.
But by permission. Not by commandment, Paul says.
(Paul warns against those who forbid marriage.)
(The only people forbiding marriage today are fundamentalist Christians, oddly enough.)

1 Corinthians 7:2-6.

The 144,000 are indeed an exclusive club. Very few in number.
Are they the only ones who will be saved? I don't think so.
I do believe, however, they are the only ones who get to go to heaven.

They are the only ones taken out of the earth, it says.

Revelation 14:3.

Because they are equal to the angels.

Luke 20:36.

 

[whbae]

MCBGM,     

You said "I do believe, however, they are the only ones who get to go to heaven."

Then, where will those who were in the first resurrection be for a thousand years?

[8thdaypriest]

Maybe the 144,000 represents those who were perfected in character during the age from the Cross to the Second Coming....  The "firstfruits" were always the BEST.

Just a thought

[Aliensanctuary]

If the 144K are resurrected martyrs, then perhaps they are neither male nor female.

[Martn]

MCBGM,     

You said "I do believe, however, they are the only ones who get to go to heaven."

Then, where will those who were in the first resurrection be for a thousand years?

Give them up to Satan for the destruction of their bodies, that their spirits may be saved at the final coming of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

Every man's temple will be judged by fire. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. And if any man's temple is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, though through fire. If any man defiles the temple of God, he will God destroy, for the temple of God is holy.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17

The first resurrection, as I understand it, was 2000 years ago, when the Saints came forth from their graves and ascended along with Jesus. So, that is when the "thousand years" actually began. A "thousand years" back then was just a figure of speech, meaning any long, indefinite period of time, not a literal thousand years. So the millennium is still ongoing, at the end of which Jesus will return --for the second (not third), and final, time.

2 Peter 3:8-10

Believe it or not, this is what nearly ALL Christians believed. Up until about 200 years ago, when millennial fanaticism set in --traceable to the Darbyites who took as their authority the mad ravings of a poor little girl suffering from mental retardation. According to her testimony, and hers alone, there would be not one, but two, Second Advents, with Jesus coming first to rapture the righteous away to heaven and later, after seven years, coming again to judge the wicked. Many different Adventist groups soon adopted this idea, including the Millerites who eventually became, for the most part, today's Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists, both of which inserted a millennium in place of the seven years proposed by Darby.

The binding of Satan, therefore, began 2000 years ago with the rise of the Church. Satan has been restrained during this period from revealing himself openly as he and his angels had done up until that time.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-9

The beast, his image, and mark were, therefore, already active in the world, 2000 years ago.

2 Thessalonians 2:7

Revelation 20:4

 

[JoeMo]

The binding of Satan, therefore, began 2000 years ago with the rise of the Church. Satan has been restrained during this period from revealing himself openly as he and his angels had done up until that time.

I beg to differ.  satan may appear to be bound be our civilized western way of thinking.  Talk to missionaries who have been in the back woods of Asia and Africa.  Try to convince them that satan is "bound" on those continents, where people are cursed with affliction and even death by evil shamans.  Even Christian missionaries have died as a result of these curses.  Many shamans have had their power broken off by God at the bidding  of devout spiritually gifted missionaries.  When demonic power is made manifest in the western world at the end of time, it will blow most of us away.

[phkrause]

This is what Doug Batchelor says about the 144,000

[Martn]

Talk to missionaries who have been in the back woods of Asia and Africa.  Try to convince them that satan is "bound" on those continents, where people are cursed with affliction and even death by evil shamans.  Even Christian missionaries have died as a result of these curses.

Humans are good storytellers. In most cases that is all it is. Having grown up in a very haunted house (worse than Amityville!) I can, however, appreciate your point, but I'm not convinced these evil spirits are the spirits of Satan and his angels. I find they are in fact what most people perceive them to be.

Nevertheless it does say Satan has been "bound" (old English word "let") --in some way-- these past 2000 years.

2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7 & Jude 6

Indeed people will be blown away when Satan and his angels finally are let loose --at the end of time-- as you say.

 

[JoeMo]

I looked at the verses you posted in context.  It talks about the man of lawlessness being held back; and those angels that abandoned their positions of authority.  It never mentions satan specifically.  In fact, the verses in Thessalonians indicate that the lawless one will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming.  That doesn't refer to satan; he will not be destroyed until the end of the millenium.  In fact, 1 Peter 5:8 tells us that "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."  Doesn't sound bound to me.

If you don't think "ghosts" are demons, but are "in fact what most people perceive them to be", do you (and most people) think they are disembodied human spirits?

[Martn]

On 6/18/2015 at 10:46 AM, JoeMo said:

I looked at the verses you posted in context.  It talks about the man of lawlessness being held back; and those angels that abandoned their positions of authority.  It never mentions satan specifically.  In fact, the verses in Thessalonians indicate that the lawless one will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming.  That doesn't refer to satan; he will not be destroyed until the end of the millenium.  In fact, 1 Peter 5:8 tells us that "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."  Doesn't sound bound to me.

If you don't think "ghosts" are demons, but are "in fact what most people perceive them to be", do you (and most people) think they are disembodied human spirits?

My position (and of nearly everyone else, up until about two hundred years ago) is the Second Coming happens not before, but at the end of the millennium, that there is no such thing as a third advent (an idea which began with John Nelson Darby and is part of the rapture theory), that the millennium (not a literal thousand-year period) is happening right now and has been ever since the first resurrection (of Jesus and the Saints who ascended with him) 2000 years ago, and therefore the Lawless one (he who rejects Torah, and thus opposes the Jews too, the literal Jews) will of course be defeated at the Second (final) coming of Jesus (Jesus, the perfect Jew). This, believe it or not, is how most Christians even today understand the concept, the majority of whom are Catholic.

A few people continue to believe Catholicism (and its representative, the pope) is the Lawless one, a hate teaching sadly still held by some (hopefully not most) Adventists --along with Nazis, the KKK, and similar hate groups. (I do know many SDA's who no longer think this way, thankfully.) My understanding, however, is this Lawless one is Satan incarnate, pretending to be Jesus, and claiming to be God on earth, which he will do at the end of the millennium, after he is loose again, just before the real Jesus returns, the second, final time.

Jude 6 plainly says the angels who rebelled are already chained up in an abyss, and will remain there, until the final day. That would include Satan, since he was one of the angels who rebelled. It would be strange to jail only his accomplices and not the ringleader himself.

Like the lions in Daniel and the Lion's Den, Satan is indeed looking around for someone to devour. Because he is hungry --because he is locked up in a den of sorts. We need to behave ourselves and not end up in there with him, Peter says.

Where the people of Sodom "are" even now "suffering" (present tense) the vengeance of unending fire (a fire of mental torment, I believe, not an actual fire).

Jude 6,  7.

Of course if we have a vested interest in believing Satan is not bound (else the spirits haunting houses and so forth could not be him and his angels) then no amount of evidence will ever be convincing enough that he and his angels in fact are bound.

[JoeMo]

My position (and of nearly everyone else, up until about two hundred years ago) is the Second Coming happens not before, but at the end of the millennium, that there is no such thing as a third advent (an idea which began with John Nelson Darby and is part of the rapture theory), that the millennium (not a literal thousand-year period) is happening right now and has been ever since the first resurrection (of Jesus and the Saints who ascended with him) 2000 years ago, and therefore the Lawless one (he who rejects Torah, and thus opposes the Jews too, the literal Jews) will of course be defeated at the Second (final) coming of Jesus (Jesus, the perfect Jew). This, believe it or not, is how most Christians even today understand the concept, the majority of whom are Catholic.

Wow.  I must have been living in a cave for the past 65 years (with Doug Batchellor?), including the 25 years I was a Catholic.  I've investigated many interpretations of scripture; but this one is totally new to me.  I can't even begin to get my head around how you can even pull this out of scripture.  Suffice it to say that this is NOT what I believe.  Does anyone else out these find this rather - ahhh - "original"?  I've always thought (still very strongly think) that Revelation talks about a second coming where the elect are saved, the condemned are destroyed and satan bound; then the 1,000 years, then the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" and satan released from his chains, and finally the Great Day of God when all evil and death is finally and permanently destroyed. Silly me!

You never quite answered my question:

If the "ghosts" that torment people and haunt houses and pagan temples aren't demons, what are they?

[hch]

This came up in a casual conversation.  Are the 144,000 made up of males and females?

 

I know there is very little said about this elite group.  Interested in a response.

Of course, they are males because they are described as being "kings and priests."

And everybody knows that we do not have female "kings and priests" on earth.

And Jesus did say that what you allow on earth will be allowed in Heaven. Thus since the Church does not allow females to be kings and priests on earth, the church has dictated that the 144,000 will all be males in Heaven. lol

Edited June 19, 2015 by hch
left out a word