DreamWeaver Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 Certainly it is a process. I am sure there could be many difficult decisions, but if someone is set and determined to live a non Biblical lifestyle, not struggling but totally given in to flagrant practice, they cannot be the kind of influence for good I would hope for. Same with someone who is married with one person and openly and flagrantly living in adultery with someone else. Or someone who is a drug addict, a Satanist, or an embezzler or a bigamist. I starting to see your point. Lauralea 1 Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 Certainly it is a process. I am sure there could be many difficult decisions, but if someone is set and determined to live a non Biblical lifestyle, not struggling but totally given in to flagrant practice, they cannot be the kind of influence for good I would hope for. Same with someone who is married with one person and openly and flagrantly living in adultery with someone else. Or someone who is a drug addict, a Satanist, or an embezzler or a bigamist. There are Gay Christians who live Monogamous Married/Coupled or dating/courting lives who understand the scriptures differently addressing Homosexuality. It is hard to fathom cause of the way we are brought up traditionally and most people I know will not give it a free hearing. Looking at the culture and practices of the day helps to understand the context as well as understanding word origins and very possible misunderstandings even since antiquity. Can those wonderful People who love the Lord like you and me be part of the institution? Like Christians of other faiths? If our institution hires such? Both a different perspective in Old and New Testament. I starting to see your point. Certainly it is a process. I am sure there could be many difficult decisions, but if someone is set and determined to live a non Biblical lifestyle, not struggling but totally given in to flagrant practice, they cannot be the kind of influence for good I would hope for. Same with someone who is married with one person and openly and flagrantly living in adultery with someone else. Or someone who is a drug addict, a Satanist, or an embezzler or a bigamist. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Lauralea Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 There are Gay Christians who live Monogamous Married/Coupled or dating/courting lives who understand the scriptures differently addressing Homosexuality. It is hard to fathom cause of the way we are brought up traditionally and most people I know will not give it a free hearing. Looking at the culture and practices of the day helps to understand the context as well as understanding word origins and very possible misunderstandings even since antiquity. Can those wonderful People who love the Lord like you and me be part of the institution? Like Christians of other faiths? If our institution hires such? Both a different perspective in Old and New Testament. I think there are a lot of questions implied here. I do not think it is helping people who are gay to say they just see it differently because it is a salvational issue. I do not treat people harshly whether gay or otherwise but they know where I stand, often not by saying anything. I have a friend who is a recovering heroin addict and a former witch who has turned to me repeatedly for help. She knows I care and do not judge her, but I do not approve of her continuing to use heroin. I help her when she tries to get off and did not judge her when her ex boyfriend overdosed- she started him on heroin- and almost died and she turned to me for prayer. At the same time, I do not encourage her to continue to live the lifestyle. And she knows this. I have had friends who are gay now, whose orientation is changing, and who have changed their behavior so they are now in heterosexual marriage. I think we should be loving and supportive of people in the process, but not be forever mute that we see the process as unnecessary. In terms of who we employ in our facilities, in an ideal situation it would be those with decision making similarity about salvational issues because they can most effectively help others. I understand we should love and care for people where they are and yet while Jesus did this he bade them to follow him and told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. Many believe this to have been Mary Magdalene, who later became one of his closest followers. She followed Jesus, and sometimes lapsed, but at least she was making efforts to leave the lifestyle and praying to him for forgiveness when she fell. She was not openly and flagrantly continuing in prostitution while she served him. Same with Rahab. I think it is more loving to let people know the truth than to just act like it does not matter. Subtly. In the right time and way. phkrause and Robert 2 Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us.
brotherly love Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 There are Gay Christians who live Monogamous Married/Coupled or dating/courting lives who understand the scriptures differently addressing Homosexuality. It is hard to fathom cause of the way we are brought up traditionally and most people I know will not give it a free hearing. Looking at the culture and practices of the day helps to understand the context as well as understanding word origins and very possible misunderstandings even since antiquity. Can those wonderful People who love the Lord like you and me be part of the institution? Like Christians of other faiths? If our institution hires such? Both a different perspective in Old and New Testament. A person who practices same sex sexuality and then tries to harmonize this with arguments from cultural revisionism may try to fool others, but they will have to answer to God one day for what they are doing. If the cultural revisionism justifies same sex sexuality, then this would also apply to other commandments. The commandment on this sin is the main and the plain, but those that try to wiggle around this are simply telling God that He does not know what He is talking about and that they know better. This is not following God, but is telling God you know better and He is to follow you on the matter. In the Hebrew Law, there was 2 forms of law. Case law (casuistic) and divine commandments (apodictic) In case law it is appropriate to ask questions of the Law and even look for loopholes. In the case of rape, a women screaming in the countryside and in the city have two different results. This law is not set in stone and is example in one certain circumstance. We are totally permitted to ask questions and look for loopholes. The screaming is not the focal point-it only is an indicator of consent. What if a women was beaten,gagged or tied up and did not scream. These would have come up in case law. The common indicator of casuistic is the word "if" this happens. Apodictic law is different, a command or a group of commands will start out with "I am the Lord your God". It would be totally inappropriate to question these commands or look for wiggle room. These commands are what a faithful person or assembly are to aim for. To look for loopholes would be in defiance of God and would be evidence of a person or group wanting to sin. Quote
DreamWeaver Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) There are Gay Christians who live Monogamous Married/Coupled or dating/courting lives who understand the scriptures differently addressing Homosexuality. As much as I know I've seen those kind of relationships and as much as I don't like to imagine an area where work discrimination is potentially reasonable... I think your last comment is the very point that Lauralea is trying to make. The appearance of there being nothing wrong with two people of the same sex in a marriage is quite confusing. Its currently a modern day hot issue that most people are either misled about or undecided on. It could cause complications in the area of ministry to have to work along side someone who seeks to pluck seeds out of the ground after someone else has been toiling to sow them. This is something I will have to pray and educate myself on, but Lauralea's point is not a void one. Edited July 25, 2015 by DreamWeaver phkrause 1 Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 25, 2015 Members Posted July 25, 2015 I think there are a lot of questions implied here. I do not think it is helping people who are gay to say they just see it differently because it is a salvational issue. I do not treat people harshly whether gay or otherwise but they know where I stand, often not by saying anything. I have a friend who is a recovering heroin addict and a former witch who has turned to me repeatedly for help. She knows I care and do not judge her, but I do not approve of her continuing to use heroin. I help her when she tries to get off and did not judge her when her ex boyfriend overdosed- she started him on heroin- and almost died and she turned to me for prayer. At the same time, I do not encourage her to continue to live the lifestyle. And she knows this. I have had friends who are gay now, whose orientation is changing, and who have changed their behavior so they are now in heterosexual marriage. I think we should be loving and supportive of people in the process, but not be forever mute that we see the process as unnecessary. In terms of who we employ in our facilities, in an ideal situation it would be those with decision making similarity about salvational issues because they can most effectively help others. I understand we should love and care for people where they are and yet while Jesus did this he bade them to follow him and told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. Many believe this to have been Mary Magdalene, who later became one of his closest followers. She followed Jesus, and sometimes lapsed, but at least she was making efforts to leave the lifestyle and praying to him for forgiveness when she fell. She was not openly and flagrantly continuing in prostitution while she served him. Same with Rahab. I think it is more loving to let people know the truth than to just act like it does not matter. Subtly. In the right time and way. Exactly, great post Lauralea 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 Exactly, great post I think it is more loving to let people know the truth than to just act like it does not matter. Subtly. In the right time and way. To remain silent when another we know is rapidly heading in the direction of a precipice they will be unable to recover from, speaks more of cowardice than concern. God is Love! Jesus saves! Lauralea and B/W Photodude 2 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Johann Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 just a FWIW — not all individuals who identify as being gay are active participants in the gay lifestyle... Who would you rather hire, someone who confesses he is an AA or one who hides it and drinks when he thinks he can get away with it? GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
DreamWeaver Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 Who would you rather hire, someone who confesses he is an AA or one who hides it and drinks when he thinks he can get away with it? Neither? There are also those who may relapse and do stuff in secret. But if you asked them if they were proud of themselves and would condone it for anyone else, they'd say they know they are wrong, they desire to stop and they would recommend people don't do it. brotherly love 1 Quote
Johann Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Neither would we probably hire Peter or Paul as a pastor of our church. Quote
DreamWeaver Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 That's not true. Your logic isn't making any sense to me. Did you even read what Lauralea said, and what I said about this issue being a current day controversy that's causing a lot of people to stumble? Peter and Paul were for the truth. They had their flaws that they probably weren't 100% aware of and sometimes they were a bit over confident at points in their lives, but I can't recall them openly trying to commit sin and then manipulate scripture to condone it. Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I really appreciate all the thoughts I read on this thread. I don't agree one hundred percent. But who does? I am putting forward the notion of Christians of all Faiths being in our institutions if our institutions are not 100 percent full with us good Adventist. What ever Faith. Including the faith of many Episcopalians and Catholics and Baptists and Shakers and Gay Affirming churches and as well as Segments of Churches and what not. Whether we agree or not with the Employees Faith. As long as Christian? ..err right? ... uhh... Another thread! That where I am coming from Exactly. #there are many good gay Christians who would be a blessing in our Institutions. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Johann Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 That's not true. Your logic isn't making any sense to me. Did you even read what Lauralea said, and what I said about this issue being a current day controversy that's causing a lot of people to stumble? Peter and Paul were for the truth. They had their flaws that they probably weren't 100% aware of and sometimes they were a bit over confident at points in their lives, but I can't recall them openly trying to commit sin and then manipulate scripture to condone it. What percentage of our church on a world wide base is prepared to accept the total truth about themselves? Quote
DreamWeaver Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 What percentage of our church on a world wide base is prepared to accept the total truth about themselves? Johann, that really is a good question. One that's so good that it deserves its own thread. But for now, let's stay on topic because I think we're running into a question that will derail the thread and lead us to nowhere. There's no need to put the whole church in this if we're trying to speak on one particular sin. So unless the WHOLE church is participating in homosexual activities, then your point is nothing more than a distraction. I'll repeat myself again: Did you even read what Lauralea said, and what I said about this issue being a current day controversy that's causing a lot of people to stumble? If the sins of the other church members are not being confused for righteousness and not be socially defended as a special protected class, then their activities are not half as controversial as certain other sins (in this case, homosexuality). The issue is, this particular sin is a not "just another sin" like it used to be. It has grown into a complex and exhausting issue in our world today. Because of this people are simply trying to be extra careful about not allowing confusion on this sin due to the fact that unlike other sins that can usually be reasonably discussed, this sin is a pet sin of our world today. All people are trying to do is figure out an appropriate way to rise a standard against all the confusion. And to me, that seems like a reasonable perspective to have with everything that's been going on. As for my humble little brain, I said I would pray and educate myself more about this kind of stuff. So I'm sorry, but I can't go toe to toe with you on this. Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 31, 2015 Moderators Posted July 31, 2015 Dreamweaver is correct in saying t hat the issue of homosexuality is very complex. it is for that fact that I believe that Johann's question was on topic. Perhaps I have not understood the topic, although I have read the posts. Or, perhaps, people reading Johann did not understand his comment. Quote Gregory
Administrators debbym Posted July 31, 2015 Administrators Posted July 31, 2015 What percentage of our church on a world wide base is prepared to accept the total truth about themselves? In the SOP is a comment that God does not tell anyone all that he might about their sin condition. There is not anyone who knows all that there is to know about the total truth about themselves. we are so vulnerable to demanding a higher standard in those around us than we hold to ourselves. Somehow, since we are doing everything we know is truth, we just know when those around us are doing or not doing what they know is true. It is the presentation of the Character of God that brings the world to stumble, not an elucidation of the sins of humanity. We are all already swimming in the sea of humanity. Jesus walked on the sea, and only when we have our eyes fixed on him will we walk above our humanity and the humanity of others. Sin was condemned in the presence of jesus, by the power of the Spirit. Sin was condemned in Jesus when he died the death of the sinner. When Jesus is in our hearts we experience the condemnation of our sin, so we can live in Him. if we do not look away from what we do, and what others do, and just look to what Jesus has done and is doing for us all, the rock will fall on us and crush us. There is never a time on this earth when what we are and what we do will pass the inspecting eye of God and hold us up without the sustaining power and grace of the Holy Spirit and angels. God is merciful and gracious in all that he does. Ps 147. Even though Noah followed all the instruction in building the ark, all the right materials, and specific building plans... if the angels had not held the ark together it would have still failed in the turbulence of the flood storm. Whoever we are, whatever we do or have done... the question is do we lay it all down at the foot of the cross. Do we cast down all that we know we are are and all that we do, and pray that only Christ will be lifted up in us. Paul said" i am determined to know nothing among you but Jesus and Him crucified", and 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Jesus only spoke out against the sins of those who claimed to be righteous while pointing out the sins of individuals, and who dealt out condemnation and rejection denying others access to the blessings of the temple because of their "sins". There were those who welcomed the unspoken profound condemnation of their sin who loved to live in His presence. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
ChildofChrist Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 I see no reason why homosexuals should not be hired, if they are qualified at the position that they are hired for!! I can understand if they are required to hired someone, anyone that is not qualified at that position. When I worked at a hospital in South Miami, FL, (years ago) and the issue of same sex relationships never appeared to be a problem. Just as if a person was married in the 'conventional' manner or widow/ed or single. Sexual relationships just does not enter in the equation. What matters is, are they dependable to show up when scheduled or stay over 15 minutes because a situation came up as the morning shift was coming on. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Wakan Tanka Kici Un ~~Child of Christ~~
GayatfootofCross Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 When I worked at a hospital in South Miami, FL, (years ago) and the issue of same sex relationships never appeared to be a problem. Just as if a person was married in the 'conventional' manner or widow/ed or single. Sexual relationships just does not enter in the equation. What matters is, are they dependable to show up when scheduled or stay over 15 minutes because a situation came up as the morning shift was coming on. For real ! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Lauralea Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) I think in a public hospital which is only trying to make people better physically it is of course appropriate to hire a variety of people. If we are in a facility whether school church or hospital that is Seventh day Adventist we should seek to hire those whose lives are in harmony with our message, message of the soon return of Jesus and of our duty to be ready to meet him without sin. Those who are knowingly and willfully continuing in flagrant open sin without any repentance or seeking to do better, are not those who should be first chosen to work in our facilities. Nor is it doing them any favors to do so. It is approving of their lifestyle, which God does not approve of. It is not preparing them to meet God. It is like telling someone who has cancer, they are fine. And I have had cancer, and the one thing worse to a cancer patient than having cancer and knowing it, is having cancer and not knowing it. We human beings are sinners. Life is about yielding ourselves to God and giving up our sins. Yes there are people who act like they have it all together and look down their noses at various sins. Yes we should avoid doing that. But if we have friends who are doing these things, we should be kind and pray for them, but we should not be so enamored of their friendship that we want to act like their lifestyle does not matter, because this will hurt them. Edited August 1, 2015 by Lauralea jackson and DreamWeaver 2 Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us.
Members phkrause Posted August 1, 2015 Members Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) I think in a public hospital which is only trying to make people better physically it is of course appropriate to hire a variety of people. If we are in a facility whether school church or hospital that is Seventh day Adventist we should seek to hire those whose lives are in harmony with our message, message of the soon return of Jesus and of our duty to be ready to meet him without sin. Those who are knowingly and willfully continuing in flagrant open sin without any repentance or seeking to do better, are not those who should be first chosen to work in our facilities. Nor is it doing them any favors to do so. It is approving of their lifestyle, which God does not approve of. It is not preparing them to meet God. It is like telling someone who has cancer, they are fine. And I have had cancer, and the one thing worse to a cancer patient than having cancer and knowing it, is having cancer and not knowing it. We human beings are sinners. Life is about yielding ourselves to God and giving up our sins. Yes there are people who act like they have it all together and look down their noses at various sins. Yes we should avoid doing that. But if we have friends who are doing these things, we should be kind and pray for them, but we should not be so enamored of their friendship that we want to act like their lifestyle does not matter, because this will hurt them. The problem I see with that, is, you'd not have enough people to hire!! Most Adventist Hospitals have more non Adventists working there than Adventists. Many are standing outside smoking up a storm at break time!! Oh and lets not forget about the foul language!! Edited August 1, 2015 by phkrause DreamWeaver 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Lauralea Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 The problem I see with that, is, you'd not have enough people to hire!! Most Adventist Hospitals have more non Adventists working there than Adventists. Many are standing outside smoking up a storm at break time!! Oh and lets not forget about the foul language!! I guess the few I have been to have not had that in front of the patients, and have been in parts of the country with lower rates of smoking. I know they have become corporately separate for liability reasons from the church itself- maybe this type of thing is the result. Very large institutions can be difficult to staff also. Speaking of the Battle Creek Sanitarium, Ellen White said, "There has not been a pure, fragrant, wholesome religious influence. " She also said it wasn't a good idea for Adventist young people to go there and take nurses' training because of secular worldly influences. Sounds like some parts of the problem remain although some are different. brotherly love 1 Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us.
GayatfootofCross Posted September 2, 2015 Posted September 2, 2015 somebody put this on my wall on fb made me life maybe the humor thread can't take it CoAspen and Tom Wetmore 2 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Live4Him Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Well considering some of our hospitals allow abortion procedures I think at least some of them would be the last place to look for bastions of standing for principle on the issue of homosexuality. But God does have sheep in other folds as I think can be seen in the KY county clerks case. Homosexuals were stoned in the old testament and we are for the most part all for hiring them for duties in church organizations? I don't hate them nor do I believe we should persecute or stone them but to say hiring them in roles in our organization after what scripture says is ludicrous. We need to realize that the Seventh day Adventist church is in full blown apostasy. We seem to think the shaking is something that is going to happen to our great great grand children 100 years from now when the church rejects God... The church is rejecting God in large part today. Nothing can be done about it, it was foretold and it will happen. All we can do is make sure our personal lives are right with Christ and try to help others to see Truth. At the time of the shaking all the nonsense will be shaken out of the church. All that will be left are those who love Jesus and are determined to follow Him no matter what kind of "bigotry" they are thrown in jail or persecuted for. Quote Thy word is a lamp to my feet
B/W Photodude Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 We need to realize that the Seventh day Adventist church is in full blown apostasy. When Elijah ran from Jezebel to the mountain, feeling like he was the only one left, God spoke to him in the still small voice. As i recall, it was in this conversation that God informed him that he had 7000 followers who had never bent the knee to false gods. True, there are unbelievable things going on in the church, much in the name of not hurting someone's emotions, things revealing a lack of faith, and distorting the very word of God, but God will preserve his church to the end. That part was foretold also. Keep the faith! Quote >>>Texts in blue type are quotes<<< ***************************************************************************** And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. --Shakespeare from Hamlet ***************************************************************************** Bill Liversidge Seminars The Emergent Church and the Invasion of Spiritualism
Live4Him Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Never said I felt like the only one And yes God's church will go to the end after the terrible shaking. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Thy word is a lamp to my feet
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