GayatfootofCross Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Brian Zahnd - " I've received a lot of positive feedback from my Sunday sermon: Perfect Theology Once we understand that Jesus is image of God, the exact imprint of God’s nature, and the only perfect theology, we can answer some important questions about God that in the past we humans have often gotten wrong. Does God send the storm? No. He calms the storm. Does God cause famines? No. He feeds the hungry. Does God inflict sickness? No. He heals the sick. Does God shun sinners? No. He welcomes them. Does God condemn the guilty? No. He saves them. Does God blame the afflicted? No. He shows them mercy. Does God resent human pleasure? No. He turns the water to wine. Does God take our side in our hostilities? No. He humanizes the other side. Does God kill his enemies? No. He forgives them. Does God return with revenge on his mind? No. He comes with words of peace. " http://wolc.com/watch--listen/sermon-archives/perfect-theology/ for audio of sermon 35 minutes long JoeMo and pnattmbtc 2 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 On July 8, 2015 by Brian Zahnd Sinners In the Hands of a Loving God Sinners In the Hands of a Loving GodBrian Zahnd Oh! Ephraim is my dear, dear son,My child in whom I take pleasure!Every time I mention his name,My heart bursts with longing for him!Everything in me cries out for him.Softly and tenderly I wait for him.–Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:20) The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours. –Jonathan Edwards, Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God Two pieces of literature. The prophetic poetry of Jeremiah and the revivalist preaching of Jonathan Edwards. I know them both well. First let’s look at Jeremiah. In this beautiful passage Jeremiah channels God’s love for Ephraim. Who is Ephraim? Ephraim is Israel in the 7th century BC. More importantly, Ephraim is Israel in its worst spiritual and moral condition. Ephraim is idolatrous, adulterous, backslidden, covenant-breaking, sinful Israel. But Ephraim is still the child of God and Jeremiah reveals God’s unconditional love for sinful Ephraim. Centuries ahead of the full revelation of God that will come with Jesus, Jeremiah reveals the heart of God toward sinners. Toward me. Toward you. At your worst, at your most sinful, at your furthest remove from God and his will, God’s attitude toward you remains one of unwavering love. Why? God is love. But many Christians struggle with a deeply embedded concept (theology) of an angry, vindictive, retributive god. Somewhere along the way they picked up a Sinner’s In the Hands of an Angry God paradigm. And it has left them deeply damaged.It’s a theological tragedy that Jonathan Edward’s sermon in 1741 has become probably the most famous sermon in American history. Most encounter this sermon at some point in school — not for its theological content, but for it’s use of descriptive language…and I grant you it does use descriptive language! The sinner is described as a loathsome spider dangled by a malicious deity over a raging fire. The sinner is told that in the eyes of God “you are ten thousand times as abominable as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours.” And on and on it goes. Let’s just say it’s not exactly the parable of the Prodigal Son. I cannot tell you how deeply I reject this distortion of God’s disposition toward sinners. It’s hard for me to imagine a worse misrepresentation of the God who is revealed in Jesus Christ. But I have a disclaimer to offer and a confession to make. First the disclaimer: I am well aware that Jonathan Edward’s most famous sermon is not representative of his whole life and ministry. I’ve read most of Edward’s major works and a few years ago read George Marsden’s Jonathan Edwards: A Life. I understand that Edwards is one of the great minds in American history. Reverend Edwards was also the pastor of a particularly contentious congregation. As a pastor I can understand being fed up enough that you feel like calling your congregation a bunch of loathsome insects. But still… Now for my confession: Whereas I never shared Edwards’ Calvinism, I did share Edwards penchant for “terror evangelism.” Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was particularly influential in my early days of preaching. In fact, I created my own hand produced copy of the sermon. (This was back in the days when cut and paste was done with scissors and glue.) Here are a couple of pictures of my personal copy of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (note the handwritten cover and the highlighted interior): Yes, I know Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God well. I had portions of it memorized. It was part of my preacher’s arsenal. But long ago I came to regard evangelism by terrorism as immature, manipulative, and unfaithful to the God revealed in Christ. Today I preach Sinners In the Hands of a Loving God. At some point we have to decide which picture of God we will embrace and project. How do we go about choosing? Both pictures can be drawn from the Bible. We do it by asking which picture looks like Jesus. Every other vision of God — from whatever source — is subordinate to the revelation of God we find in Christ. This is why the Apostle John will say no one has ever seen God until they see him revealed in the Word made flesh: Jesus Christ (see John 1:18) Does the sadistic monster in the “Angry God” sermon look like Jesus? Of course, not. So we are free to reject it. We must reject it! But does this mean the wrath of God doesn’t exist. No, of course not. The wrath of God exists. But there are important clues, even in the Old Testament, to how we can better understand the wrath of God. For example consider Psalm 7:11–16… God is a righteous judge;God sits in judgment every day.If they will not repent, God will whet his sword;he will bend his bow and make it ready.He has prepared his weapons of death;he makes his arrows shafts of fire. These three verses make it sound like God directly visits retribution upon sinners. But look at the next three verses… Look at those who are in labor with wickedness,who conceive evil, and give birth to a lie.They dig a pit and make it deepand fall into the hole they have made.Their malice turns back upon their own head;their violence falls on their own scalp. The psalmist shows that what we might think of as God’s whetted sword is in reality the pit of self-inflicted punishment that we dig with our own hands. Sin has consequences. We dig a pit of sin…and eventually we fall in. We act in malice…and eventually it returns to haunt us. We employ violence…and eventually it boomerangs back on us. We can call this the wrath of God. The Bible does. But it should not cause us to think that the Father of Jesus is the vindictive and retributive god of Edward’s infamous sermon. Yes, sin has consequences, and sometimes they are truly horrible consequences. But the deeper truth is that we are more punished by our sins than for our sins. Jesus has made this known to us. Jesus tells us that the Father is kind and merciful…even to the evil and ungrateful. (see Luke 6:35–36) What I want to tell you is that God’s attitude (spirit) toward you is one of unwavering, unconditional, fatherly/motherly love. You have nothing to fear from God. Let the fear of God be understood as the wisdom which recognizes that reality as God has created it has consequences. But the truth that we live in a consequential universe with a moral arc, does not mean that God views sinners as loathsome spiders. He does not. God looks with unconditional love upon all his sons and daughters…even his prodigal sons and daughters. This is good news. This is the gospel. Let’s preach it. BZ (The artwork is a detail from Rembrandt’s Return of the Prodigal Son, c. 1665.) Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
pnattmbtc Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) How do we go about choosing? Both pictures can be drawn from the Bible. We do it by asking which picture looks like Jesus. Every other vision of God — from whatever source — is subordinate to the revelation of God we find in Christ. This is why the Apostle John will say no one has ever seen God until they see him revealed in the Word made flesh: Jesus Christ (see John 1:18) Amen! We can handle all theological questions this way. All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. (8T 286) Edited July 8, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 I really liked this thread, so I'm making a random post to see if it gets some traction. I read something recently like instead of a warrior God clothed in the blood of His enemies, Jesus presented a God clothed in His own blood shed for His enemies. The idea of sinners in the hands of a loving God vs. sinners in the hands of an angry God reminded me of this. JoeMo 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
BobRyan Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Brian Zahnd - " I've received a lot of positive feedback from my Sunday sermon: Perfect Theology Once we understand that Jesus is image of God, the exact imprint of God’s nature, and the only perfect theology, we can answer some important questions about God that in the past we humans have often gotten wrong. Does God send the storm? No. He calms the storm. Does God cause famines? No. He feeds the hungry. Does God inflict sickness? No. He heals the sick. Does God shun sinners? No. He welcomes them. Does God condemn the guilty? No. He saves them. Does God blame the afflicted? No. He shows them mercy. Does God resent human pleasure? No. He turns the water to wine. Does God take our side in our hostilities? No. He humanizes the other side. Does God kill his enemies? No. He forgives them. Does God return with revenge on his mind? No. He comes with words of peace. " 1 Thess 5:1-4 "When they say - Peace and Safety - then sudden destruction" 2Peter 3 says "it escapes their notice" that certain things happened by the Word of God in the past and that certain things are predicted to happen in the future. Naomi and DreamWeaver 2 Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
GayatfootofCross Posted July 11, 2015 Author Posted July 11, 2015 1 Thess 5:1-4 "When they say - Peace and Safety - then sudden destruction" 2Peter 3 says "it escapes their notice" that certain things happened by the Word of God in the past and that certain things are predicted to happen in the future. There is only one place where Peace and Safety found. or I should say Peace and Safety is found in one Person. JESUS! That is all about this Thread. Thank you BobRyan! GBU! The Most Beautiful Being in the Universe Character lures us. Reading of God without the True Pic of HIM (Jesus Life and Death and Ressurection) in our perceptions makes us run away in fear. In Jesus we see how God really thinks of us. Makes us run to HIM! Wow Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
BobRyan Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Jesus is the only help for the sinner - the only hope of salvation. Because of Christ we can come boldly before the throne of Grace to seek help in time of need. Heb 4 Jesus also said that "all judgment has been turned over to the Son" John 5:22 Christ said "think not that I have come to bring peace, I have not come to bring peace but a sword" - Matt 10. "You stand only by your faith, do not be proud but fear - for if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you" Rom 11 The "war" is because sin and righteousness are at war with each other and the heart devoted to sin is at war with God Rom 8:5-8 by contrast to the saints. ========================================================================== The gospel is the "Gospel of peace" Eph 6 it brings peace and the first of 3 gifts of the Spirit "love, joy, peace" Gal 5. "Peace I leave unto you, My peace i give unto you" John 14 "Great peace have those who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 DreamWeaver 1 Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
GayatfootofCross Posted July 12, 2015 Author Posted July 12, 2015 praise GOD! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
DreamWeaver Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Does God cause famines? Yes. When people are being bad. - (Leviticus 26:18 - 20) Does God inflict sickness? He will during one of the seven last plagues. - (Revelation 16:1 - 2) Does God shun sinners? No. But you have to get it together before you die or before Jesus returns. - (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Does God condemn the guilty? No. He saves them. But if they don't want to be good then He lets them go their own way unless they turn back to Him. - (Hebrews 10:26) Does God resent human pleasure? No. But liquors and intoxicating drinks are off the menu. So are various other "fun" sins. There's good pleasure and bad pleasure. - (Proverbs 14:12) Does God kill his enemies? No. He forgives them. But He also searches the heart and knows the true intentions of people. Satan is definitely someone who is going to get his comeuppance some day. - True, but also... (Revelation 19:19 - 21) Nahum 1:3 sums it up. This preacher, and whomever also blindly accepts this junk food religion, is on a fast track to someday accepting the Mark. According to this guy, the plagues and the lake of fire just don't seem to exist. I'm not saying that God is all aggressive n' stuff. But you can take this post how you want to. At the end though, its up to each individual to really understand how God can still BE Love and at the same time be able to convict, discipline and sometimes even punish people when necessary. Edited July 12, 2015 by DreamWeaver Quote
DreamWeaver Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 Does God cause famines? Yes. When people are being bad. - (Leviticus 26:18 - 20) Does God inflict sickness? He will during one of the seven last plagues. - (Revelation 16:1 - 2) Does God shun sinners? No. But you have to get it together before you die or before Jesus returns. - (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Does God condemn the guilty? No. He saves them. But if they don't want to be good then He lets them go their own way unless they turn back to Him. - (Hebrews 10:26) Does God resent human pleasure? No. But liquors and intoxicating drinks are off the menu. So are various other "fun" sins. There's good pleasure and bad pleasure. - (Proverbs 14:12) Does God kill his enemies? No. He forgives them. But He also searches the heart and knows the true intentions of people. Satan is definitely someone who is going to get his comeuppance some day. - (Revelation 19:19 - 21) Nahum 1:3 sums it up. This preacher, and whomever also blindly accepts this junk food religion, is on a fast track to someday accepting the Mark. According to this guy, the plagues and the lake of fire just don't seem to exist. I'm not saying that God is all aggressive n' stuff. But you can take this post how you want to. At the end though, its up to each individual to really understand how God can still BE Love and at the same time be able to convict, discipline and sometimes even punish people when necessary. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 I think you'd probably appreciate this web page and its' links, especially the one on cosmic conflict, am pdf download. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
DreamWeaver Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 Oooo! Which links?? Where? Where? Also, did Cosmic Conflict 2 come out already? And what is this "am pdf download" you speak of? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 How one views sin ties into this, but I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg. That is, if one views sin as something bad which must be punished, then God's actions will be viewed in this light. On the other hand, if one views sin as something which is destructive in and of itself, that will also color how one views God's actions. The chicken and egg comment is directed towards the idea that it may be the other way around, that how we view God views how we view sin. Or maybe it's both. DreamWeaver 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Does God cause famines? Yes. When people are being bad. - (Leviticus 26:18 - 20) Does God inflict sickness? He will during one of the seven last plagues. - (Revelation 16:1 - 2) Does God shun sinners? No. But you have to get it together before you die or before Jesus returns. - (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Does God condemn the guilty? No. He saves them. But if they don't want to be good then He lets them go their own way unless they turn back to Him. - (Hebrews 10:26) Does God resent human pleasure? No. But liquors and intoxicating drinks are off the menu. So are various other "fun" sins. There's good pleasure and bad pleasure. - (Proverbs 14:12) Does God kill his enemies? No. He forgives them. But He also searches the heart and knows the true intentions of people. Satan is definitely someone who is going to get his comeuppance some day. - True, but also... (Revelation 19:19 - 21) Nahum 1:3 sums it up. This preacher, and whomever also blindly accepts this junk food religion, is on a fast track to someday accepting the Mark. According to this guy, the plagues and the lake of fire just don't seem to exist. I'm not saying that God is all aggressive n' stuff. But you can take this post how you want to. At the end though, its up to each individual to really understand how God can still BE Love and at the same time be able to convict, discipline and sometimes even punish people when necessary. Hey there, DW! I don't believe like you do on the portions of your post that I underlined above. I'm not saying you're wrong; just saying that I believe differently. I don't believe that God does causes famines when people are being bad. I believe that God allows satan to cause famines when entire nations are rebelling against Him. I don't believe that it is our responsibility to "get it together" - at least by our own efforts. Eternal life is a gift - meaning it is undeserved and unmerited. We can never "earn it. We are all as filthy rags. Jesus did a good enough job on the cross to save us - He doesn't need our help. Our job is to trust the Holy Spirit's grace and power to get us together. We are to trust in that power and not resist it. The Bible does not condemn use of alcoholic beverages. It condemns habitual overuse of them (i.e., being a drunk). Jesus made gallons of wine at Cana for people who had already been drinking for 3 days. Paul advises Timothy to drink a little red wine to calm his stomach. Jesus accepted wine mixed with gall when He was on the cross dying (He did NOT accept it prior to being crucified). Messages that inspire fear and guilt are NOT from God - they are from the evil one. I think one of the reasons people think God is such a taskmaster is because He says He creates good and evil. IMO this is just God taking responsibility for creating the potential for evil by creating beings with a free will (i.e., beings that are not programmed or compelled to obey Him.) Being the loving, honorable and omnipotent Father that He is, He sent is own Son to suffer the consequences of our sins rather than see all of us suffer. God is SOOOO good! Blessings to you DW. I hope you stick around. We need fresh ideas here from a younger generation.. Edited July 13, 2015 by JoeMo Quote
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