Shame

[Gail]

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. 

This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation.

Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

[GayatfootofCross]

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. 

This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation.

Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

I will follow this with great interest.

Edited July 12, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[DreamWeaver]

L.O.L.

(Disclaimer: this post is not directed at anyone in particular.)

 

Gail, this is really an interesting subject. But this is also a very loaded subject indeed...

I'm gonna try to come at this from a different angle. Its just too easy and simplistic to say "guilt is wrong"!

I think guilt is part of the reason we come to cross in the first place because we need to feel some sort of conviction for what we've done to nail Jesus to the cross with our sins. Otherwise we're numb to what it actually took for Him to give us a shot to get to Heaven. But I think its one thing to feel honestly bad about your past and say, "I'm so sorry God, I have wronged you. I'm sorry, self. I see how this stuff that I'm doing is not healthy or good. And I'm sorry neighbor, I haven't been nice to you." But its another thing entirely to focus only on yourself and cry about how God isn't on-board with your sinful behavior and say stuff like: "WAAAHHHH, it isn't fair! What's so wrong about wearing jewelry?? Its not like I'm hurting anyone! Besides, God made the rubies so I can put them in my ears too! Why else would He make them the same color as my gorgeous shoes? The chances of these holes in my ears actually harming me or anyone else are 7/10000000000! ... This is unfair, I can't help it that fashion is my life! God must hate me because I'm beautiful. "

One form of guilt is based on looking without one's self and seeing what the real issue is. The other form of guilt is ALL ABOUT ONE'S SELF and its less about guilt and more about self pity and a desire to desperately find sympathy from others so they can cry together and form an army against God. Its the same trick Satan pulled in Heaven before he got kicked out. Nothing knew. Same spirit.

As for the suicide part, I feel bad for those who contemplate suicide. I honestly do. Its a terrible place to be in emotionally and mentally and I'm sure in many cases its the last place ever that they'd like to be in. But suicide seems to always be a soft spot for many people to feel like no one has a right to talk about a person or a situation. I think suicide should not be a shield that people hide behind and threaten to do just so you can shut up or give them what they want. To some twisted and manipulative folks, suicide is a tool. Sometimes people decide to kill themselves and its not a LICK of your fault. Some people just romantically hate themselves and think that if they feel sorry for themselves enough that the world will magically transform for them.

Your point about guilt might be a serious point to explore when it comes to past sins that people can't erase because it already happened. Like if someone once was a porn star and then they changed their life and everyone still gave them problems about it. I feel bad for those people. But if you're still acting a fool and you're committing the same sin everyday of your life with no remorse and only wish to live in a world where you can feel shameless and comfortable to sin, that's a whooooole 'nother problem, BAY-BEE! The problem lies within you. And that's why sometimes people can have everything they want and STILL seek more pity because deep down some people know what they're doing is wrong wrong wrong, and every drop of human encouragement and acceptance in the world ain't gonna take that itty bitty ounce of "I know I'm wrong" away.

That's why some people will sin and ask: "Tim, if someone was mean to you for a really long time and kept calling you names for years...wouldn't you choke them out too?" The reason they ask such questions sometimes is to find company to nod their head in approval and say: "Of course I would! Jerks like that deserve to get their neck rung!" The approval subsides the still small voice in their head whispering, "Its not right to choke people no matter how angry you get. Choking people is bad." That way they won't have to battle the guilt day and night in their ever working brains that never sleep.

 

 

 

*Places a target on my chest and head. Then sighs.*

Alright, I'm ready everyone. I expect to be shot down now because everyone is going to insta-assume I'm some heartless beast who doesn't care about people who commit suicide. And I'll also bet people will accuse me for only talking about sexual sins when I'm talking about all sins. Just aim for the targets so my death can be quick on this thread. 

Edited July 12, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think shame is more of a concern in suicidal ideation than guilt.  Guilt comes with the feeling of having done something one knows is wrong... (there's also false guilt, where someone feels, through cultural or religious mores, that they've done something wrong, when, in fact, they haven't).  Shame, OTOH, not only involves a behavior, but includes an all-encompassing feeling of worthlessness and goes into self-denigration.  A person feeling shame is focused much on how s/he thinks others are viewing him/her.

While guilt evokes a sense of wanting to make reparations, shame makes a person hide under a rock and avoid other people and what they might think.  The person feels powerless.  Exposed.  And diminished in the estimation of others.

I can see the value of guilt.  But I sure as heck do not see any redeeming qualities in feeling shame, or in shaming someone else.  

[DreamWeaver]

Is "suicidal ideation" the only result of shame/guilt?

I think that sometimes shame can transform a person into becoming vengeful and hateful towards others because they're always feeling defensive.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

Forgive me Gail for not adding a thumbs up to your post.

⁶ Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

⁷ Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:

Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.
⁸ Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.^{....Psalms 51}

^{I recognize the importance of not berating anyone. However would God ever be able to reveal Himself as a cure if the light of the Word did not reveal our true condition? The condition of the last church in history is clearly outlined in the book of Revelation.}

15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,^...18So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.^.Revelation 3

^{OTOH, once one has made it clear the message of the Word is unappreciated, we do have specific instructions how to carry on future action.}         

11“Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”^{.....Mark 6}

 

^{God is Love!  Jesus saves!}

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Naomi]

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. 

This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation.

Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

Many of us were raised, and controlled by, guilt.  Some much more than others. (Boy could I tell you some stories )  WE have two choices:  Get over it and get on with life or let it drag us down to a suicidal, antisocial, in general miserable person.  Ultimately it is up to us to do the hard work.  How we cope with it is also has to do with understanding compromises, and just what we can learn to live with.

There is an old song "Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow lingers on" we can't change yesterday.  The Reverent Mr Black, says "You gotta walk that lonesome road, you gotta walk it by yourself.  Ain't no body else gonna walk it for you ..."  It sounds cold, but the longer we live the farther removed we  become from the times of injury and life decisions.  We can learn to live in peace and harmony with ourselves, with God and the Universe.

In Christ we become a new person.  In Christ all of our sins are forgiven and if we do not repeat them or continue to repeat and go back and sincerely try again, we will be one day be free.  Yes, there are things in our past that most of us would not want to be a matter of public knowledge.  We all have a history, and at times it is not a pretty picture.  If it is forgiven and not repeated then why put it out there for scrutiny?  My history is my history, your history is yours.  I can't walk in your shoes anymore than you can walk in mine. 

I find that the closer I come to the Cross the less concerned about who knows about what I did as a teenager or adult.  God knows, it's done ... forgiven ... zip, zap .. gone.  And, my friends that is what I pray for you.  You only need God's approval, and He loves you just as you are. 

[GayatfootofCross]

You can feel bad and even chastise yourself for moments/acts of sin and evil.

But to chastise and feel bad about who you are?

Every moment?

One main reason why there is such a thing as Gay Pride.

Can't shake alone in fear and shame anymore as people.

We have God given Dignity and Respect now.

No more shame.

 

If the Church was more welcoming and  transparent and supportive a long long time ago with it's own self and others..

We wouldn't of need Gay Pride.

 

[Gail]

Okay, so what I'm picking up is that there is an internal source to shame and an external source. The internal part is what we bring to God and work out with Him.

The external part is the input from others that humiliate, their reactions and attitudes. They might be angry, for example, that you view porn or repulsed that you have an unsightly birthmark on your face. You could have been born female in a certain culture.

Is shame imposed from others ever justified? If it is, for how long? 

[DreamWeaver]

 

Is shame imposed from others ever justified? If it is, for how long? 

I'm not sure that public shame is justified. I'm on the side that its not called for...unless someone is running around naked. Then I'd hope folks around me would cover their eyes and shout: "PUT ON SOME CLOTHES, FOOL!" 

I think I would leave that up to the individual to make themselves look dumb or or not. But I would not personally comment unless I felt violated.

As for privately imposed shame or guilt from others, I think that's fine and should be done when deserved. Like when you have to discipline a child or pull someone aside to tell them: "I know you took that teddy bear from the build-a-bear without buying it. And while I understand you don't have money, stealing is not a good path to go down, kid." I think "shame" like that should be done when necessary and should be done as gently as possible or firmly (within reason). And it should be done for a short time until they reveal themselves to be unconcerned about human consequences or Godly consequences. Then, when you can no longer say any more without them plugging their ears, you should pray for them and leave it up to God.

That's the best I think I can imagine shame imposed from others can do.

[debbym]

if you have been shamed into what is acceptable to those around you.  conditioned and approved this pattern persists and provides a very healthy social source to  inhibit bad  unhealthy behaviors like exhibitionism. 

Unfortunately people who are disabled or mentally ill, or another race, or even social strata, and countless other individuals or groups have been socially schooled this way, in painful and damaging ways. 

social activists have worked hard to change lots of things and they have,and  progress has been made, you just cannot legislate prejudice and bigotry away.