The Kingdom of Iron and Clay, or Iron and Concrete?

[Sojourner]

Daniel 2:42 "As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle"

From Wikipedia, 

"The Romans used concrete extensively from 300 BC to 476 AD, a span of more than seven hundred years.^[5] During the Roman Empire, Roman concrete (or opus caementicium) was made from quicklime,pozzolana and an aggregate of pumice. Its widespread use in many Roman structures, a key event in the history of architecture termed the Roman Architectural Revolution, freed Roman construction from the restrictions of stone and brick material and allowed for revolutionary new designs in terms of both structural complexity and dimension.^[11] After the Roman Empire, the use of burned lime and pozzolana was greatly reduced until the technique was all but forgotten between 500 AD and the 1300s. Between the 1300s until the mid-1700s, the use of cement gradually returned. The Canal du Midi was built using concrete in 1670,^[16] and there are concrete structures in Finland that date from the 16th century.^{[citation needed]"}

The question that I would like to raise to the group here is if the material described as "Clay" in Daniel 2:42 could be considered to be consistent with a description of Concrete? 

It seems to me that most modern buildings I see going up are concrete slab, tilt concrete panel and iron. I can see perhaps a parallel that the concrete is the base and the iron could be the structure built on the concrete. It seems to me that a description that did say, Iron and Concrete would be very accurate of our modern age, yet is that what the Bible is saying, or does it mean specifically fired clay? 

As an aside, white clay can often be used in concrete renders and texture coatings & paints as a filling / extender agent. 

Thoughts? 

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by Sojourner

[Bravus]

You're an Aussie, so there's a better chance this reference will mean something to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I83nc2IlSKg

[Bravus]

(I'll leave your actual question for the theologians)

[Kevin H]

In a sense you can use that to apply. However there are deeper implications. In the Bible clay is what God usually forms things out of. A symbol of the church. In Daniel 2, as well as predicting the partially weak and partially strong elements among the people and varying amounts of freedom, it also indicated that the clay which should be in God's hands has chosen to form itself to the iron, the political powers. Thus an application of the feet of iron and clay is a church state of the Holy Roman empire. The toes of iron and clay the deadly wound where the nations are independent. And that while it will not work out, there will be an attempt for the toes to join together (notice the text does not say that they would not appear to have joined. Thus there is room in the text for an apparent short lived union where it appears that the toes succeeded in uniting. But it will end in chaos.)

[brotherly love]

In a sense you can use that to apply. However there are deeper implications. In the Bible clay is what God usually forms things out of. A symbol of the church. In Daniel 2, as well as predicting the partially weak and partially strong elements among the people and varying amounts of freedom, it also indicated that the clay which should be in God's hands has chosen to form itself to the iron, the political powers. Thus an application of the feet of iron and clay is a church state of the Holy Roman empire. The toes of iron and clay the deadly wound where the nations are independent. And that while it will not work out, there will be an attempt for the toes to join together (notice the text does not say that they would not appear to have joined. Thus there is room in the text for an apparent short lived union where it appears that the toes succeeded in uniting. But it will end in chaos.)

You dont have to go outside of the book of Daniel other than for a few references to the Law of Moses. The feet of Iron and clay that do not mix is explained in the book of Daniel itself.

first of all, the four kingdoms are those that would rule over covenant Israel in succession in their exile and occupation. The last one would be Greek Hellenist rulers. Alexander was interested in spreading Greek Hellenism. They established Greek colonies around the empire to accomplish this. For example, the New Testament mentions the Decapolis-these were 10 Greek colonies set up to spread Greek culture and religion.

Greece split into 4 Greek Empires, and only two of these Empires ruled Covenant Israel. Greek Egypt (Ptolemy)and Greek Syria (Seleucus)

In Daniel 2 the vision shows they will not mix.

⁴³ As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so will they mix with one another in marriage,^[c] but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

A more mechanical translation

Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

In Daniel 11 we see this succession highlighted

“Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. ³ Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. ⁴ After he has arisen, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others

Daniel 11 shows the last two kingdoms that would rule Covenant Israel.

3.Persia

4.Greece

In this split up Greek Empire-they are still Greek rulers imposing Greek culture and religion.

There were many attempts to unite the king of the North and south by marriage-but it failed

Daniel 11

⁶ After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power^[a] will not last. In those days she will be betrayed, together with her royal escort and her father^[b] and the one who supported her. ⁷ “One from her family line will arise to take her place. He will attack the forces of the king of the North and enter his fortress; he will fight against them and be victorious.

and later...

¹⁷ He will determine to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will make an alliance with the king of the South. And he will give him a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom, but his plans^[c] will not succeed or help him.

To make this about a Holy roman Empire has some real world problems with communicating the powerful prophesy of Jesus in the book of daniel ...let me explain.

The messianic figure would only come after the fourth beast is destroyed. Note that the Messianic figure we now recognize as Jesus is ascending to Heaven after the fourth beast is destroyed in chapter 7. He is not ascending. The so-called blurry events of Daniel 11:45 plus predict these events of the end of the fourth beast, and the coming of the roman empire. If Rome is the fourth beast, then Jesus has not come yet as the Messianic figure of Daniel 7 comes after the fourth beast. Most claim the 70 weeks is the prophesy of Jesus, but the New Testament makes no such claim, or quotes it as fulfilled in any part of Jesus's earthly sojourn, but it does quote Daniel 7:13-14.

Jesus came right on time as predicted.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings “brotherly love”, 

You dont have to go outside of the book of Daniel other than for a few references to the Law of Moses. The feet of Iron and clay that do not mix is explained in the book of Daniel itself.

first of all, the four kingdoms are those that would rule over covenant Israel in succession in their exile and occupation. The last one would be Greek Hellenist rulers. Alexander was interested in spreading Greek Hellenism. They established Greek colonies around the empire to accomplish this. For example, the New Testament mentions the Decapolis-these were 10 Greek colonies set up to spread Greek culture and religion.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Roman Empire also ruled over the Jews while they were in the Holy Land. Thus the four metals of Daniel 2 and the four beasts of Daniel 7 are (Assyria) – Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Yes the early part of Daniel 11 describes aspects of the north and south portions of the Grecian empire, but Daniel 11:40-45 is still future.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by TrevorL

[brotherly love]

Greetings “brotherly love”, 

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Roman Empire also ruled over the Jews while they were in the Holy Land. Thus the four metals of Daniel 2 and the four beasts of Daniel 7 are (Assyria) – Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Yes the early part of Daniel 11 describes aspects of the north and south portions of the Grecian empire, but Daniel 11:40-45 is still future.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

 

i am not ignoring the roman empire because Israel regained the kingdom under the Hasmonian Kingdom. They went from a tiny city-state under foreign control to regaining much of their land lost before the Babylonian exile. Then the Romans came

If Rome is a fourth beast, then Jesus has not come yet-the passage of Daniel 7 clearly shows that Jesus ascends to Heaven after the 4th beast is destroyed. daniel 11:40-45 describes the downfall of the king of the north and south

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. ¹² (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,^[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by brotherly love

[JoeMo]

Rome cannot be the 4th beast.  All three previous kingdoms ruled over Persia (Iran),  Saudi-Arabia, Iraq, and Tukey.  Rome may have ruled Israel; but they never ruled the majority of Arab lands, nor did the Babylonians, Medo-Persians, or Greeks ever rule Europe, like Rome did.  IMO, when the Bible refers to Greece and Persia, it is referring to the kingdoms - not the specific country.  For example, the British Empire was spread all over the world - not just in Great Britain.  So it was with Greece and Persia - the prophecies were not about the specific country as much as they were about the kingdoms of  Babylon, Persia, and Greece - the areas that these countries ruled over.

Look at a map of the region now occupied by Islam, and compare it to the regions once ruled by Greece or Persia.  Notice any similarities?

[8thdaypriest]

I cannot personally get around Daniel 7:11-12.  AFTER the 4th terrible Beast with it's "little horn" is "slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame" THE REST OF THE BEASTS, are still there.  Their "dominion" was taken away, but "their lives were prolonged" (for a season and a time) NOT "given to the burning flame".  The kingdoms of the LION, BEAR, and LEOPARD LIKE beasts are still around AFTER the 4th one is burned up.  Those beasts represent kingdoms contemporary with the 4th beast, not former kingdoms.  

[brotherly love]

I cannot personally get around Daniel 7:11-12.  AFTER the 4th terrible Beast with it's "little horn" is "slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame" THE REST OF THE BEASTS, are still there.  Their "dominion" was taken away, but "their lives were prolonged" (for a season and a time) NOT "given to the burning flame".  The kingdoms of the LION, BEAR, and LEOPARD LIKE beasts are still around AFTER the 4th one is burned up.  Those beasts represent kingdoms contemporary with the 4th beast, not former kingdoms.  

JoeMoe nailed it when he said that Rome could not be the fourth beast because it never conquered the Babylonian, Mede and Persian kingdoms and peoples. It never made it into their territory

There is a literary device at play here-The Hebrew contrast. The complete destruction of the fourth beast would be contrasted with the contiinuity of the peoples of the other 3 beasts. This is talking about the conquering of each beast in succession. So the second beast conquered the lands, peoples and cultures of the first beast. The third beast conquered the lands, peoples and cultures of the second beast. The fourth beast conquered the lands, peoples and cultures of the third beast. 

Although there was a change in government and a capital with each beast, they all still ruled the covenant people of Israel. They had their authority removed, but they still ruled for a time.

The situation looked bleak for the captives in the time of Daniel, but the Covenant kingdom of Israel would regain their kingdom and outlive the four kingdoms that would rule them.

This would not fit with Islam. Plus, Jesus would have to ascend to the throne in the first Advent after the time of Islam

Edited July 28, 2015 by brotherly love

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “brotherly love”, and greetings JoeMo and 8thdaypriest,

Not dealing directly with all that each of you has stated, could you please consider Daniel 2 first which is the subject of this thread. The image describes four successive metals, gold, silver, brass and iron. Daniel identifies the gold as being Babylon with Nebuchadnezzar stated as synonymous with that kingdom. The silver is to be the kingdom that was to supersede Babylon, and the events of Daniel 5 reveal the change from Babylon to Darius the Mede, and Cyrus the Persian soon shared this kingdom, so this is usually called the Medo-Persian kingdom. Daniel 8 reveals the overthrow of the Medo-Persian kingdom by Alexander the Great who thus together with his successors is the third kingdom of brass.

I do not know why you have difficulty identifying the fourth kingdom as Rome, as Rome did not mainly conquer the Grecian, but absorbed and dominated it, and thus became the fourth kingdom.

Now each of these four kingdoms have one thing in common, they ruled over Judah, thus replacing the former Kingdom of Judah, and the throne of David, and hence Kingdom of God with the kingdoms of men. The fourth kingdom, Rome, has had a long history, but the latter day manifestation will be a combination of diverse kingdoms represented by the iron and clay.

It is in this particular era, which I believe is the present day, that Jesus is to return to establish his kingdom on the earth for 1000 years.
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Thus the image of Daniel 2 and the four beasts of Daniel 7 represent the kingdoms of men from Babylon till the present era, and these are soon to be replaced by the Kingdom of God. This period of domination is otherwise known as the times of the Gentiles.

Thus Daniel 2 forms the framework for the whole book of Daniel. To emphasise one detail in Daniel 7 to distort this framework is a misreading of Daniel 2.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JoeMo]

Another reason why Rome couldn't be the 4th Kingdom:

"Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. ⁸ The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction." (Rev. 17:7-8)

In John's day, the kingdom in charge was Rome.  Yet this scripture says the beast kingdom did not exist in John's day.  If the beast kingdom is a kingdom that "was" prior to John's day, that leaves Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.  If Revelation is truly tied to Daniel, then the only possibilities are Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. 

 

Bro, I like your logic, but their can be dual applications (or an application and a fulfillment) of prophecy. Isreal never became a sovreign kingdom (or country) again after the Babylonian captivity until 1948.  It was governed by the other kingdoms until it was totally demolished and dispersed by Rome in 70 AD. If you are talking about Israel becoming a sovreign nation again in 1948, indeed they did; but have they yet turned to God or their Messiah? NO!  Will God have to try them again before they get it? It seems to be so.  Islam could very well be the sword this time, just like Babylon or Rome has been the sword in previous eras.  Doesn't have to be Islam; there is still an outside chance some other geo-political religious power could do the job; but my money is on Islam.  However, the Messiah will save a remnant of the nation of Israel (12,000 from each tribe, I believe); and the Kingdom of spiritual Israel (that means us - the multitude) will ultimately be restored to full glory and will outlive every other kingdom that ever was or will be!

[8thdaypriest]

When the stone hits the feet of the image, Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors.  This means that the gold, silver, and brass EXIST at the same time as the clay/iron.  The WHOLE IMAGE exists - at the time the stone hits.  

This tells me the prophecy could be a duel prophecy.  Yes - it represented the successive rulers/persecutors over Judea/Israel.  But it can also represent the state of the entire world, at the very END.  Babylon is the HEAD of the image.  Does not Babylon exist at the END?  The angels message is "Babylon is fallen".  That means Babylon must exist - in some form - in the very last days.  If Babylon exists, then why not also the silver kingdom, the brass kingdom, the iron kingdom, and the mixed kingdoms - at least in some form ?   

 

[brotherly love]

 

It is in this particular era, which I believe is the present day, that Jesus is to return to establish his kingdom on the earth for 1000 years.
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Thus the image of Daniel 2 and the four beasts of Daniel 7 represent the kingdoms of men from Babylon till the present era, and these are soon to be replaced by the Kingdom of God. This period of domination is otherwise known as the times of the Gentiles.

Thus Daniel 2 forms the framework for the whole book of Daniel. To emphasise one detail in Daniel 7 to distort this framework is a misreading of Daniel 2.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

The problem here is you are trying to fit this directly about yourself-it was not written to you, it was written for you.

The faithful of covenant Israel were in exile, and their reality was bleak. God was showing them that He is in control, He put them into exile, and He would restore them back to the Kingdom. This is what happened, covenant Israel became a kingdom again, and outlasted the four kingdoms that ruled them in exile, and under foreign control in a tiny city-state in which they were allowed to return.

God fulfilled His promises! God set up a kingdom in that time that would last forever-from exilehood to a kingdomhood. Jesus came at the precise time to gather the faithful together under Him as the Davidic king, and it got better, Israel went worldwide, never to be destroyed or exiled again.

As for your Isaiah prophesy, it also came true. Mt. Zion was raised up and went to the whole world. The problem here is again it was written to Israelites, and it gives a description that would be understandable to a Israelite. Irt uses terms in the covenant to communicate realities. All of this does not have to come true at the same time, all is true, but we are waiting for the final consummation

[brotherly love]

Another reason why Rome couldn't be the 4th Kingdom:

"Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. ⁸ The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction." (Rev. 17:7-8)

In John's day, the kingdom in charge was Rome.  Yet this scripture says the beast kingdom did not exist in John's day.  If the beast kingdom is a kingdom that "was" prior to John's day, that leaves Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.  If Revelation is truly tied to Daniel, then the only possibilities are Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. 

 

Bro, I like your logic, but their can be dual applications (or an application and a fulfillment) of prophecy. Isreal never became a sovreign kingdom (or country) again after the Babylonian captivity until 1948.  It was governed by the other kingdoms until it was totally demolished and dispersed by Rome in 70 AD. If you are talking about Israel becoming a sovreign nation again in 1948, indeed they did; but have they yet turned to God or their Messiah? NO!  Will God have to try them again before they get it? It seems to be so.  Islam could very well be the sword this time, just like Babylon or Rome has been the sword in previous eras.  Doesn't have to be Islam; there is still an outside chance some other geo-political religious power could do the job; but my money is on Islam.  However, the Messiah will save a remnant of the nation of Israel (12,000 from each tribe, I believe); and the Kingdom of spiritual Israel (that means us - the multitude) will ultimately be restored to full glory and will outlive every other kingdom that ever was or will be!

I am not proposing a dual prophesy. The kingdom of covenant Israel did become a kingdom for a brief time under the Hasmoneans. This is called the Hasmonean dynasty. Before this they were allowed to settle in a tiny area around Jerusalem by Persia, they were not allowed a king, and had no control over their affairs. To put it into perspective they could not even honor simple land entitlements according to clanhood-Boaz and Ruth could not have happened. They were a considered part of a satrap of an Empire.

The hasmoneans made the Jerusalem into a country that was larger than modern Israel, a kinghood, and minted their own coins as a kingdom.

Again, you may place your lavender chips on Islam as the fourth beast, but this would mean Jesus would have come in the first advent and ascended into the Ancient of days in the time after Islam

[JoeMo]

I am not proposing a dual prophesy. The kingdom of covenant Israel did become a kingdom for a brief time under the Hasmoneans. This is called the Hasmonean dynasty. Before this they were allowed to settle in a tiny area around Jerusalem by Persia, they were not allowed a king, and had no control over their affairs. To put it into perspective they could not even honor simple land entitlements according to clanhood-Boaz and Ruth could not have happened. They were a considered part of a satrap of an Empire.

The hasmoneans made the Jerusalem into a country that was larger than modern Israel, a kinghood, and minted their own coins as a kingdom.

Again, you may place your lavender chips on Islam as the fourth beast, but this would mean Jesus would have come in the first advent and ascended into the Ancient of days in the time after Islam

O yeah, the time of the Maccabees - right after the reign of Antiochus IV (or Epiphenes).  It is debatable among hostorians whether this was truly an independent Israel or just something to fill the 100 year vacuum during the decline of the Seleucids and the establishment of the Herodian dynasty.  Herod even tried to lend legitimacy to his dynasty by marrying a Hasmonean princess.

That being said; the kingdom only lasted 100 years; and didn't amount to much of a world power.  Was it truly an independent kingdom, or was it only an illusion of independence until the Romans militarily replaced the Seleucids in 37 BC?  At any rate, it did not outlast the kingdoms that would eventualyy become Islam Iraq; Iran, Saudi Arabia)

Concerning the underlined part of what I quoted above - what is your reference for this?  I've never heard that objection before - I'd like to know more.

[brotherly love]

O yeah, the time of the Maccabees - right after the reign of Antiochus IV (or Epiphenes).  It is debatable among hostorians whether this was truly an independent Israel or just something to fill the 100 year vacuum during the decline of the Seleucids and the establishment of the Herodian dynasty.  Herod even tried to lend legitimacy to his dynasty by marrying a Hasmonean princess.

That being said; the kingdom only lasted 100 years; and didn't amount to much of a world power.  Was it truly an independent kingdom, or was it only an illusion of independence until the Romans militarily replaced the Seleucids in 37 BC?  At any rate, it did not outlast the kingdoms that would eventualyy become Islam Iraq; Iran, Saudi Arabia)

Concerning the underlined part of what I quoted above - what is your reference for this?  I've never heard that objection before - I'd like to know more.

Very few countries at that time were independant of a regional power. A weaker country would sign a suzerain treaty with a stronger state and become their vassal.. Sometimes equal countries would sign parity treaties. Israel was a weaker country and would usually be a party to a suzerain contract. Israel under the Hasmoneans did make a deal with Greek Syria but became a monarchy that ruled itself. In this time they became a kingdom that enlarged itself from just a city of Jews to defeating other kingdoms-this is where King Herod came from-Idumea. Israel was able to also choose loyalty-they chose Rome from Greek Syria. Rome then occupied Israel after a time.

If someone were to claim that the Hasmoneans where not a kingdom, then they would also have to claim that the Kingdom of Judah was not a kingdom. Judah became a suzerain from Babylon, and chose Egypt despite Jeremiah's advice to be loyal to Babylon. One would have to claim that Judah did not lose the kingdom by the same rules. Judah still was a kingdom until 6AD,although a client kingdom, and then Rome deposed the kingdom of Israel/Judah and called it the roman province of Iudaea. It was a progression of loss of power by the Romans. Syria became a province under Pompey in 63BC. Ptolemic Egypt was declared a province in 30BC

Israel was never to be a world power in the way we understand-the Law of Moses did not allow for this. The Law put a limit to greed, power and violence. The text really does not say it would outlast modern countries, it was to outlast the countries that ruled them.

As for the Messiah coming after the fourth beast is gone

¹¹ “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. ¹² (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,^[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. ¹⁴ He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

You should notice that the messianic figure we now identify as Jesus is going UP to Heaven, not down. This happens after the fourth beast is destroyed, and this happened right on time. The last Greek kingdom of the king of the north (Greek Syria) and south (Greek Egypt) was Greek Egypt as it became extinct when it became a province of Rome in 30 BC. Jesus came very quickly after this right on time. This passage is claimed and quoted by the New Testament. The 70 weeks is not.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 8thdaypriest, 

When the stone hits the feet of the image, Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors.  This means that the gold, silver, and brass EXIST at the same time as the clay/iron.  The WHOLE IMAGE exists - at the time the stone hits.  

This tells me the prophecy could be a duel prophecy.  Yes - it represented the successive rulers/persecutors over Judea/Israel.  But it can also represent the state of the entire world, at the very END.  Babylon is the HEAD of the image.  Does not Babylon exist at the END?  The angels message is "Babylon is fallen".  That means Babylon must exist - in some form - in the very last days.  If Babylon exists, then why not also the silver kingdom, the brass kingdom, the iron kingdom, and the mixed kingdoms - at least in some form ?   

 

Yes I believe that there is the sequential aspect of the image representing the successive kingdoms until the return of Christ, and also the prophecy depicts that all of the past kingdoms are represented in one form or another and destroyed together at the return of Christ. This also answers your problem with Daniel 7 where some remnant of these other three kingdoms survive into the Kingdom of God, while the fourth kingdom is destroyed and disinherited of all territory. In other words some of these will survive Armageddon and submit to the rule of Jesus, while the fourth beast together with the Catholic Church will refuse submission as predicted in Revelation 17.

It is significant that the stone power hits the image on the feet, showing that in terms of the sequence that it will be after the decline of Rome and in the era of the divided and weakened Roman power, represented by the iron and clay feet.

I endorse the usual SDA teaching found in such literature as “Daniel and Revelation” by Uriah Smith 1944 page 44 where the various invading forces of the Huns, Vandals etc were instrumental in breaking up the Roman Empire. These kingdoms have changed over time and we now have nation-states. Also I attended a Daniel Prophecy Seminar and the notes/question 21 also speak of this breakup of the Roman Empire in AD 476. This was also taught in the Prophetic Code series and also a seminar held locally on Daniel 2 under the Prophetic Code banner.

Where I disagree with the SDA position and your different unique view is that I believe that immediately after the stone smites the image on the feet, the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth for the 1000 years. This is clearly taught in Daniel 2:35, 44, Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Psalm 72, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 and many other passages.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JoeMo]

Hey Bro,

I perceive that you have studied the Islam connection more than most (at least more than me).  I just got into it about a year ago; so I'm kind of a newbie.  Your points are well taken; although I'm too ignorant still to either agree or disagree with your take on things.

One of the books I'm reading right now (The Dragon and the Beast) by a Messianic Jewish author claims that the Islamic As-Sufyani and Al Mahdi are the beast and the antichrist, respectively.  I was suprised to read last night that this author claims the RCC will end up supporting As-Sufyani and Al Mahdi when they conquer Jerusalem and take control of the Temple Mount.  I'm to ignorant on the subject to support or refute that.  I just found it interesting that someone besides SDA's would tie the RCC to the end-times.

I'm glad that we agree that Rome cannot be the 4th Kingdom.

[Kevin H]

When the stone hits the feet of the image, Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors.  This means that the gold, silver, and brass EXIST at the same time as the clay/iron.  The WHOLE IMAGE exists - at the time the stone hits.  

This tells me the prophecy could be a duel prophecy.  Yes - it represented the successive rulers/persecutors over Judea/Israel.  But it can also represent the state of the entire world, at the very END.  Babylon is the HEAD of the image.  Does not Babylon exist at the END?  The angels message is "Babylon is fallen".  That means Babylon must exist - in some form - in the very last days.  If Babylon exists, then why not also the silver kingdom, the brass kingdom, the iron kingdom, and the mixed kingdoms - at least in some form ?   

 

I don't like the term "Duel prophecy" A little more accurate would be the idea of type and antitype. However the most accurate way of saying this is exegetical meaning and a historical analogy.  Exegetical is the immediate context that it is talking about. A historical analogy is reapplying the principle since it is the living word of God. God gives us a chance to do something but respects freedom of choice and will lead us around again to a similar situation where we reapply the principles. Like how the Hebrews were lead to the promised land, did not cross-over spent 40 years in the desert then returned and crossed over.

In Deuteronomy 4 the Hebrews are given two possible futures. One where they are faithful and one if they are not faithful. If they were not faithful God would send different curses to try to get them to change course. If all else failed they would go into exile. But the exile should have been the last days, to end with a second great exodus lead by the Messiah. To a typical Hebrew the idea of the exile brings about the same thoughts to their mind as the idea of Sunday Laws do to the typical Adventist.

Thus originally Daniel 2 was 4 kings and 3 aspects after the last king, and the book of Daniel names 4 kings and would have been consumed together.  In Daniel 7 and 8 it is reapplied to the 4 kingdoms and the 3 situations  that would rule over the majority of God's people until the end of time: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, then Rome developed into the Holy Roman Empire (the feet of iron and clay) where the church played a big role and was molded to the state rather than to God. The toes of iron and clay (independent nations, in Rev. 13 the deadly wound where the crowns are on the horns instead of the head) and the toes are going to attempt to join together into a final world empire of the nations cooperating in an economic situation lead by the merchants of the earth or the corporations/banks (and while I have not really studied this history, apparently the banking system started at the tower of Babylon).

Edited July 29, 2015 by Kevin H

[8thdaypriest]

Greetings again 8thdaypriest, 

Where I disagree with the SDA position and your different unique view is that I believe that immediately after the stone smites the image on the feet, the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth for the 1000 years. This is clearly taught in Daniel 2:35, 44, Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Psalm 72, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 and many other passages.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

I believe the image is "ground to powder" and the winds carry the dust away.  Right?   

I place Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, and Psalm 72, in the 8th millennium.  I believe that Jesus will reign on earth, at the 8th millennium, through His priesthood (all of Israel redeemed).  They will teach and govern "the nations" raised as "the rest of the dead". 

In this scenario, there is no need for anyone on the earth to survive the plagues.   There is nothing in those texts which states that these scenes take place during the 7th millennium.

I'm unique, I think, as a non-SDA who believes that the redeemed will go to the "place prepared" for 1000 years.  I believe this earth really will be desolate for 1000 years.  Not many non-SDAs agree with Adventists on this point. I differ with SDAs in several ways, but this is not one of them.  

Here's a few TYPES that suggest the 8th Day is significant. 

1.  Work was to be done for six days - followed by a rest of one day.  
    Work began again on the 8th day.

2.  The land was to be worked for six days, and was to lay fallow during the 7th year.  
    Sowing began again at the 8th year.

3.  Every newborn male descended from Abraham was to be circumcised on the 8th day from birth, as a sign of the covenant with Yahweh (Genesis 17:12).

4.  Priests were consecrated for 7 days, and began their ministry as priests on the 8th day
    (Lev. 8:33-35).

5.  After defilement, the Tabernacle was cleansed for 7 days with the ashes of the “red heifer”.  The Tabernacle was declared “clean” on the 8th day  (Exo 29:37, Eze 43:26).

6.  Any clean animal became acceptable for sacrifice on the 8th day from its birth (Lev 22:27).  Firstborn clean animals were to be sacrificed on the 8th day from their birth.

 7.  The person who touched a dead body (after anointing on the 3rd and 7th days with the ashes of the red heifer) was declared “clean” on the 8th day  (Numbers 19:11).

 8.  Every person in the house where someone died, was “unclean” for 7 days (Num. 19:14).  This is why the traditional mourning period is 7 days.  Jesus died in our “tent”, therefore we will be “unclean” until the 8th day.

9.  The woman who gave birth to a male child was declared “clean” on the 8th day.      Israel is “the woman” who gave birth to Christ (Lev. 12:2).

10. Quarantine lasted seven days.  

 11. The cleansed leper (after specified anointing and sacrifices) was declared fully “clean” and could enter his house - on the 8th day (Lev. 14:10).

12. A woman with a flow of blood, became “clean” on the 8th day after her flow of blood stopped  (Lev. 15:19).  

13. Any person with a discharge became “clean” on the 8th day after the discharge stopped  (Lev. 15:28).  

14. The Feast of the 8th Day, was a special Feast which followed the 7 day Feast of Tabernacles.

15. David was the 8th Son of Jesse.

 16. David ruled as king over Judah for 7 years.  He was crowned King over united Israel in the following year - the 8th year.  David is a TYPE of Christ our King.

17. Jesus rose from the dead, on the 8th day.  
    He “finished His work”, and “rested” in death over the Sabbath of the 7th day. 

Regards,

Rachel Cory, www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[brotherly love]

Hey Bro,

I perceive that you have studied the Islam connection more than most (at least more than me).  I just got into it about a year ago; so I'm kind of a newbie.  Your points are well taken; although I'm too ignorant still to either agree or disagree with your take on things.

One of the books I'm reading right now (The Dragon and the Beast) by a Messianic Jewish author claims that the Islamic As-Sufyani and Al Mahdi are the beast and the antichrist, respectively.  I was suprised to read last night that this author claims the RCC will end up supporting As-Sufyani and Al Mahdi when they conquer Jerusalem and take control of the Temple Mount.  I'm to ignorant on the subject to support or refute that.  I just found it interesting that someone besides SDA's would tie the RCC to the end-times.

I'm glad that we agree that Rome cannot be the 4th Kingdom.

I am also gald that we agree that rome is not the fourth beast-there are many more indicators of this. The problem with reading books on this topic is that they are designed to sell. sophistry and sensationalism is usually the hook. I have not studied the Islam connection. The key is to study scripture and then it is easy to discern all the static going on. The scenarios are all the same, they just change with the newspaper.

The key is to see where the NT quotes from the Old Testament. For example most think that the 70 weeks has to do with this or that, but the New Testament writers make no similar claim.

Jesus gave us evidence that He is in Heaven with power, and gave us a sign. That sign is that when He was in Heaven, armies were coming to destroy Jerusalem in a generation. This is quoted from Daniel, but many will trample on it in order to sell books.

Edited July 29, 2015 by brotherly love

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “brotherly love”, 

The problem here is you are trying to fit this directly about yourself-it was not written to you, it was written for you.

The faithful of covenant Israel were in exile, and their reality was bleak. God was showing them that He is in control, He put them into exile, and He would restore them back to the Kingdom. This is what happened, covenant Israel became a kingdom again, and outlasted the four kingdoms that ruled them in exile, and under foreign control in a tiny city-state in which they were allowed to return.

God fulfilled His promises! God set up a kingdom in that time that would last forever-from exilehood to a kingdomhood. Jesus came at the precise time to gather the faithful together under Him as the Davidic king, and it got better, Israel went worldwide, never to be destroyed or exiled again.

As for your Isaiah prophesy, it also came true. Mt. Zion was raised up and went to the whole world. The problem here is again it was written to Israelites, and it gives a description that would be understandable to a Israelite. Irt uses terms in the covenant to communicate realities. All of this does not have to come true at the same time, all is true, but we are waiting for the final consummation

A brief comment on your view of Isaiah 2:1-4. Isaiah’s prophecies were given during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah. Some aspects of Isaiah’s message had relevance to this period of time, well before Judah’s captivity in Babylon. But the details of Isaiah’s many prophecies, that had some fulfillment in the time of these kings, had a greater significance that also looked forward to the sufferings of Christ and the Kingdom that would ultimately be established at the return of Christ.

My personal understanding then of Isaiah 2:1-5 is that it was given during the reign of Uzziah and had a partial fulfillment during the days of Hezekiah after the defeat of the Assyrian outside the walls of Jerusalem. But these events point forward to the greater fulfillment of this prophecy at the return of Jesus, when the Kingdom will be established. Thus Isaiah 2:1-4 is parallel with Daniel 2:35,44. Also the parallel passage that quotes Isaiah 2:1-4 in Micah 4:1-3 continues on to talk of the restoration of Israel at that time and this is different to your application of Isaiah 2:1-4 to the Gentile Church. Daniel 2:35,44 and Isaiah 2:1-4 are still future, to be fulfilled at the return of Christ.

Although you reject that Rome is the 4th metal in the image of Daniel 2, I found it interesting to refer to a document by a researcher into some of the interpretations by Biblical scholars. The following believed that Rome was the 4th metal and that the iron and clay represents “Divided Rome”. This was accomplished by the weakening and subdivision of the Roman power by outside invasion.
AD180 Irenaeus, AD185 Tertullian, AD194 Clement, AD200 Hippolytus, AD230 Origen, AD280 Metodius, AD300 Victorinus, AD306 Lactantius, AD330 Eusebius, AD347 Cyril, AD350 Aphrahat, AD401 Severus, AD407 John Chrysostom, AD340-420 Jerome, AD450 Theodoret, AD354-430 Augustine, AD450 Isidore of Pelusium, AD520 Andreas.

Isaac Newton in his book “The Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse” AD1733 also identifies Rome as the 4th kingdom and the clay element as the various invasions by the Vandals and Goths etc, thus amalgamating with and weakening the 4th kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brotherly love]

Greetings again “brotherly love”, 

A brief comment on your view of Isaiah 2:1-4. Isaiah’s prophecies were given during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah. Some aspects of Isaiah’s message had relevance to this period of time, well before Judah’s captivity in Babylon. But the details of Isaiah’s many prophecies, that had some fulfillment in the time of these kings, had a greater significance that also looked forward to the sufferings of Christ and the Kingdom that would ultimately be established at the return of Christ.

My personal understanding then of Isaiah 2:1-5 is that it was given during the reign of Uzziah and had a partial fulfillment during the days of Hezekiah after the defeat of the Assyrian outside the walls of Jerusalem. But these events point forward to the greater fulfillment of this prophecy at the return of Jesus, when the Kingdom will be established. Thus Isaiah 2:1-4 is parallel with Daniel 2:35,44. Also the parallel passage that quotes Isaiah 2:1-4 in Micah 4:1-3 continues on to talk of the restoration of Israel at that time and this is different to your application of Isaiah 2:1-4 to the Gentile Church. Daniel 2:35,44 and Isaiah 2:1-4 are still future, to be fulfilled at the return of Christ.

    Trevor

 

Hi Trevor

I dont think the message would have been relevant at that time. It says "in the last days". In order to have a last days, there needs to be a first days. This wouls have been inaugurated with the last days of Covenant Israel. This happened, and Peter uses this along with Joel 2, when the holy Spirit came at Pentecost.Ironically, covenant Israel was destroyed one generation after pentecost.

There is no gentile church, the kingdom is made up of faithful Jews and Gentiles alike...true Israel. you are in that kingdom, and it is a shame you dont believe it.

Mt zion is a metaphor for God;s kingdom, and God's kingdom has gone out to the whole world

Peter uses this along with Joel 2 in acts 2, when

[brotherly love]

    Although you reject that Rome is the 4th metal in the image of Daniel 2, I found it interesting to refer to a document by a researcher into some of the interpretations by Biblical              scholars. The following believed that Rome was the 4th metal and that the iron and clay represents “Divided Rome”. This was accomplished by the weakening and subdivision of the  Roman power by outside invasion.

AD180 Irenaeus, AD185 Tertullian, AD194 Clement, AD200 Hippolytus, AD230 Origen, AD280 Metodius, AD300 Victorinus, AD306 Lactantius, AD330 Eusebius, AD347 Cyril, AD350 Aphrahat, AD401 Severus, AD407 John Chrysostom, AD340-420 Jerome, AD450 Theodoret, AD354-430 Augustine, AD450 Isidore of Pelusium, AD520 Andreas.

Isaac Newton in his book “The Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse” AD1733 also identifies Rome as the 4th kingdom and the clay element as the various invasions by the Vandals and Goths etc, thus amalgamating with and weakening the 4th kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Hi

I am not intimidated by Issac Newton and the other references about Rome being the 4th beast fighting with goths and vandals.

The prediction of daniel 7 is that the Messiah would ascend to the Ancient of days after the fourth beast had come and gone. The New Testament quotes this. Jesus did not come in His first advent after the roman Empire, barbarian tribes, or some Catholic scenarios.