Are you a Vegetarian?

[Geoarrge]

The issue is usually more complex than vegetarian = healthy. If it weren't, Mormons wouldn't be living as long as Adventists. 

[Lauralea]

Do vegetarians actually live longer, or does it just seem longer to a vegetarian?

I have heard it said that fruits and vegetables are not food; they are what food eats.

PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals

I'm not "judging" vegetarians; just having a little carnivore fun!

Well I ate meat till I was 23 and don't miss it. Oh wait, there was the food poisoning I got the time I ate aged red meat. But I just don't have any nostalgia for that either. And there were the constant headaches I lived with for 2 years.  But that was due to a dairy allergy (still have that once in awhile). Nope, don't miss it. I do enjoy food - Thai, Chinese, Italian and Hispanic especially. Interesting how all those groups have very tasty vegetarian alternatives.I guess they are.. creative and inventive.

[Lauralea]

http://healthylongevity.blogspot.com/2014/02/death-by-veggiephobia.html

"The more recent 25 year follow-up of the Mormons may allow for a more informative comparison, as like the Adventist study, it included both men and women from California, and examined the effects of other lifestyle factors on mortality. Mormon men and women over the age of 25 with four favorable lifestyle factors associated with significantly reduced mortality were expected to live about 9.8 and 5.6 years longer, respectively, compared to U.S. whites.8 In comparison, vegetarian Adventist men and women over the age of 30 with three favorable lifestyle factors were expected to live about 13.2 and 8.9 years longer, respectively, compared to non-Adventist Californians whites.5 9 Compared to the average U.S. white however, this difference in life expectancy would be expected to be closer to about 14 and 10 years.7 However, and more importantly, a later paper on the Californian Adventists found that those who adhered to a vegetarian diet for at least 17 years were expected to live 3.6 years longer than those who adhered for fewer years.10 This suggests that when restricting the analysis to long-term vegetarian Adventists, the difference in life expectancy compared to the Mormons would be even greater."

This would add up to long term vegetarian Adventists living about 6 years longer than the Mormons also living in California I believe. The author also brings out how Minger's book was flawed in its methodology.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Lauralea

[CoAspen]

Looking through your posted resources, diet does contribute to lifespan. But also so does many other factors besides diet.We all know about smoking, exercise, etc. I would like to see a paper that has closely matched subjects with all the risk factors in percentages, for simplicity, so one could see how each contributes to  over all lifespan.The idea that just being a vegetarian will give those over all numbers for longer life can be misleading although very important.

[Lauralea]

 

 

Looking through your posted resources, diet does contribute to lifespan. But also so does many other factors besides diet.We all know about smoking, exercise, etc. I would like to see a paper that has closely matched subjects with all the risk factors in percentages, for simplicity, so one could see how each contributes to  over all lifespan.The idea that just being a vegetarian will give those over all numbers for longer life can be misleading although very important.

Yes those factors are indeed important CoAspen. These were analyzed for in the study mentioned above. However at times it is hard to correct for all variables because for example vegetarians are less likely to abuse alcohol and it may be due to being vegetarians. (This is from Joanna Dwyer PhD of Tufts and not from our church)

Edited August 25, 2015 by Lauralea

[Tom Wetmore]

Looking through your posted resources, diet does contribute to lifespan. But also so does many other factors besides diet.We all know about smoking, exercise, etc. I would like to see a paper that has closely matched subjects with all the risk factors in percentages, for simplicity, so one could see how each contributes to  over all lifespan.The idea that just being a vegetarian will give those over all numbers for longer life can be misleading although very important.

I recall a life expectancy calculator that weighted different factors.  I don't recall all the specifics, but as I recall exercise was a factor that made the biggest difference.  Not intense exercise but just moderate levels of exercise.   It eclipsed diet by quite a bit. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by Tom Wetmore

[Deaconess]

I grew up when liver was recommended for young girls for the iron content.      Discomfortingly to me, my mother

believed it.        She, also, committed other culinary sins such as stewed tomatoes with soggy Saltines and canned

spinach.           So, I grew up eating meat, but not pork.    I became vegetarian (my kids always have been

vegetarian) and my family almost got to being vegans until we discovered celiac disease.    Gluten is in so many things,

I can't even begin to explain how much of our diet disappeared.    We added back in dairy and eggs so that we could

have more options for nutrients.     I will cook meat for those that do request it, I just don't taste it, so its like playing

roulette with their taste buds, but that isn't my problem...  its theirs!  

[Outta Here]

Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease really is a huge problem for people who are trying to adhere to a vegetarian diet. Potlucks are the worst!

Where do vegetarians (especially vegans) get their B12? I am particularly interested because a diet deficient in B12 can lead to all sorts of problems--dementia and Alzheimer's are of special concern to me.

[Deaconess]

Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease really is a huge problem for people who are trying to adhere to a vegetarian diet. Potlucks are the worst!

Where do vegetarians (especially vegans) get their B12? I am particularly interested because a diet deficient in B12 can lead to all sorts of problems--dementia and Alzheimer's are of special concern to me.

I felt exhausted for years until they checked my b-12 levels.   It was low normal, so I started giving myself prescribed b-12 shots and the difference it made was extraordinary!!!!!    Apparently, I don't absorb b-12 all that well and they make a massive, massive difference.   Some days, I would feel like I was 80 and could hardly move or stay awake....   When I started the shots,  I was running around the house with so much energy, you would have thought I was 20 again.      Then, ironically, I found I couldn't move for the next day or two because I was in so much pain for overdoing it on the active day!          I have to stop and remind myself that I have to stop before I overdo it....  Apparently just because my mind and energy levels felt 20, didn't mean that my muscles and back got the same message....    

[Deaconess]

B-12 can be found in eggs, milk, specially fortified foods, rarely patches and nasal spray, but more commonly available as oral supplements.    The supplements can be liquid for under the tongue, tablets that melt quickly, or regular b-12 pills (multivitamins, too). 

[B/W Photodude]

Here are some excerpts from a link to an article discussing Vit B-12:

B12 synthesis is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine (in the ileum), which is the primary site of B12 absorption.  As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce vitamin B12. Dr Michael Klaper argues that vitamin B12 is present in the mouth as well and intestines.  Furthermore, Dr Virginia Vetrano states that active Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the  tonsilar crypts, in  the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial  tree. Absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in  the mouth, throat, oesophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small  intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. This does not involve the complex enzyme mechanism for absorption (Intrinsic Factor) in the small intestine as required by cyanocobalamin. The coenzymes are absorbed by diffusion from  mucous membranes (11). 

 A B12 deficiency can be caused by antibiotics (from the drugs themselves and contained in milk and meat), alcohol (alcohol damages the liver, so drinkers need more B12) and smoking (and all high temp cooked food is smoky) and stress also raises B12 needs).
 
 http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

Three points to consider:

1. Consumption of B-12 is not necessarily needed as it is produced in the small intestines as part of our symbiotic relationship with gut bacteria. So, for vegetarians and vegans, maintaining a healthy microbiome

<  http://genome.wustl.edu/projects/detail/human-gut-microbiome/  > is a requirement for adequate B-12.

2. For those who are proponents of meat eating for the benefit of getting your B-12, keep in mind the enormous amounts of antibiotics used in the meat industry. These antibiotics can have a detrimental effect on the meat eaters balance of healthy gut bacteria.

3. I was informed by someone recently that when you rinse and spit on arising in the morning, you "delete" a lot of your vitamins right down the drain. Reading the above seems to confirm the assertion that a rinse and swallow is healthier!

[JoeMo]

 For those who are proponents of meat eating for the benefit of getting your B-12, keep in mind the enormous amounts of antibiotics used in the meat industry. These antibiotics can have a detrimental effect on the meat eaters balance of healthy gut bacteria.

I don't know about elsewhere, but there are plenty of places here in Colorado to buy organic, hormone-free and antibiotic-free beef that has been grass-fed  in organically grown pastures.  It's a little more expensive than standard commercial beef; but much safer and more nutritious.

Re-reading this, I made it sound like I eat a side of beef per day.  I only eat beef a couple times per month - usually in the form of a burger when I'm travelling.  I eat steak or roast maybe 4 times a year.  Most of my family's protien comes from natural honey-smoked salmon and sardines; chicken maybe once or twice a week.  Our breakfast almost always consists of unsweetened yogurt and fresh fruit; and dinner is usually a mix of raw leafy veggies with tomatoes, avocado, salmon, and feta.  Lunch is whatever I can find in the fridge and throw in a bag.  Today it's veggie chili with  roasted green chile on the side.

[B/W Photodude]

I don't know about elsewhere, but there are plenty of places here in Colorado to buy organic, hormone-free and antibiotic-free beef that has been grass-fed  in organically grown pastures. 

Now try and find organic, hormone-free, anti-biotic free, grass fed from organic pasteurs, and kosher slaughtered! And don't forget humanely slaughtered per Temple Granden specifications. For me to eat meat, you have to meet all those specs and then pass the ethical questions on killing animals that trust human beings to do the best for them as discussed in EGWs "Ministry of Healing."

Temple Granden is an agricultural professor who has revolutionized the slaughter industry in the US to provide a more humane death for animals at slaughter. She is also past president of the Autistic Society. Pairing them up, she is autistic when savant capabilities in understanding animals and how they think. She has written fascinating books on animals. You can Youtube her or even see a movie about her from Netflix which is titled "Temple Granden."

Have you seen the product that they are advertising to farmers to "beef up" (pardon the pun!) their cattle for slaughter. The commercial states it is not to be used within so much time of slaughter. Wonder how many of the cattlemen and their ranch hands read and follow their directions.

With all these hormones present in the food supply today, you just have to wonder what the social effects of these hormones are. Especially since many claim hormone aberrations for homosexuality and people are wondering why girls are entering puberty at younger and younger ages.

[JoeMo]

Now try and find organic, hormone-free, anti-biotic free, grass fed from organic pasteurs, and kosher slaughtered!

I don't know if kosher slaughtered means much.  MY understanding is that most beef is properly bled prior to aging; and I've been told that in a commercail sense, all "kosher" means is that the process was observed and certified by an approriate rabbi.  I'm much more concerned about  hormones and antibiotics.

Someone on another thread invoked Isaiah 25:6 as evidence that we will eat meat in the Kingdom: "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines." (NIV).  My wife took offense to this and did some research.

She found that the KJV Version reads: "And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."  Several other translations do not use the word "meat", either.  She further looked into the meaning of this phrase in the original Hebrew; her conclusion is that the Hebrew means "rich sweet treats" rather than literal animal fresh or bone marrow.

God's word says that there will be no killing in His Kingdom.  So that means we won't be slaughtering animals for food; and we will all be vegetarians; or fresh meat will be "created" without killing anything (unlikely).  It makes sense (I hate it when she's right!).  We better dust of our K-roast and veggie-patty recipes!

[B/W Photodude]

I don't know if kosher slaughtered means much.  MY understanding is that most beef is properly bled prior to aging; and I've been told that in a commercail sense, all "kosher" means is that the process was observed and certified by an approriate rabbi.  I'm much more concerned about  hormones and antibiotics.

God's word says that there will be no killing in His Kingdom.  So that means we won't be slaughtering animals for food; and we will all be vegetarians; or fresh meat will be "created" without killing anything (unlikely).  It makes sense (I hate it when she's right!).  We better dust of our K-roast and veggie-patty recipes!

Just from my experience, kosher meat just tasted healthier. And the aging kind of turns my stomach to hear it. I mean like, isn't it supposed to be buried by then?

We can get into all kinds of quandaries when you try and guess what we will be doing in heaven. I am not sure how you would even cook in heaven so you will have you eat your "created meat" extremely rare, as in raw. In order to have a fire to cook with, you will have to burn trees! People always say flowers will never die. It would seem that neither will trees.

I suspicion that to live in heaven will be the ultimate respect for life that we cannot even imagine. Of course, we will also have the relief from the vermin and pests we have today in this earth and all things in heaven will have a purpose. Seems some life forms in this world have no purpose other than to pester and multiply.

[Outta Here]

An heavenly diet will be wonderful! One thing will be sure--I won't have to worry anymore about whether or not my diet is "right" with the Lord, and "right" with what my body needs for optimal health.

[Lauralea]

Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease really is a huge problem for people who are trying to adhere to a vegetarian diet. Potlucks are the worst!

Where do vegetarians (especially vegans) get their B12? I am particularly interested because a diet deficient in B12 can lead to all sorts of problems--dementia and Alzheimer's are of special concern to me.

Aubrey B12 is indeed very important and was probably one reason Ellen White told a doctor she knew not to go vegan until the Lord prepared the way. He got sick twice when he did it. An unpublished study I heard presented about vegan Adventists showed that without B12 supplements about half of them developed early signs of deficiency in about 6 months (Just blood work, no symptoms) so while not everyone who is vegetarian may become deficient it makes sense to supplement. It is made by germs, and in a perfect world there would be no unfriendly germs to wash off- guess that is why most vegetarians need to take it now. If you have celiac disease it is even more important to take supplements because you are practically guaranteed to absorb it less efficiently. A lot of meat eaters over 50 need it anyway, according to the Framingham study of Americans.  Most can do with 500 mcg. of sublingual B12 but for those who need more they can try a 3 way absorbed B12 in a higher dose- PM me for suggested brand if anyone needs. Side effects can be numbness tingling and foggy thinking. Meat eaters who are deficient get enlarged red blood cells but this seldom happens on a vegetarian diet due to the higher intake of folic acid, so if your doc wants to check for it he needs a Schilling test.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Lauralea

[LifeHiscost]

Aubrey B12 is indeed very important and was probably one reason Ellen White told a doctor she knew not to go vegan until the Lord prepared the way. He got sick twice when he did it. An unpublished study I heard presented about vegan Adventists showed that without B12 supplements about half of them developed early signs of deficiency in about 6 months (Just blood work, no symptoms) so while some may be able to absorb it from the gut, a lot of people can't and it makes sense to supplement. It is made by germs, and in a perfect world there would be no unfriendly germs to wash off- guess that is why most vegetarians need to take it now. If you have celiac disease it is even more important to take supplements because you are practically guaranteed to absorb it less efficiently. A lot of meat eaters over 50 need it anyway, according to the Framingham study of Americans.  Most can do with 500 mcg. of sublingual B12 but for those who need more they can try a 3 way absorbed B12 in a higher dose- PM me for suggested brand if anyone needs.

And also methylcobalamin is more effective than cyanocobalamin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcobalamin

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Lauralea]

And also methylcobalamin is more effective than cyanocobalamin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcobalamin

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

It comes in higher doses but in small doses methylcobalamin is better absorbed, in large ones cyanocobalamin is. http://jacknorrisrd.com/safety-of-cyanide-in-cyanocobalamin/ I think either one would work in the right dose probably.

[Lauralea]

Women but not men who are vegans should probably take a calcium citrate or calcium citrate malate supplement also. And a multi is good for iodine for all vegetarians. Iodine deficiency is the most common one in the world and not just among vegetarians. Those who cannot eat bread raised with yeast (for example those with celiac disease) should take a zinc supplement or a multi with zinc, particularly if they are vegans. Supplements with iron should be avoided unless you are anemic or expecting, and if you are, take your other supplements a different time, especially B12 because it interferes with B12 metabolism.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Lauralea

[B/W Photodude]

Women but not men who are vegans should probably take a calcium citrate or calcium citrate malate supplement also. 

And women should not drink more than four colas soda per week. The phosphoric acid messes with the calcium in the bones leading to osteoporosis. I have not come up with the men's limit yet, although I am sure there is one and I probably exceed it!

[Lauralea]

And women should not drink more than four colas soda per week. The phosphoric acid messes with the calcium in the bones leading to osteoporosis. I have not come up with the men's limit yet, although I am sure there is one and I probably exceed it!

Colas are not so good for bones, you're right. And then there is the diabetes connection...

 

[Narcah]

I'll make it simple. No animal has to suffer and die to sustain my life, and I grew up and got weaned. 

[B/W Photodude]

For the environmentalists (didn't say wackos!) out there, it is said that cows are one of the number one causes of the gases that cause "global warming." I don't really believe in global warming, but cows are polluters. Cows produce significant amounts of methane gas via flatulance! So, to be consistent, if you are into controlling others for the purpose of "saving the earth," you should be controlling your appetite and not eating cows. 

Some people in the areas of commercial pig farms in the US southeast are also having significant local pollutions from the effects on the environment. Shockingly enough, it is in the poorer areas of the communities where it occurs. Why don't pig farms ever get built next to exclusive gated neighborhoods?

You should also be aware that it is estimated by some that it takes seven times as much land to support a meat eater as it does a vegetarian.

[Outta Here]

Just to balance out the thinking...

If a person has to eat meat for their own personal health, they're okay....salvation isn't based on doing what is necessary to sustain life....unless of course you're Jesus....just sayin'.