Hastening death

[Gerr]

Would you ever consider hastening death?   If you have a pet that has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve suffering?  Similarly,  if you have a loved one who has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve that person of suffering?  For example, turn off a ventilator?  Withhold nutrition?  Give an overdose of medication? etc.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

yes, I have, and I would again.  ... we could have kept my father on life support, but we didn't... Hardest week of my life, but I'd do it again.

(he wasn't on a vent...he could have been kept alive indefinitely with nutritional support)

[Gerr]

How about an overdose?

[Robert]

I would say that it is the motive behind the action of relieving one of pain & suffering.  That infers if one is to have a correct motive the Spirit of God must be indwelling.  Otherwise it gets into selfishness and not true love.

When I asked God to allow my grandfather to die he was gone within 4 hrs.  He was struggling with liver cancer.  The doctors had given him 6 months.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Proponents of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide (PAS) contend that terminally ill people should have the right to end their suffering with a quick, dignified, and compassionate death. They argue that the right to die is protected by the same constitutional safeguards that guarantee such rights as marriage, procreation, and the refusal or termination of life-saving medical treatment.

Opponents of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide contend that doctors have a moral responsibility to keep their patients alive as reflected by the Hippocratic Oath. They argue there may be a "slippery slope" from euthanasia to murder, and that legalizing euthanasia will unfairly target the poor and disabled and create incentives for insurance companies to terminate lives in order to save money. [http://euthanasia.procon.org]

Edited August 29, 2015 by Robert

[Deaconess]

Would you ever consider hastening death?   If you have a pet that has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve suffering?  Similarly,  if you have a loved one who has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve that person of suffering?  For example, turn off a ventilator?  Withhold nutrition?  Give an overdose of medication? etc.

I have, many times, had animals put to sleep.   They are ours to have dominion over and, although many may hate my doing this, by the time I have arrived at the decision to euthanize an animal, I am most always surprised by how far from healthy they have gotten (in spite of regular veterinary care).     Sometimes animals deteriorate in such small increments that it is not clear to see how pitiful they truly are....   Once I take them to the vet for their very last time, I get to see them free of their home environment and it is striking to me why I hadn't done it sooner.     We are blessed with a vet's office who knows us personally over the stretch of many years and many, many, many animals.     We do what we can when we can, and I have always been told I was making the correct decision for the sake of the animal.    Only once did I have a dog put down because she bit my son for the second time and, even then, they supported our decision.    I could not bear to have the dog wound a person severely and I would never be able to forgive myself if the biting escalated further.   

People.   Would I do anything?   No, I would never personally over-medicate someone to death.    There are times that docs order high doses when withdrawing care to ensure that the person has NO chance of suffering.     My grandmother was made comfortable, but in doing so, the docs told my parents that it would hasten her death.    She was NOT ever going to get better.    She had internally decapitated (bones no longer connected in her neck) from rheumatoid arthritis and its treatment.    She was in uncontrollable pain and to ease her eminent passing was not going to solve her baseline problems.    It made sense to make her comfortable before the inevitable.    

I had to decide what treatments to allow and what treatments didn't make sense for my parents.    They had long illnesses and we had to weigh what was helpful and what would cause unnecessary pain.     My dad was in very poor health when they found something on his pancreas.    We were not going to have them biopsy and remove tissue to see if it was cancerous.    If it was cancer, he wouldn't have lived another three months.   It was not worth it to put him through the trauma of diagnosis and treatment since he probably would have died in an ICU being poked and prodded to death.    However, when he had fluid on his lungs, we did consent to a pulmonary tap so that the fluid would be removed and would offer immediate comfort.    

In the case of a painful, terminal condition, I would consider what the person had indicated that their wishes were....   although I would not assist in a suicide.    I think quality of life matters.   If the person can be treated with some success, treatment should only occur when it will help in my opinion.   Putting people through extended, unhelpful treatments to extend life no matter the cost to the person, is not kind or loving.    A ventilator for a short period of time might be deemed worth it if the person can recover and is willing.    Removing a ventilator just to remove extraordinary measures that are propping up a person can be done with love.  Consider that a person on a vent will have excretions suctioned out many times a day and it is uncomfortable for them.    Removing a ventilator can be removing the false support of a failing body.   It often occurs with medication to ensure that the person does not suffer.   Often, they will quit drinking and eating when they no longer feel hungry.   People lose their alertness as the body starts to shut down, which I see as a blessing.     Forcing them to have a tube placed for feeding is another support that can extend life, but it may not affect the quality of the life extended.    It is a personal choice in the best interests of the terminal patient.   

Letting nature take its course does not include, in my mind, forcing things upon the suffering just to continue life.   At some point, you arrive at the place where you are not promoting life as much as you are prolonging death.    Each situation is different and should be approached with much prayer.    I always fall back to the saying:   "Just because we can doesn't mean we should......  "

[Jeannieb43]

We had the most wonderful and expert family physician when one of my dear ones was dying of inoperable cancer.   The surgeons had said they could do nothing more, and had referred us to hospice.   Our family doctor came on board and offered to take over the end-of-life care instead of hospice.   He was absolutely wonderful, and the sick one had a peaceful last few weeks.   His Rx was: discontinue IVs, nutrition and medication, and let the disease do its job.  But he did prescribe a dose of Xanax every six hours [swallowed in a spoonful of applesauce], and 4 drops of morphine on the tongue every 4 hours.  The ending was so peaceful I just hope that doctor is still available when it comes my time to go.    There was no "hastening" of death, only allowing the cancer to take over.   But without any suffering whatsoever for the dear patient.

 

He first asked the patient his permission to discontinue the IVs, etc.   It was peaceful for all concerned.

 

 

[Stan]

Would you ever consider hastening death?   If you have a pet that has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve suffering?  Similarly,  if you have a loved one who has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve that person of suffering?  For example, turn off a ventilator?  Withhold nutrition?  Give an overdose of medication? etc.

I have too often thought that if we treated our animals, making them suffer, as much as we do our loved ones, someone might press charges against us.

 

this is one of the toughest thing in life.

[Femster]

i have recently had to put down an almost 20 year old alpaca, so it has definately made me think.

i have a knee replacement coming up sometime in the next 12 months, in Sydney- some 300klms away form home, so i have made the following call- that if i crash on the table, they are to keep me alive long enough for the family to come down and say goodbye, then to turn all life support off.

I have also decided NOT to have any treatment if i should have cancer that is terminal. I cant have morphine without having an allergic reaction.

I God wants to end suffering and pain- which will happen once Jesus comes again- why cannot we do it on earth, now- if that is the express wishes of the patient- who would have to be checked to make sure they havent been coerced into this decision.

as much as the sanctity of life must be preserved, there comes a time when keeping someone alive is cruel and unusual punishment- which Christ surely does not want. He wants us to help relieve pain and suffering- surely this comes under that category???

[Deaconess]

Femster, if you happen to "crash," you may want to let them have a short bit of time to see if you can recover.    Often, when people "crash" in a hospital setting they are able to be revived within minutes (like with an arrhythmia that sends your heart into v-tach because your electrolytes are out of bounds)  and with no lasting damage.    It would be different if it were something catastrophic, I understand where you are coming from in that instance.   Just make sure your doc and you are defining "crash" in the same way.   Maybe think about giving them a few minutes to try to keep you around....    

 

I'm sorry to hear about your alpaca.    

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by Deaconess

[Deaconess]

In order to treat my grandmother's extreme pain to the extent that it made any difference meant that it would likely lower her blood pressure in making her comfortable and hasten death in that way.   Lower blood pressure equals lower perfusion to all organs....   Not that they were going to euthanize her or put a pillow over her face or anything.     

 

[joeb]

Gerry,

 

I'm really sorry about your wife.  I can't imagine how I would feel if mine were in the same position.  As to helping someone die, I can only say that suffering is far worse than death for both the sufferer and those who love that person.  I truly believe we have a merciful God who understands out pain and takes all of our circumstances into account when we make our decisions. 

I watched my old man die slowly over a period a few years and even though he and I had no relationship between us it was hard to watch someone who had been very talented at a lot of things get to the point where he just couldn't think or do the things he'd always done.  It drove him absolutely nuts not to have his full mental capacities and know it.  I always thought it was a merciful thing when the last group of strokes and a heart attack put an end to his life. 

Would I "put someone to sleep" so to speak to save them from suffering anymore?  I very well might as I've had to put down a pet or two that was closer to me than most people have ever been to keep them from extended suffering.  I'm just thankful I've never been in your position up to this point in my life. 

Whatever you choose to do, you have my support and understanding.

[Gail]

Hard, hard decision. This is the stuff of life

[Stan]

Gerry, one has to make sure one does not have to suffer, in order to keep someone they love from not suffering...

 

[JoeMo]

I recently faced this situation with my mom.  She had terminal cancer; and the chemotherapy and radiation  - while delaying her death - was just prolonging her misery.  My siblings and I got together to discuss it with her; and told her just that.  She said that she didn't want to leave us alone.  We told her that we would rather see her at peace and out of her misery than being on the verge of a slow and painful death; but we would support her in whatever she decided to do.  She chose to quit the treatments and enter in-home hospice.  Within 6 weeks she was on so much pain medication that she slept about 20 hour per day.  When she was awake she was lucid and peaceful.  She passed peacefully in her sleep with all of her kids there.  I'm sure that the very drugs that gave her peace and freedom from pain also hastened her death.

My deepest condolences on your wife's illness, Gerry.  God bless you for being such a concerned caretaker.

[Nan]

Yes Gerry, this is a difficult enough question in the abstract but when a loved one is in pain and dying, it becomes immeasurably harder.

In principle I do not have any qualms about turning off life support if a person has been appropriately declared brain dead. 

When my mother declined transfer to another hospital for treatment of her septicaemia....she had been in chronic pain for years with rheumatoid arthritis, and had some other medical complications of that disease, I supported her decision and she was kept comfortable for the remaining few days of her life.

[Nan]

Letting nature take its course does not include, in my mind, forcing things upon the suffering just to continue life.   At some point, you arrive at the place where you are not promoting life as much as you are prolonging death.    Each situation is different and should be approached with much prayer.    I always fall back to the saying:   "Just because we can doesn't mean we should......  

 

Such wise words Deaconess.

[Deaconess]

Gerry, I am fairly new, so I don't know what you are going through with your wife or what her condition is now.  I am so very sorry for the pain and heart-wrenching feelings you are having.   I was an ICU nurse and I lost both of my parents after long, long illnesses but years apart.  It is so very different when you are the one making the decisions for someone who means the world to you.   

One of the things that my husband did for each of my parents (after they lost consciousness) was to tell them that it was okay to go and that he would take care of me.   In both cases, we were with them all day and came home only to receive a phone call that each had died after we left.  I don't know what they were able to perceive for sure, but I know they respected and trusted my husband as if he were their own son and loved him wholeheartedly.  

I do hope that you have support from church, family, and friends there with you as you navigate your grief (and please visit here often to let others know how much they care for you).  Pure exhaustion can overwhelm your mind, too.   It gets to the point sometimes where you don't even know where to turn.   Please don't ignore your own needs for fresh air, nutrition, sleep, and support/help during these days.   Please continue to trust God to guide your every thought and decision even when your strength is gone.   He has not and will never leave your side. Hospice was gracious and helped in so many ways to ensure my parent's comfort and I would highly recommend them from the experiences I have had with them.    I will pray for you and for your dear wife, but I sense that I am only one of a multitude doing the same.   

Edited August 30, 2015 by Deaconess

[LifeHiscost]

I have too often thought that if we treated our animals, making them suffer, as much as we do our loved ones, someone might press charges against us.

 

this is one of the toughest thing in life.

And I cannot say what I would do until faced with the actual circumstances. Too many variables. Whatever the decision it would definitely be done only after earnest prayer.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[B/W Photodude]

Somewhere on this site I posted a picture of my dog. She was a black/white parti-color Saluki. I wanted a dog like her and from her bloodlines for many years. In my last quarter of my last year of nursing school, someone told me of a litter being born in the midwest. I contact the breeder and we agreed that I would get one of the puppies.

When she was eight years old she developed breast cancer, coincidentally when she was in whelp. She did fine with the litter and the cancerous nodules were unchanged for the next five years when one of them explosively grew to the size of a grapefruit. I took her to one vet who gave me unsatisfactory options which I declined and took her to another vet. He said, "let's get a chest xray and see if it has spread." Her lungs were full of little quarter size tumors. She was not appearing to experience any discomfort, so the vet said to take her home and keep her comfortable. When she seemed to be having more difficulty than she was enjoying living, he recommended putting her to sleep. He said it would be no more than six weeks. So essentially, my dog was in hospice care. And six weeks later, I held her as she went to the big sleep at the age of 13.

I had her son, who at about the 12 developed "canine geriatric vestibular syndrome" which is an old age dog problem with his balance. Most dogs recover after a time, but my dog mostly recovered but was never the same. While he seemed to enjoy life, he had severe balance problems and even almost ran sideways at times! He got steadily weaker with increasing balance problems until with a slight push he would fall over. Eventually, he was unable to get on his feet by himself. And again, I held him as he went to sleep.

It is sad that our heritage of sin is to protect and save animals from distress and pain by actively putting them to sleep. They depend on us to make some decisions for them. In the meantime, in the world where everything will be made right, I cannot help to think you can ask for your most loved pets to be given back from where you surrendered them to.

[8thdaypriest]

Everyone should have a "Living will" to say clearly how you want to be treated "in the event of".  My living will says that I DO NOT want to be kept alive in a vegetative or severely disabled state.  If I no longer recognize anyone, no longer have awareness, and can no longer interact, then "I request physician assistance to END my life" .   

The Catholic church doctrine said that women were ordained of the LORD to suffer when giving birth.  Therefore anything that would lessen pain, was forbidden.  How's THAT for teaching a compassionate God?  I don't agree AT ALL, with this doctrine.  Why would I agree that we cannot under any circumstance, hasten death in order to end pain?  I think we treat our pets better than we treat suffering people.

In 2002 my mother had a severe stroke.  She could not speak, swallow, or move her right side.  She already had Alzheimer's.  She could have been kept alive with a feeding tube, turned back and forth, cleaned and bathed.  My mother would rather be DEAD, than endure such.  We stopped the IVs, moved her back to the assisted living place, and called the hospice nurse.  It took her 5 days to die.  She was on pain meds and slept most of the time until the end. 

Mom had made a living will - years before - at my insistence.  That will allowed us to END things, over my sister's objections.  She is a doctor, but is NOT a believer.  She thought she could pull Mom through.  Thing is - Mom wanted to go.  She had wanted to go - for many years. 

[Stewart (SDA)]

There is a historical account of the two English Reformers, Ridley and Latimer. Ridley was sentenced to die by being burnt at the stake. The other man, Latimer, was burnt at the same time, and he died quickly.

 

There was a problem with Ridley's fire, however. His legs were burnt to cinders, and he suffered terribly; but the fire was not reaching up. His brother in law "intending to rid him out of his pain (for which cause he gave attendance)", heaped more bundles of wood around him, "so that he clean covered him", thinking that this would hasten his end. Unfortunately it only made matters worse. Then one of the other bystanders took a stick and pulled away the bundles of wood, in such a way that the fire rose up. Ridley was able to twist himself into the more intense fire, and he soon died.

 

Things like this were not uncommon. People were moved with compassion, and they were willing [and able] to help people die in situations like this. The story is somewhat worse than I've told it here, but the point is, when a person is "sentenced" to die, it really can be an act of mercy to help them die. This is a terribly emotive subject, yet I do NOT believe that the actions taken by the spectators was necessarily wrong, and in my opinion, their actions can be extrapolated out into a wider field.

[Aliensanctuary]

With the pain-killing drugs available, I feel it is an act of mercy to relieve the suffering of someone who is obviously dying. Sure, it may speed up the dying process, but once the heart stops beating, the pain ends, and the sooner the better.

I was given morphine IV after surgery following a motorcycle crash (not my fault). I was suffering and in a lot of pain---broken bones and loss of a kidney. The morphine turned a bed of rocks into a bed of clouds. That's the way I would like to go, floating away on clouds of oblivion.

[JoeMo]

I agree AS and 8thday.  I'm not afraid of dying; but I am afraid of dying slowly and in pain. If I don't die of a massive heart attack or stroke in my sleep or get hit by a train, I have left explicit DNR instructions in my will.

I'm praying for you and your wife, Gerry.

Edited August 31, 2015 by JoeMo

[B/W Photodude]

Everyone should have a "Living will" to say clearly how you want to be treated "in the event of".  My living will says that I DO NOT want to be kept alive in a vegetative or severely disabled state.  If I no longer recognize anyone, no longer have awareness, and can no longer interact, then "I request physician assistance to END my life" . 

 As far as  "I request physician assistance to END my life", this sounds like you are asking for active participation of a physician to end your life, AKA assisted suicide. This may not be legal in your state and to my knowledge is only legal in the states of Oregon, Washington, and Vermont. There is a huge difference in removing machines that support your life or giving you enough pain medications to make you comfortable and doing something to "push you over the edge." This is also a discussion you need to have with your physician ahead of time. Your physician may be ethically unwilling to treat you in the manner you wish. In that case, they are duty bound to transfer your care to a physician who is ethically comfortable with your wishes and is consistent with the laws of where you live. Living wills are good, but go one step further and find a person you trust and make them your medical power of attorney.

Removing machines that someone does not want even if it means the end of their life does not qualify to be considered assisted suicide. I always thought of it as returning someone to their "natural state," which means no machines doing what your body naturally does for itself be it breathing, feeding, pumping blood, or any other physiological function.

Terminology can be confusing and is worthwhile to become familiar with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicide