The "indwelling"

[8thdaypriest]

Here's a few verses to start with:

1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"  "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (NKJ)

John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." (NKJ)

John 17:23 "I in them, and You [Father] in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." (NKJ)

Colossians 1:27 "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (NKJ)

John 4:24 "God is spirit" (NKJ)

Genesis 41:38 [speaking of Joseph] "And Pharaoh said to his servants, 'Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the spirit of God?'" (NKJ)

Exodus 31:3 "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship" (NKJ)

Numbers 11:17 [The LORD said to Moses]   "Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone." (NKJ) 

After the spirit was "put upon" these 70 men, they prophesied. 

Numbers 24:2  "And Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him."  (NKJ)

The LORD did not allow Balaam to resist, and so Balaam spoke blessings for Israel, and prophesied good things for Israel - against his will. 

Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel."  (NKJ)

2 Samuel 23:2 [David's last words]  "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue."

MY QUESTION:

What does it mean to "be filled" with the spirit?   It is definitely described as a power from outside of ones self. 

Notice it never says, filled BY the spirit of God.  Always WITH. 

I don't have an agenda here.  I just would like to hear other folks ideas about what it means to be indwelt by the spirit of God.  Only one time has a force by-passed my conscious mind, to speak something.  It was during a Bible study, when a woman asked a question.  I started to answer her, but then I heard myself say other words.  They were the perfect answer to her question. 

[JoeMo]

Interesting question.  There must be a difference between having the Holy Spirit "in" you vs. "with" you.  Maybe that difference is the difference between how the Spirit affected the apostles when Jesus said "receive the Holy Spirit" and breathed on them; and how the Spirit affected them on Pentecost. 

I thought of another interesting thing.  As believers, we are also in Christ - part of His body.  In a weird sort of way, could that mean that those who are in Christ have already died the second death?  Of course, that assumes that Christ DID die the second death on the cross - which in itself is debatable.

[8thdaypriest]

I do NOT personally believe that Jesus died the "second death".  No one is resurrected after that TYPE of death. 

Jesus died of separation from God.  It broke (ruptured) His heart. 

The Satan, and the wicked, do not even CARE if they are separated from God. 

[pnattmbtc]

To be filled with the Spirit is, I think, a metaphor, similar to saying that Jesus dwells in our heart by faith.  Everything that happens to us is in the mind, so God uses a variety of ways to communicate with us to express certain ideas or concepts.  These expressions, that I mentioned, are means by which God is communicating that when we in harmony with Him, the Spirit bears witness to that; we experience a sense of peace, of being in harmony, or right with God.

[8thdaypriest]

So pnatt, you believe the "spirit within" means simply that God is communicating with someone, and that person is listening and responding to what he/she "hears" or "feels" ?  Is that about right?

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson,

If half Jesus DNA - half His "substance" - was "God", and God took back - withdrew - that God substance FROM Jesus,

sort of resorbing the "God substance" back into Himself

then - I could go along with that.  Cause Jesus was raised MORE than simply human.  His "god-stuff" was returned to Him. 

And if THAT is the nature of the "second death" - I can go along with that.

The "lake of fire" - has it ALWAYS EXISTED?  "Our God is a consuming fire" - right? 

If all things came forth from God, and neither matter nor energy cease to EXIST (they simply change form) then I think it possible that God will resorb (back into Himself) the energy of Satan and all the wicked.  And THAT would be the "second death". 

The death of those who rebel at Gog/Magog is NOT the "second death".  That's just another first death.  The "second death" in the "lake of fire" FOLLOWS AFTER Gog/Magog, and the Great White Throne Judgment scene of Rev. 20. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Rachel, If you will "buy it" only  if someone  can show you how God  provided for the incarnation of Jesus by combining humanity with divinity, then you will never buy it.

 

God has not revealed how Divinity can be united with fallen human nature in the person of the incarnated son of God. If is not  essential that we know this in order to believe that Jesus, the lamb of God, the propitiation for our sins,  the one made sin for us, the one who died as a malefactor tasted the death meant for redeemed sinners..

 

If Jesus tasted  a death other  than the second death, then He did not taste the punishment meant for sin.

 

The fact that one's reasoning cannot understand this or that is not relevant to the truth of anything found in scritpure.. Truth is found in comparing scripture with scripture. His word is truth.

OFF TOPIC

Jackson, please.  If you want to discuss the TYPE of death that Jesus died, then start another thread.  This thread is ABOUT what it means to be "indwelt" by God, through His spirit. 

I'm asking whether this is simply a communication - from God to us, by means of a built in "receiver",  and we respond to what we "hear".  Or is the "new birth" something more?

Does God simply change our thinking, and thereby change us? 

OR is this an actual melding somehow, of God with our inner being?

Is there a difference between being "filled with the Spirit" (like prophets of old, who spoke for God), and being "born again" - of the spirit, as described in the NT?

When Paul wrote "Christ in you, the hope of glory", did he really mean "in", or did he mean "with you" ?

Edited September 14, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[JoeMo]

I thing there is a difference between the Holy Sprit talking to us and being born again (i.e., between the Holy Spirit being "in" us vs. "on" us).  The Holy Spirit woos all of mankind; or else none of us would ever have a sense of our need for God.  In this sense the Holy Spirit is "in" us all.  Being born again is another level.   When the  Holy Spirit comes "on us" (in the sense that it came "on" the apostles in Acts 2:3 (" They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them").  It might be the difference between having a "quarter tank" of the Holy Spirit and a "full tank".  Or, as taught in the parable of the 10 virgins, having "some" oil and having "extra" oil.

The Holy Spirit is activated at a much higher level in the baptism of the Spirit.  We speak in other languages; we miraculously cure people; we receive and give prophetic words; we lose all fear (and sometimes all discretion).  We testify about what God has done, is doing, and will do without thinking about how prudent it might be at that place and time.  We impulsively help others in need; and wonder "why we did that" later.  This anointing of the Spirit usually does not just spontaneously happen (although it certainly could and has with guys like Paul), we must earnestly seek it.  Even then, I believe God only activates the gifts of the Spirit when they are needed.  Furthermore, it is more effectively activated when we start doing what we see God already blessing; not necesarily when we ask God to bless what we are already doing.  Jesus did what He saw His Father doing.

Just my opinion; not a statement of salvational doctrine.

[8thdaypriest]

I copied the following words from pnatt's post of Waggoner.

"There is life in the words of God. Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. The word received in faith brings the Spirit and the life of God to the soul."

So - with the "hearing" (meaning the acceptance) comes the spirit into the person, changing that person - bringing "life".    It's much, much more than simply a different type of "hearing" - of understanding something.  It's not about the receipt of information.  It's about "healing" - which affects the whole person. 

[pnattmbtc]

So pnatt, you believe the "spirit within" means simply that God is communicating with someone, and that person is listening and responding to what he/she "hears" or "feels" ?  Is that about right?

I think I prefer putting it the way I did.  The key point is that everything happens in the mind.  I don't think anything meaningful is happening viz a viz the Spirit that does not involve the mind.  I also think that being "filled with the Spirit" is a metaphor, similar to "Jesus dwells in our heart".  I don't believe Jesus literally dwells in our heart, but this idea does communicate something meaningful to us, and I believe being filled with the Spirit is similar.

[pnattmbtc]

I copied the following words from pnatt's post of Waggoner.

"There is life in the words of God. Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. The word received in faith brings the Spirit and the life of God to the soul."

So - with the "hearing" (meaning the acceptance) comes the spirit into the person, changing that person - bringing "life".    It's much, much more than simply a different type of "hearing" - of understanding something.  It's not about the receipt of information.  It's about "healing" - which affects the whole person. 

Does it effect the person in some way which does involve the mind?  If the answer is "no", then we're talking about a way of communicating things which happen to the mind.  If the answer is "yes", I'll await seeing what that is.  I'll anticipate the idea that the whole being is impacted by the Spirit, but I believe this all happens by means of what happens in the mind as well, as the mind governs the whole being. 

[8thdaypriest]

Does it effect the person in some way which does involve the mind?  If the answer is "no", then we're talking about a way of communicating things which happen to the mind.  If the answer is "yes", I'll await seeing what that is.  I'll anticipate the idea that the whole being is impacted by the Spirit, but I believe this all happens by means of what happens in the mind as well, as the mind governs the whole being. 

Well - it effected the paralytic, in his body.  He got up and walked home.  He was healed - instantly. 

I realize this does NOT happen for most people, when they first believe. 

[JoeMo]

Does it effect the person in some way which does involve the mind?  If the answer is "no", then we're talking about a way of communicating things which happen to the mind.  If the answer is "yes", I'll await seeing what that is.  I'll anticipate the idea that the whole being is impacted by the Spirit, but I believe this all happens by means of what happens in the mind as well, as the mind governs the whole being.

When you ask if it involves the mind, I'm going to assumr that you mean some logical and cognitive higher function.  The Spirit can work that way; but I think He mostly works at the "heart" level - emotional and subconscious.  Yes, that material does eventually make its way to your mind; but the convition comes from your heart.  Many times I have said or done things that in hindsight appear to be Spirit-led; but I was not even aware of that possibility when I was speaking the words or performing the act.

An example is the gift of a prayer language ("glossolalia" or "speaking in tongues")  I received that gift several years ago at an impartation service; and believe me; it wasn't stuff that I was consciously thinking about.   It just happened.  Not "ba-ba-ba-ba ba" or "phtphtphtpht"; but a full-blown language with words and syntax and grammar.   The gift of tongues is usually not necessary for anything except individual self-edification (unless you receive the gift of a known language).

The gift of healing is one that is for the good of the church rather than the individual.  It is definitely not intellectual; there is no human logic or recipe that makes it work.  In fact, it's intellectually absurd.  But it's real; it works!  I've seen it!

[8thdaypriest]

I've never had that particular "gift" of a prayer "language".  I don't know anyone with that "gift" - 'cept you of course.

I agree, that the action of the spirit, can affect the "heart" (the emotions).  People "feel" that something is right, or wrong. 

Other people - mostly non-believing co-workers or bosses, did things that seemed uncharacteristic of them. 

I used to provide anesthesia.  There were times that I would just have a "feeling" that I needed to go check on a patient, or enter the hospital by the front door rather than the back, etc. etc. etc.  Once I got that feeling, for no apparent reason.  The case had gone just fine.  I found the man in shock.  If I had not found him just when I did, and then taken him straight to the OR, he would have died. 

I remember, a locum assignment cancelled without the required 2 weeks notice.  I was upset.  I didn't have time to get another job assignment.  If I HAD taken another assignment, I would have been far from home, in a motel room, just after 9/11/01.  I'm quite sure that the LORD "moved things around" causing that employer to cancel my assignment, so I could be home with my husband at that awful time. 

[JoeMo]

I used to provide anesthesia.  There were times that I would just have a "feeling" that I needed to go check on a patient, or enter the hospital by the front door rather than the back, etc. etc. etc.  Once I got that feeling, for no apparent reason.  The case had gone just fine.  I found the man in shock.  If I had not found him just when I did, and then taken him straight to the OR, he would have died.

I remember, a locum assignment cancelled without the required 2 weeks notice.  I was upset.  I didn't have time to get another job assignment.  If I HAD taken another assignment, I would have been far from home, in a motel room, just after 9/11/01.  I'm quite sure that the LORD "moved things around" causing that employer to cancel my assignment, so I could be home with my husband at that awful time.

Many people would call these "coincidences"; and think you a bit weird for thinking of these things as the Lord speaking to you.  I call them divine utterances.  you hear them and obey; so God keeps sending them your way.

I'll bet you've had the opposite experience too - thinking the Father has told you something; but it was just your imagination.  I wish I could consistently tell the difference.

For the record concerning my "prayer language" - I NEVER use it in public worship; in fact I rarely use it at all except late at night in times of distress or excitement when I run out of English, but I'm not dome worshipping yet.  I generally like to know what I'm praying about; but how many times and ways can you say "I love you Lord" or "praised be the Name of the Lord" or "Alleluia" or "please do this for me; please, please do this for me please, please, please"? 

[pnattmbtc]

When you ask if it involves the mind, I'm going to assumr that you mean some logical and cognitive higher function.  The Spirit can work that way; but I think He mostly works at the "heart" level - emotional and subconscious.  Yes, that material does eventually make its way to your mind; but the convition comes from your heart.  Many times I have said or done things that in hindsight appear to be Spirit-led; but I was not even aware of that possibility when I was speaking the words or performing the act.

An example is the gift of a prayer language ("glossolalia" or "speaking in tongues")  I received that gift several years ago at an impartation service; and believe me; it wasn't stuff that I was consciously thinking about.   It just happened.  Not "ba-ba-ba-ba ba" or "phtphtphtpht"; but a full-blown language with words and syntax and grammar.   The gift of tongues is usually not necessary for anything except individual self-edification (unless you receive the gift of a known language).

The gift of healing is one that is for the good of the church rather than the individual.  It is definitely not intellectual; there is no human logic or recipe that makes it work.  In fact, it's intellectually absurd.  But it's real; it works!  I've seen it!

It's not literally in the heart, which is a muscle, but in the mind.  It doesn't have to be limited to logical and cognitive higher functions though. 

[pnattmbtc]

Well - it effected the paralytic, in his body.  He got up and walked home.  He was healed - instantly. 

I realize this does NOT happen for most people, when they first believe. 

I'm not seeing the connection to being filled with the Spirit and being healed.  One can be healed without being filled with the Spirit, right?  If we accept the idea that being filled with the Spirit involved being in harmony with God, then God would have free reign to heal you.  It seems to me that this is more in line with what happens then that being with the Spirit results in being healed.  I think one can be filled with the Spirit and not be healed, and be healed without being filled with the Spirit. 

[pnattmbtc]

John 17 was one of the texts mentioned in the OP.  Here's a portion of John 17:

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 

This is a metaphor, isn't it?  Jesus says "that they also may be in us".  Our being "in God and Jesus" (the "us" of Jesus' prayer), is a metaphor, isn't it? 

[JoeMo]

I agree that one doesn't need to be filled with the Spirit to be healed; but what about the need to be filled with the Spirit for God to use you to heal others with any degree of consistency? Or to bring prophetic or wisdom-filled words to others?

[JoeMo]

John 17 was one of the texts mentioned in the OP.  Here's a portion of John 17:

This is a metaphor, isn't it?  Jesus says "that they also may be in us".  Our being "in God and Jesus" (the "us" of Jesus' prayer), is a metaphor, isn't it?

Not to me.  If I am part of the body of Christ; and he is the Head, I consider it to be literal in the spiritual sense, but it's not like a "parable" which is indeed a "story".

[8thdaypriest]

John 17 was one of the texts mentioned in the OP.  Here's a portion of John 17:

This is a metaphor, isn't it?  Jesus says "that they also may be in us".  Our being "in God and Jesus" (the "us" of Jesus' prayer), is a metaphor, isn't it? 

So by "in" - Jesus meant "perfectly in agreement" or "in sync" ??  So "in" is a metaphor for "in agreement" ?

[8thdaypriest]

I'm wondering if we can learn anything about divine "indwelling" by looking at demonic "possession".

I'm thinking about being "possessed" by demonic angels.  Jesus "cast out" demons, as did the Apostles.  The "in" or "out" agrees with the concept of being "indwelt".  Now - I've always thought of demon "possession" as simply control of the mind by a demon, who has taken over.  There's no restraint of that demon.  He sort of "owns" his victim, during his tenure of "possession".   Jesus used a parable about a "house" being "swept clean" of demons, who later return and move "in" again.  

The terms "in" vs "out" are used, because the power of the demon is exerted "in" the mind.  Demons can communicate "thoughts" to the human mind. 

I believe that we humans were created to be indwelt - by the spirit of God.  Because we were created to be indwelt, demons can also take advantage of this "feature" of the human mind.  They can take over a human mind, UNLESS that person is protected by God and His angels.  Now - I don't believe that demons actually merge with the humans they "possess", but they certainly can speak thru those humans (without that human's consent).  And the LORD did the same thing to Baalam.    

The story of Saul, when "the spirit of the LORD" "left" him, and then an evil spirit then came upon him, is instructive. 

[8thdaypriest]

We're talking about two different things. 

Christ IN me - and - my being "in" Christ. 

One would be the spirit of Christ strongly influencing my mind.  The other would be my accepting or positive response.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree that one doesn't need to be filled with the Spirit to be healed; but what about the need to be filled with the Spirit for God to use you to heal others with any degree of consistency? Or to bring prophetic or wisdom-filled words to others?

What's I've been suggesting is that being filled with the Spirit is a metaphor, communicating one's desire to respond to the Spirit and do the Spirit's bidding.  Of course, human beings do not have the power to heal outside of normal medical practices, so it is God who does the healing.  The believer responds to the Spirit's prompting, prays for God to heal someone, and God heals the person.  That's my understanding.

Regarding prophesy, God communicates to the mind, and the person communicates to others what God has communicated to him.

 

[8thdaypriest]

What's I've been suggesting is that being filled with the Spirit is a metaphor, communicating one's desire to respond to the Spirit and do the Spirit's bidding.  Of course, human beings do not have the power to heal outside of normal medical practices, so it is God who does the healing.  The believer responds to the Spirit's prompting, prays for God to heal someone, and God heals the person.  That's my understanding.

Regarding prophesy, God communicates to the mind, and the person communicates to others what God has communicated to him.

 

I think Peter said that he didn't heal the blind man.  God did.