Body bad; the soul, good

[Robert]

Here's the typical, Evangelical teaching on the body & soul:

"The Christian's soul goes immediately to the presence of the Lord. The Christian's body rests in the grave until the day the Lord comes back for His church when it will be resurrected into a glorious body and be reunited with the soul."

In a nutshell Evangelicals are stating that the body is evil and the soul good.

I'll attempt to make their argument for them and then, I'll argue against it from the point of justification by faith. 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

In a nutshell Evangelicals are stating that the body is evil and the soul good.

I'll attempt to make their argument for them .....

Paul calls our fallen bodies sin.  Here's his statement: 

"...Our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" Rom 6:6

In Romans 8:10 Paul states that "the body is dead because of sin".  Not dead literally, but spiritually. 

In Philippians 3:21 Paul calls the body "vile".  Once again the body is sinful, it's bad.

Now, what about the Soul?

"God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

So our souls were created in God's image after His likeness before the entrance of sin.  God is immortal and therefore our souls are immortal.  They are good, holy & righteousness encased within an evil, vile, sinful body.

At death the believer's soul returns to God who made it and the body, being vile and evil, returns to dust. See Eccl 12:7

[Robert]

Now, my counter:

Q: What is justification by faith?

A: Justification by faith is our standing before God "in Christ Jesus".  We are complete "in Him".  To this we can add nothing.

Rom  4:1 What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 

Please notice that our standing before God"in Christ" through faith contains no merit; no human contribution.  There's nothing is us that has not been touched by the fall of mankind.  If there were something "good" is us then that would involve merit.  Furthermore if we have something "good" in us then that component, namely the soul, doesn't need Christ's redemption or resurrection.  It, therefore, makes it into heaven on it's own goodness.

Turn to Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin." Please notice Paul says "I", not my "body" alone, that is "I" the whole person.  

Then in verse 18 he says,  "I know that nothing good dwells within me".  And Mark says, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders....All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." See Mark 7:21,23

 Again, the idea is the whole man, body & soul, is defiled. Furthermore Ezekiel states that "The soul who sins shall die". Ez 18:20. Therefore the soul is not holy and immortal.  

Those who teach "the immortality of the soul" (and therefore its goodness) are teaching a self-righteous, legalistic, meritorious doctrine that opposes the truth of justification by faith.  This is therefore salvation by works and opposed to the gospel of Christ.

The believer's hope is the resurrection where the whole person, body, soul and spirit, will be "changed" and made holy, just and righteous. Only then will we be able to say "I am holy, body, soul and spirit".

[LifeHiscost]

 

The believer's hope is the resurrection where the whole person, body, soul and spirit, will be "changed" and made holy, just and righteous. Only then will we be able to say "I am holy, body, soul and spirit".

It sounds as if there are three entities being entertained as opposed to body and soul.

6 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.....2

The breath of life made man a living soul. There was nothing put into man except the life giving breath of God.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

http://www.jacksequeira.org/beyond15.htm

[Robert]

Now I'll quote Ellen White:

Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him.

 

[Gail]

When I read your topic starter and title I thought, Oh, how Greek! And those of the early church (not apostolic) took that further with self-flagellation and self-abnegation

[JoeMo]

The pattern of thought that the body was evil and the soul is good is at the root of Gnosticism; where people were encouraged to experience all the fleshly evil they wanted to; because the body was evil and would be destroyed anyways.  As long as you kept your soul pure.  Don't ask me how that worked.  At any rate, scripture says "the soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:4).  I'll take that as truth.

[Robert]

  At any rate, scripture says "the soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:4).  I'll take that as truth.

And we've all sinned, plus we have bodies polluted with selfish desires.  Therefore we will die what the Bible terms the first death.  I have nothing in me that can merit salvation.  When I die body, soul and spirit ceases to exist.  All three depend on each other.  One ceases, they all stop.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

Now I'll quote Ellen White:

Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him.

 

No dissent. Yea and amen would be appropriate. However as soon as one arrives at this conclusion immediately below, that is soul being seen as something other than the breath of life_____________

 

So our souls were created in God's image after His likeness before the entrance of sin.  God is immortal and therefore our souls are immortal.  They are good, holy & righteousness encased within an evil, vile, sinful body.

At death the believer's soul returns to God who made it and the body, being vile and evil, returns to dust. See

______one leaves themselves wide open for the interpretation that there is a separate thinking entity apart from God that is immortal and can appear to us under other circumstances masquerading as a previously expired individual, here to tell us the "truth".

Our souls (us) do not take on immortality until a certain point of time yet to be established for all those whose names are written in the book of Life.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory....1 Corinthians 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

[Robert]

 

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality....

 

The "when", of course, is at the 2nd coming.  Then those who are asleep will be resurrected "changed". 

In reality no believer who has died is asleep.  They are dead, but because they have been delivered from under the law, their death is not eternal.  In that respect it's like a sleep since they will come to life again, but in a sinless, immortal state.

It is this eternal death, that is, the 2nd death, which is the curse of the law, that the believer in Christ doesn't have to experience.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

  They are dead, but......, their death is not eternal.  In that respect it's like a sleep since they will come to life again, but in a sinless, immortal state.

It is this eternal death, that is, the 2nd death, which is the curse of the law, that the believer in Christ doesn't have to experience.

I like to think of the experience as Jesus voiced it.

…25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?".....John 11

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

It is this eternal death, that is, the 2nd death, which is the curse of the law, that the believer in Christ doesn't have to experience.

Given that you equate the 2nd death with eternal death, do you think that Christ died the 2nd death at Cavalry?  I ask this not as a challenge; but just your opinion.  I used to think He did; but now I'm not so sure.

[Robert]

Given that you equate the 2nd death with eternal death, do you think that Christ died the 2nd death at Cavalry?  I ask this not as a challenge; but just your opinion.  I used to think He did; but now I'm not so sure.

Yes, Christ as the son of man died eternally.  As God He never died.  As EGW states, "Deity did not sink and die".

Bible?  Okay:

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh (Greek: sarx). Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh (sarx), yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ (this side of the cross) he is a new creation....(in Christ).

Notice, that before the resurrection Christ was "according to the flesh (sarx)".  Sarx is our human frailty, indwelt by our bent-to-self.  That life died eternally. At the resurrection Christ, as a man, was given a "new creation".  So the risen Christ isn't the one according to the flesh.  The risen Christ is God plus a glorified man like Adam before the fall, only much more....

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

This might help clarify:

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

 

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

 

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

 

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

 

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

 

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

 

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

 

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. (JS)

Edited September 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 There's nothing is us that has not been touched by the fall of mankind.  If there were something "good" is us then that would involve merit.  Furthermore if we have something "good" in us then that component, namely the soul, doesn't need Christ's redemption or resurrection.  It, therefore, makes it into heaven on it's own goodness.

And that's my main issue with this doctrine (i.e., "the immortality of the soul").  

Now it is true that most Protestants see Adventists as a cult. And while there is a cultist element within the SDA denomination, the Sunday keeping denominations  are not without error.  Both "the immortality of the soul" and "Sunday sacredness"  are grievous errors. Both attack the platform of justification by faith alone.  Hence the majority of Protestants are in harmony with Rome. 

[JoeMo]

Both "the immortality of the soul" and "Sunday sacredness"  are grievous errors. Both attack the platform of justification by faith alone.  Hence the majority of Protestants are in harmony with Rome. 

OTOH, God's "church" transcends denominations.  I believe that there are many in Sunday-keeping denominations (as well as Adventism) who will readily abandon any and all doctrinal denominational error in favor of following Christ into the Kingdom.  There will be no more quibbling over the fine points which we are eager to address now with so much passion and vigor.  All we will want to do is follow the Lamb wherever he leads.  After all - He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light!  Correct/incorrect doctrine or interpretation of prophecy will be a thing of the past.

I hope we can all think of other stuff to talk about. 

[Robert]

OTOH, God's "church" transcends denominations. 

True....I do not go to church myself.

 

 I believe that there are many in Sunday-keeping denominations (as well as Adventism) who will readily abandon any and all doctrinal denominational error in favor of following Christ into the Kingdom.  

Sure...of course.  

There will be no more quibbling over the fine points which we are eager to address now with so much passion and vigor.  

Quibbling? Let's look at Peter's statement concerning Paul.

2 Peter 3:14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[Robert]

....Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him.... There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Here's an example:

2 Cor 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Now this is twisted, out of context, to mean when we die our spirit goes to God and the body back to dust.

This is commonly accepted in Christianity today by two groups of believers:

1] Ignorant

2] Not ignorant, but are desiring to draw off disciples to themselves. 

The latter (#2) are in danger, according to Peter, to their own destruction.

Why?  Because this doctrine attacks the platform by which we are saved. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

 

  Correct/incorrect doctrine or interpretation of prophecy will be a thing of the past.

The principles last for eternity, along with the everlasting covenant.

 

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.....John 5
 

God is Love!   Jesus saves!