Adventists in Scandinavia Discontinue Ordination for All Pastors

[Unchained]

Adventists in Scandinavia Discontinue Ordination for All Pastors

 

“The Adventist national denominational organizations in parts of Europe have decided to discontinue the practice of clergy ordination altogether, in the wake of the vote against ordaining women pastors at the General Conference (GC) Session in July.”

 

read more here: http://atoday.org/adventists-in-scandinavia-discontinue-ordination-for-men.html

 

Spectrum also reported about this:

 

Adventist Church in Norway Will No Longer Ordain Any Pastors

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/09/22/adventist-church-norway-will-no-longer-ordain-any-pastors

 

Adventist Church in Denmark Joins Norway in Suspending All Ordinations

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/09/23/adventist-church-denmark-joins-norway-suspending-all-ordinations

[nuff sed]

And what does this little 'temper tantrum" gain them??  Nuff Sed......

 

[Unchained]

And what does this little 'temper tantrum" gain them??  Nuff Sed......

 

In Norway they haven't been ordaining ministers since 2012. This can hardly be “a temper tantrum” then. In fact, one of those who was quoted in the article said that he thought the GC decision was providential.

Quote: “We see God’s guidance in the San Antonio vote. A ‘yes’ would easily have overshadowed the underlying theological concerns our five year study process has unveiled.”

[GayatfootofCross]

“We do this to eliminate the possibility that our category of ‘pastor’ is  simply converted to ‘commissioned’ or ‘ordained’,  said Kvinge. “We want the world church to know that we no longer use these distinctions, because they carry connotations of a spiritual hierarchy.”

We sinners being naturally arrogant and ignorant don't create good Fruit with a church pecking order (that it becomes) .. so I understand that statement.

It is by nature Top Heavy that can topple.

On the basis of this request and the statement on equality, which is based on a biblical understanding that both man and woman is created in the image of God and that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts equally to women and men, it was 20th September 2015 voted in the Union Executive Committee to move away from the terms ordination and commission but from now on simply “set apart pastors.”

“And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
²⁹ Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days."  Joel 2:28,29

amen

[CoAspen]

'Temper tantrum'....? Really? Just because they decided to stop a man made function?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I saw this a few days ago.  I'm still wondering what their reasoning is for not sending a list of current pastors to the SDA Yearbook... there *must* be some reason, other than just "to make a point" -- because what *point* would be made??  (see below)

 “Until a classification of pastors is established—a classification without a distinction based on a fundamental discrimination against female pastors—the Norwegian Union Conference will not report employed pastors who are serving in our area to the SDA Yearbook.”

 

[GayatfootofCross]

wow

I saw this a few days ago.  I'm still wondering what their reasoning is for not sending a list of current pastors to the SDA Yearbook... there *must* be some reason, other than just "to make a point" -- because what *point* would be made??  (see below)

 

[Naomi]

I saw this a few days ago.  I'm still wondering what their reasoning is for not sending a list of current pastors to the SDA Yearbook... there *must* be some reason, other than just "to make a point" -- because what *point* would be made??  (see below)

 

Good question??? 

[aka]

Why is it not to be read anywhere that SDA women Pastor's salaries are equal to what male Pastors earn? I've never seen the comparision being put to print.

When you do away with the herarchy of positional status titles like  Norway, Danemark did, you have a job status that is equal to one word..... "Pastor"

If the workload is equal to what is expected for the men then the same salary should be paid to the woman doing the same workload.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Adventist pastors in the United States are paid the same regardless of their gender, if employed by the same Conference and in the same area and with the same length of service.

 

 

 

[Unchained]

I saw this a few days ago.  I'm still wondering what their reasoning is for not sending a list of current pastors to the SDA Yearbook... there *must* be some reason, other than just "to make a point" -- because what *point* would be made??  (see below)

 

I agree, that bit about the SDA Yearbook is a bit unclear to me too.

As far as I know pastors are listed according to their credentials in the SDA Yearbook. In other words, they're listed as “ordained ministers” and “commissioned ministers”

Anyways, I can ask around and see if I get someone to elaborate about that bit.

 

[Unchained]

The full text (in English) of the document that was adopted can be downloaded here:
http://www.adventist.no/Media/Adventist/Pdf-filer/Ordination-Looking-Ahead

The final paragraph was quite interesting:

“Based on information from well informed sources, the GC is requested to appoint an impartial
commission to investigate allegations that some delegates at the GC Session in San Antonio
in 2015 were required to vote no on the question concerning ordination, and that they would
be held accountable for their vote on returning to their home area. If there are realities behind
these allegations, this is both a violation of the basic democratic vision within SDA and a
threat to the democratic processes used by SDA at all levels. In case these statements
describe a real situation, this raises a serious question regarding the value of the entire vote
that was conducted in San Antonio. On the basis of the votes cast, a mere 203 no votes
changed to yes votes, would have changed a no majority to a yes majority.”

[Unchained]

I saw this a few days ago.  I'm still wondering what their reasoning is for not sending a list of current pastors to the SDA Yearbook... there *must* be some reason, other than just "to make a point" -- because what *point* would be made??  (see below)

 

I'm told that this shouldn't really be interpreted as a protest. They wouldn't mind sending in a list of their pastors to the yearbook. They're merely being realistic. They realize that their own distinction (pastors/interns) most likely won't be accepted, and in turn they are unwilling to have their employees listed according to the old categories.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Editors of the YEARBOOK reserve the right to edit  the information given to them to comply with "official" SDA standards.  Thus, the potential is there for the YEARBOOK editors to list certain of the "pastors" as "ordained" and to list other pastors in other catagories.  The involved Conferences did not want this to happen.  In an attempt to prevent it from happening they  intend to not supply such information as they would prefer to have no listing than to have a listing the does not comply with their wishes. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

kinda makes it difficult to locate anyone, then, doesn't it?

And don't the Yearbook editors have anything else to do than to research down whether or not a listed pastor is ordained or not??  

I'm to the point where I'd be just as happy having NOBODY "ordained" - I think it's given way too much importance in the grand scheme of life..

[Stan]

And what does this little 'temper tantrum" gain them??  Nuff Sed......

 

I believe the issue is this, they can remain being a licensed Church operating which provides them with being able to get tax receipts and other tax benefits.

[Gregory Matthews]

Tax benefits:  These will vary from country to country and I have no reason to assume that any other country has tax benefits similar to those in the U.S.

NOTE:  I lived for several years in both Asia and in Central America.  I never once heard SDAs mention tax benefits similar to those in the U.S.  Perhaps they had them.  perhaps they did not.  I simply do not know.

[nuff sed]

and what will this mean to those "already ordained"...Will they now be 'defrocked' ?  Nuff Sed

[Kevin H]

Nuff Sed: The idea of ordination was that the person had enough experience to be considered proficient and an "Elder" who could guide others. There are the verses of mostly Paul that are taken out of their historical and literary context and read with and interpreted by a person's imagination. This have been understood as women not speaking etc. Some women speakers in other churches find that the men turn their chairs around when they speak. The same thought pattern appeals to a number of Adventists. Except that if they followed their "proof texts" to a tee they would have to reject Mrs. White. So they created an Adventist tap dance and interpret their proof texts as a woman can do everything that it looks like Paul says that they can't do just as long as they are not ordained. Paul was not talking about unordained women when he wrote those verses but only if we want to ordain them do those verses come into play.

The Adventist church has indeed been ordaining women they just set up loopholes and theological summersaults so that they don't have the "O" word applied to them. To ordain women would actually make it easier for the church as we can be open and honest about what we are doing and have been doing right along for a number of years. However it would upset members who are trying to compromise between being a good conservative Christian (for some reason Adventist have a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists) and their approach to the key texts they use from Paul.

All we have are inexperienced pastors and experienced pastors. The word "Ordination" was used to mean an experienced pastor, but in Norway they will no longer use the term due to the controversy and the Adventist tap dance to want to accept tradition from some conservative groups but not throw out Mrs. White in the process.

[Tom Wetmore]

and what will this mean to those "already ordained"...Will they now be 'defrocked' ?  Nuff Sed

Since the commissioning service/ceremony is in substance virtually identical to an ordination service, other than one word and the resulting credential issued, the obvious answer is no. (If you watch a video of each without the sound, you would likely not be able to tell the difference.) The credential is periodically reissued.  The initiation ceremony is not repeated.  So the clear and umabiguous intent is that all pastors in the conference will all receive the same credential without regard to gender.  To avoid offending those who oppose the recognition of the call of women using the word "ordained", the credential will avoid the use of that offensive word for everyone.  The synonym that seems to not upset anyone is "commissioned", so that will be used instead.  At least until somebody figures out a reason to find that to be offensive too.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Tom Wetmore

[aka]

Above Tom Wetmore's post is Kevin H post. It started off as if it was quoting Nuff Sed.    But how much of the statements came from N.sed? 

If the whole of the posting is the innermost thought life of Kevin's than please let me applaud him for such sound reasoning. Kevin you are in the know about this issue. And this what you wrote helped me to finally understand the confusion of 'women be silent in church' but Ellen may blow her horn as loud as she wants to.

"So they created an Adventist tap dance and interpret their proof texts as a woman can do everything that it looks like Paul says that they can't do just as long as they are not ordained."

[Kevin H]

A little history of Corinth where Paul wrote for women to be silent. Corinth was a sea port town where most of the population was transit. People would come from all over the world. Husbands would do business for a few months or years then go home, frequently bringing their families with them.  Paul found this situation good to teach people then they bring the message home.

Outside of Israel,(Israel was literate, at least the equivalent of a 6th grade reading level because of the Bible).  most of the world was illiterate.  Women even more so. In Corinth the men would speak Greek, maybe Latin as well as their local languages. Their wives tended to only know their home language. They would friend those from their countries.

Church in Corinth would be difficult for the women. You could either translate every few lines into each language or just have the service in Greek where the husbands could understand then they could teach their wives.

This is the issue that Paul was facing and that we need to remember as we study the text.

The two theories from people who do not know the historical situation are the one that Paul did not want women to speak in church Or the liberal view that also says that Paul did not want women to speak for what ever reason but he was a victim of his times and it does not apply today.

However, knowing the history we have a lot more options....

And I cannot take credit for being too original. It is based on things I learned over the years, especially at AUC, the Seminary, Loma Linda, and the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, and things that have been pointed out in this discussion forum.  One excellent book if : Jim Fleming's "Attitudes towards Women in the Bible." Dr. Fleming has a 5 lecture series that I heard a number of years ago  on the topic. http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=58

Edited September 28, 2015 by Kevin H

[pierrepaul]

  I'm to the point where I'd be just as happy having NOBODY "ordained" - I think it's given way too much importance in the grand scheme of life..

Ordination, as practiced by the SdAs, is mostly a carryover of the Catholic tradition of segregating out a professional clergy from the lay masses. IMO this distinction has no place in a bible-believing church.

[GayatfootofCross]

A lot of stuff carried over from the Catholic Services. In the beginning ..Church was at homes facing each other and people testified. Not facing away from each other. Face to face! Holding each other up. I notice many people are very uncomfortable with that. Many 12 Step groups face each other understanding we are all equal. No one is the center focus. But the Higher power (JESUS CHRIST).

Our Church is to reflect that!

 

What a Christian Culture we have created. Don't even know how we have already followed the Beast ..just in this alone. Our Very Services!

[minky]

At the July GC there were more female delegates than men, if the women alone voted for the ordination it would have passed.   The question:  Is ordination biblical ?