if Columbus hadn't discovered North America...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If Christopher Columbus hadn't discovered America (and it *was* a discovery to the Europeans), what would have been the state of North America, as well as the world, today?

The Crusades had already happened.

The warlords of Asia had already invented gunpowder and associated weapons.

The Black Death that killed approx 40% of Europe's population had already happened.

The printing press had already been invented.

Native Americans and Asian peoples were already using herbs in medicines.

 

What would North America look like today if it had been left untouched?  Would the Native Americans/First Peoples still be living in pristine wilderness?  And would their violence have escalated to the point of the Asian warlords? Would there be communication beyond the drums and smoke signals?  Would diseases have developed via mutations and spontaneously without the introduction of pathogens by Europeans?  

Would North America still be ravaged by forest fires and droughts?

Would North America more resemble some of the undeveloped areas of Africa, segueing from their previously *developed*, though hard, lifestyles and cultures, to that of abject poverty?  Or would "poverty" only come as a result of industrialization and the rise in power of a few?

Would North America have become over-populated?  Or would natural happenings occur (such as whatever happened in the American Southwest to the Anasazi tribe)?

Would world history be altered, insofar as discoveries of medicines and other scientific advancements, and the development of the industrial revolution?  (Insulin for diabetes, by the way, was developed in Canada.)  Would there have been "world" wars?  If so, who might have won?

(just some ponderings, as Columbus Day on October 12 is coming up, celebrated in the US, Spain, and many countries in Central and South America...)

 

[GayatfootofCross]

All very good questions. I look forward to hearing some ideas on this.

Myself..my mind is flyin this way and that and can't land anywhere.

 

# Even one question did that!

[Gerr]

Someone else would have discovered it.  There is evidence that the Vikings already discovered it long before Columbus did.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
Sp

[phkrause]

Hadn't native Americans already been living here??

[Gerr]

You are right, PK, but I understood Pam to mean by Europeans.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Hadn't native Americans already been living here??

it would help if folks read what I wrote before writing a comment like the above..

[Gail]

The book, 1492, describes the evidence we have today that the anteEuropean North Americans were pretty advanced, i.e.- they changed landscapes to either bring in food or be able to grow it in otherwise useless places. And this they did without destroying the biodiversity (unlike those in Brazil today). Google, "black earth" to see how the S Americans created soil that would be arable for a thousand years:

Black earth soil

[Gail]

That plus the medicines they got from whatever was around them. They did not have time enough to discover what would help against the newly immigrated European diseases and of course we know how devastating the result of that was.

The question is a great one! I doubt that we will ever know half of the First Nation innovations of old.

[phkrause]

it would help if folks read what I wrote before writing a comment like the above..

I did read what you wrote!! There's never a post I don't read, period. Sorry to even have commented. Will try not to make that mistake again!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**sigh**  

I intentionally made the OP as a non-issue about the Native Americans being the First Nations on North America.  I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped.  I didn't want the thread turned into a commentary on how the evil Christopher Columbus and his syphilis-ridden sailors came to the New World, and forever after, the Native Americans have been on the short end of the stick.

I just thought this would be an interesting kick to the imagination...

my bad.

[CoAspen]

Not a bad idea! Yes, It does make one wonder. Maybe it would have delayed the ending of the country, as it was before the 'discovery', but my feeling is that the change was inevitable. But, maybe not. Who knows!

There is an author who writes books about an alternate ending to WW2 and what the world was like after. Would be interesting to read what his fertile mind could come up with.

[Kevin H]

Columbus was more the conquest of the Americas rather than the discovery. Of course we were here 500 years earlier (the Vikings of course). And the History channel a few weeks ago reshowed a program of a number of other potential people from Europe, Asia and Polynesia prior to Columbus. According to the book "Lies my Teacher told me" the Phoenicians were making occasional trips here in the time of Hezekiah (while there ships were too small to do much trade or to come often, they could have brought missionaries and have brought Hezekiah's reformation to the world).  I even read an article once that there was evidence that some Scandinavians may have come back around the time that Abraham lived. There is evidence that Columbus was interested in the travels of an Irish priest who may have come as well as the Vikings, and thus was aware of the land over here.

It would have been interesting had Hezekiah's reformation spread through out the world. And it would have been interesting to learn what would have happened here had Columbus not come and started the conquest of America.

[lazarus]

I agree with Kevin H. Conquest is more appropriate than discovery although word on the street is that Columbus did not land in North America at all, ever.

To me the OP is like asking, "what if Hitler' hadn't liberated Poland?'. Not tryin to start a fight Rudy just sayin'

Edited October 11, 2015 by lazarus

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay... let's just all attack the OP, and turn this thread into soliloquys on the the wicked and evil Christopher Columbus, how he conquered North America, or, alternatively, how he didn't step foot on North American soil, how Native Americans were all brutalized, etc, etc, etc.

So much for the notion of what North America and the world might be like today, if Europeans hadn't stepped foot on the continent...

(by the way, the OP was presented by someone with Native American heritage)

[lazarus]

So much for the notion of what North America and the world might be like today, if Europeans hadn't stepped foot on the continent...

I'm simply questioning the premise of the OP. It's Ok to do that, after all its a discussion board.

So...... on with the original question.

[Kevin H]

Not trying to attack what Columbus did. He was trying to explore the world and for trade routes. Just that there appears to have been connections between the area over here and over there and that Columbus had an awareness of these contacts. It was more what came after him when he gave all the details.

[LynnDel]

It's an interesting premise. Perhaps someone has written a "what if" novel on this topic. If not, they should.

[GayatfootofCross]

I found this fascinating map (excuse the politics)

 

I am not educated enough to address the most interesting  questions in the OP..but i have been looking at all the posts thereafter and understand the intent.

At the end of this post I will share a picture from my colourful Imagination!

I am only able to focus on one thought at a time and settled on the Anasazi  as a jumping off point (pun intended)

..........................................

Ancestral Puebloans

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

"Anasazi" redirects here. For other uses, see Anasazi (disambiguation).

 

Cliff Palace, Mesa Verde National Park

 

White House Ruins, Canyon de Chelly National Monument

The Ancestral Puebloans were an ancient Native American culture that spanned the present-day Four Corners region of the United States, comprising southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwestern New Mexico, and southwestern Colorado.^[1] It is believed that the Ancestral Puebloans developed, at least in part, from the Oshara Tradition, who developed from the Picosa culture. They lived in a range of structures that included small family pit houses, larger clan type structures, grand pueblos, and cliff sited dwellings. The Ancestral Puebloans possessed a complex network that stretched across the Colorado Plateau linking hundreds of communities and population centers. They held a distinct knowledge of celestial sciences that found form in their architecture. The Kiva, a congregational space that was used for ceremonial purposes chiefly, were an integral part of this ancient peoples community structure.

In contemporary times, the people and their archaeological culture were referred to as Anasazi for historical purposes, a name which arises from the Navajo language. Anaasází, roughly meaning "ancient ones" or "ancient enemies" depending on how it is used, is not preferred by contemporary Puebloans^[2][3] though it is still utilized by speakers of Diné bizaad.

Archaeologists continue to debate when this distinct culture emerged. The current consensus, based on terminology defined by the Pecos Classification, suggests their emergence around the 12th century BCE, during the archaeologically designated Early Basketmaker II Era. Beginning with the earliest explorations and excavations, researchers identified Ancestral Puebloans as the forerunners of contemporary Pueblo peoples.^[1][3]....

^{...................................................................................................................}

^{GET READY FOR A RIDE!}

^{Seeing  the marvelous ways of adapting in such a beautiful pristine SouthWest America (not named America..if not taken over by my ancestors). And knowing to some degree their ( i.e. many tribes) ancient respect for mother earth..echoing God's First Madate...} And God blessed them [granting them certain authority] and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subjugate it [putting it under your power]; and rule over (dominate) the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and every living thing that moves upon the earth.” Gen 1:28.

Puttin forth All tribes with Respect for the Environment would be the driving force. And Gods handi works would be predominantly displayed and Marveled at and inspire Deep Reverence and Love for GOD.

We can conclude that the way it was for thousands of years can continue (if not bothered/annihilated by my Western European God Fearing Ancestors) for a thousand more. Ancient remedies and cures from nature could cure many of the world's ills. And Native Americans can take the World Stage as Natural Healers. The deep rain forests  would stay pristine and help/heal the global atmosphere of the scourge of Industrial China ...as well as the total destruction of Western and Eastern Europe by the Germans.  Natural insulins found in South America and exotic plants and fruits would be discovered and utilized in fair trade and bartering. As well as the Cure for cancers and heart disease. Our Rain Forests are ripe with them undiscovered. Living in total Symbiosis to the climate.crops,and culture. Many Ancient Native Americans recognize Same sex orientated People  are more spiritual than the regular hum drum heteros and will Teach the People (not about sex). Hand made Crafts and art would be sold around the world. Gold and Silver in the Western Hills shipped around the world. and extracted Naturally (No Mercury used.)  People from all around the world would forgo their modern living just to vacation here in the more agreeable climates. But must go back home to the busy electronic/chemical self destructive modern world. So not to SULLY the World as God intended. No over Fishing by the Inuits. Planting and harvest with total regard for the soil. Rich heaLTHY deep colour Foods shared freely.Popcorn and Cacao would be the Snack of choice and rice cakes would be properly used as shipping package materials. Harvesting Wind and Sun and never see a drop of black oil.

... and The Peace Pipe would be shared with heads of state at the Tribe gatherings and set the mood for everyone to Mellow out.

 

 

..  what North America and the world might be like today, if Europeans hadn't stepped foot on the continent...

(by the way, the OP was presented by someone with Native American heritage)

this made me think!

 

 

Edited October 11, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Kevin H]

I'm talking about the Columbus event as the conquest, probably more of those who followed him. Prior to Columbus there appears to have been European, Asian and Polynesian contact with this landmass over here. But it was limited visits and limited trade. Columbus had the big ships to start to explore and apparently followed the map of Vikings and an Irish priest and other histories about the land over here. And after he came for a more in-depth understanding that lead to those who were not good men like Columbus leading the conquests.

[ChildofChrist]

Columbus was not a 'good' man in the sense he came to satisfy his own greed. Yes, others came too, but it wasn't with the intent of taking people into captivity or taking what so many worked so hard for, but to live simply. Many come seeking sanctuary, yet why are they were so out numbered?

God will sort through the mess. I am thankful knowing He is judge.

[Aliensanctuary]

Human nature being what it is, maybe some big chief would have wanted to conquer and rule as much territory across the Americas as possible, maybe even from shore to shore and encompass an entire continent. Some humans, it seems, are not happy unless they are killing others and taking their stuff and their territory. One advantage of the subsistence economy of the First Settlers, (natives, that is), is that they would probably never have created huge cities, toxic pollution, and developed weapons of mass destruction.

I think that for some, if not all, of those of us chosen for the Kingdom there will be a low-technology existence, probably focused on agriculture and raising animals, but without big machines that would put many out of work. Each person would either be a member of a commune-type community, or, have enough garden space to provide for themselves with enough produce left over to give a tithe back to God for the priests and other city workers.

This might be a better world if the huge corporate farms of the world were partitioned into much smaller parcels to enable families, communes, and communities to provide for themselves. If everyone went vegetarian, there would be so much more land and water available for growing food.

[Aliensanctuary]

I suppose the "native" Americans, without industrialization, would have been no match for any civilization bent on conquest using more powerful weapons to destroy anyone in their path. If the Europeans weren't the ones who conquered the Native Americans, others would have done so eventually.

Native American organization into tribes reminds me of the similar organization of Israel into familial tribes. Maybe there will be tribal membership for those joining the Kingdom. Members assigned to the tribe of Reuben, for example, would have to enter the New Jerusalem through the Reuben Gate using their secret password written on the little white stone.

[CoAspen]

Most seem to think that the introduction of 'other cultures' was only a matter of time and the 'natives' could not have survived in their current way of life. But....what if they had not been subjugated, hunted, etc? Maybe their way of life could have been seen as just different and not interfered with. What progress would have happened if left to their own pace? Therewere tribes in the East that were quite advanced in government when compared to the Europeans. Just think, a country the progressed  quite differently than the rest of the world, maybe different methods of solving issues, varied ways of life and living! We will never know what the potential could have been, rather sad.

 

[Gail]

And who knows how their history would have turned out had the discovery/invasion been delayed for another 3-400 years?

[GayatfootofCross]

thats an interesting question. lol I remember in grade school actually hoping that by the time I was "grown up" I would be able to go back in time in a "time machine" and go back in history and change certain events and possibilities. I guess its a bit comical to think of that, yet how different would it be to how some sources basically re-write history to give it a certain slant? There is a huge subjective aspect to it all, yet, I also believe that part is important too. If Columbus had not discovered America; I believe that someone else would have. He was chosen as we all are, for our respective journeys. I would be interested to know more facts about how Columbus actually did relate to the Natives that he encountered when he came to North America. Not sure where one would find such info, or if it is available?

hi Wanderer!

I posted this link in the "Happy Columbus Day" in the Townhall

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day ...

it tells you all about how Columbus related to the Natives!

hold on tight!

 

and BTW...

The OP here wants us to just share imagination/ideas of What this Americas would be like if not discovered for awhile

the link above i am sharing can derail this badly.

u can share your thoughts about the Discoverer COLUMBAS here!

Edited October 21, 2015 by GayatfootofCross