Obedience vs Legalism

[GayatfootofCross]

I have found this to be true in my Relationships as well.. It is not easy!

Hard lessons still be learning

http://www.lightbearers.org/obedience-vs-legalism/

 

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Obedience vs Legalism

by Ty Gibson  |  October 16, 2015

A man once came to me and said, “My marriage is falling apart. My wife says she doesn’t have feelings for me anymore, and my feelings for her are pretty much dead too. I guess it’s over, huh?”

He was startled by my immediate response.

“No, it’s not over. Read the Songs of Solomon and do exactly what it says, and throw in 1 Peter 3:7 for good measure, and you will save your marriage. Not only will you save your marriage, it will become great, far better than what you ever imagined possible.”

“What,” he responded with a tone of incredulity. “Just read those Bible passages and do what they say?”

“Yes, read and obey, dude, read and obey! And all will be well,” I declared with prophet-level confidence.

Still looking skeptical, he said, “But don’t we need some marriage counseling or something?”

“You may need counseling,” I said, “if you are especially stubborn and want to take the long, painful route to repairing your marriage. Good Christian counseling can be an immense blessing and sometimes is the only way forward. But it sounds to me like you have an emergency on your hands, so I’m giving you the shortest and fastest route to heal your relationship with your wife. Counseling takes a long time, meeting after meeting after meeting, with both of you sharing feelings, feelings, feelings, and potentially making one another mad, mad, mad (exaggeration for effect). But if you want to bypass all of that and just git ‘er done, brother, read what the Bible says about marriage and obey.” 

“Um,” he said with a hesitant tone of rebellion, “just obey? That sounds to me like mindless legalism.”

“That’s because you’re a spiritual wimp,” I fired back, but with a smile to lighten the blow. “Obedience isn’t legalism, unless you believe God is an arbitrary control freak who hates you. But if you believe God is on your side, a God of tender love who has only your best interest at heart, well, then, in that case, obedience is the most intelligent course you can take.”

Obedience is not legalism.

“But we don’t love each other anymore,” he said, as if he knew what he was talking about.

“Well, then,” I explained, “here’s the first act of obedience you should engage in: stop saying that, and never, ever, say it again. Not loving your wife is not an option according to Ephesians 5:25, and according to your marriage vows. So do not express those sentiments, not one more time, ever again. And in their place, begin expressing, on a regular basis, that you love your wife. Tell her, tell yourself, tell your children, your buddies. Talk her up, not down. Tell her how amazing she is, how beautiful she is, how blessed and happy you are to be her husband.”

“But what if it’s not true?” He was trying to wiggle loose.

“If it’s not true, then expressing it will be the first step of obedience in making it true! In fact, let me tell you a secret that has been lost by our feelings-obsessed culture: feelings follow actions wherever actions lead.”

“What?! Really?”

“Yes, really! Guaranteed! Countless couples in our emotionally egocentric culture get divorced because they follow their feelings. But here’s the thing: feelings are often stupid and cannot be trusted. What you can trust is the application of sound principles, which, when applied, produce good feelings.”

“So I’m just suppose to act contrary to my feelings?” He said this as if it was the silliest thing he’d ever heard.

“Yes,” I stated with absolute firmness. “If your feelings are telling you to end your marriage, defy your feelings and call them what they are—stupid, weak, selfish feelings—and act out a different picture.”

“That sounds . . . um . . . crazy.”

“No, what’s crazy is that you would consider ending your marriage because of your feelings. What I’m telling you is that if you really want to heal your marriage, actions are the fastest way to do that. Good, sensitive, beautiful actions toward you wife will literally create a new relational dynamic between the two of you. That’s not crazy, dude, that’s what total sanity looks like.”

But this article isn’t actually about marriage. It’s about the power of obedience to God’s word. Marriage is just one example of many areas of life concerning which God has something to say. My point is that obedient action to the inherently good principles of God’s word will invariably produce positive new realities in a person’s life.If that sounds like “legalism” to you, that’s either because you have a terrible misconception of God’s character or because you need to start at ground zero and be born again.

Obedience is not legalism.

And legalism is most emphatically not obedience.

Obedience is the love-motivated process of acting in accordance with God’s word because you believe that you are living under His favor and that He only has your best interest at heart. Obedience is trust, fueled by love, in action.

Legalism, by contrast, is the anxious effort to earn God’s favor because you believe, at least on an emotional level, that God’s love is conditional and therefore that He holds you at a distance until you prove yourself worthy. It is a form of religious narcissism, a way of keeping self as one’s center while projecting the illusion of serving God.

Once you come to Jesus in response to His love, just as you are, receiving salvation as the free gift of His grace, the instructions in His word look like liberty and feel protective. You’re like, “Wow, Lord, thank You for showing me the principles of life by which I can, by Your empowering grace, repair my broken relationships and flourish in every aspect of life.”

Obedience is the love-motivated process of acting in accordance with God’s word because you believe that you are living under His favor and that He only has your best interest at heart.

Obedience, in this relational context, is voluntary, rendered from the heart. Paul says it like this:

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you” (Romans 6:16-17, KJV).

Paul is speaking here to the person who has come to Christ in response to His grace, not to the unbeliever. To those who have not embraced God’s merciful love, the idea of obedience can only feel like externally imposed bondage. But those who know God’s good character as it is revealed in Jesus make themselves voluntarily obedient to the Lord. But note Paul’s specific, qualifying language: “from the heart.” In other worlds, the obedience of the grace-immersed believer springs up from deep inside. It is composed of willing, affectionate faith that is lodged in God’s essential goodness.

There is a direct correlation between obedience and knowing. Jesus put it like this:

“If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority” (John 7:17).

According to Jesus, doing modifies knowing. One of the great rational fallacies of our scientific age is that knowledge consists of intellectual facts that reside outside of behavioral engagement. Scripture, rather, communicates a more holistic view of knowledge. We do not really come to know anything or anyone by mere objective thinking without subjective doing. In other words, one cannot truly know God by analyzing, contemplating, or intellectualizing data about God. Rather, God can only be known through what we might call experiential knowing, by relational engagement, by full-person interaction. Anything else is at best only knowing about God.

So Jesus basically says, Do what I’m telling you and you will know, once you are on the inside of the doing, that I am telling you the truth straight from God.

There are things that can only be understood from the inside. God’s word testifies to its veracity by the effects, the outcomes, the results it produces when its principles are implemented. God’s law looks and feels different from the inside than it does from the outside. Once you embrace its stunning vision of life as relational integrity, God’s law feels liberating rather than restricting. Obedience to God’s word places you in a position of commitment to people above and beyond your feelings, and sometimes contrary to them. And then—surprise, surprise—you are acting in the only manner that has the power to create positive feelings between yourself and others.

Whenever you are uncertain how to proceed with God, the safest course you can follow is to engage in active obedience.

In the case of marriage, for example, the concrete commitment of two people to one another is the only framework within which the true nature of love can be understood. If you stand on the outside quibbling about your feelings, love will gradually vanish and your commitment to the relationship will die. But if a married couple remains on the inside of absolute commitment and actively obeys God’s word by engaging in beautiful actions toward one another, they will experience positive results in the form of security, trust and, yes, positive emotional feelings.

Whenever you are uncertain how to proceed with God, the safest course you can follow is to engage in active obedience. Simply do what God says, and things will get better, clarity will come, problems will diminish, and quality of life will increase.

The guy with stupid feelings about his marriage contacted me about a year after our conversation. “I thought my marriage was over,” he testified, “and I thought that what you were telling me was crazy. But you sounded so sure that I thought I should follow your advice and see what might happen. I read the Song of Solomon and other Scriptures about marriage, and I just started treating my wife the way God’s word said I should. And it was amazing to watch her come back alive to me! She was blown away and started treating me differently. And sure enough, just like you said, our feelings for one another started getting better and better, and now its like we’re dating again. We just really love each other more than ever.”

I was not at all surprised, because God is good and everything He says in His word is calculated to our present and eternal flourishing.

Edited October 17, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Gail]

Well done! I just finished reading this, too

[Gail]

A person's picture of God really does shape his life, doesn't it?

[debbym]

there is all kinds of obedience, but one obedience of faith.  all obedience in ones own strength to whatever it is, is not the obedience of faith.

[Gail]

Unless the faith is surrender...

[pnattmbtc]

Ty is great.  

I find the Gospel is often misunderstood because of misunderstanding what the problem is, exactly along the same line as what Ty is talking about in regards to legalism.  That is, if we view God in a certain way, then we will view that He requires certain things because of His being that way (such as a payment for sin, in order that He can forgive us).  However, if we view God as He has revealed Himself to be in and through Christ, then rather than viewing things as requirements that God needs (either to forgive us, or for us to make Him happy, or such) we can see that the problem lies with us, and we simply need to view things as they are (by which I mean primarily God, and ourselves too).

As the OP poster has put it, "God is better than we think, and we are worse" (something like that)

[teresaq]

A text I've seen but has recently impressed itself on my mind has to do with obeying the gospel. Not the law. The gospel.

• 2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
• 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I think it would be nice to prayerfully study this. 

By that I don't mean that automatic response I see so often. You know, hear, respond, without engaging mind or in prayer.  I don't know how many times that can seem so right but if I see others contradicting basic SDA and/or bible beliefs when doing that more than likely so am I. Plus the only gain seems to be that of thinking so highly of myself as in, look how smart I am! When in reality I'm just talking myself into a certain entity's territory of which I may never wish to escape. 

I think I know what it means to obey the gospel, but I like to take it slow and prayerfully first....and would like to hear others' impressions.

[Gail]

Like, love is the highest of God's laws?

[teresaq]

Not to be a wet blanket, but after studying Jones, Wagonner and EGW on RbF I think Ty is still obeying in his own strength, but for the "right reasons". 

As all the twists on the same theme have never worked for me for whatever reasons I have been so relieved to have discovered what I believe is their intent as well as the first 3 steps of the 12 step. "I can't, God can, I think I'll let Him." "God does for us what we can't do for ourselves".

Without me ye can do nothing.

All we can do is give our will to God and He will work in us both to will, and to do, of His good pleasure.

Nothing else has worked for me but relying on God's promises.

[LifeHiscost]

Not to be a wet blanket, but after studying Jones, Wagonner and EGW on RbF I think Ty is still obeying in his own strength, but for the "right reasons". 

As all the twists on the same theme have never worked for me for whatever reasons I have been so relieved to have discovered what I believe is their intent as well as the first 3 steps of the 12 step. "I can't, God can, I think I'll let Him." "God does for us what we can't do for ourselves".

Without me ye can do nothing.

All we can do is give our will to God and He will work in us both to will, and to do, of His good pleasure.

Nothing else has worked for me but relying on God's promises.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?....John 14

7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5

15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.....John 13

God is Love!  Jesus saves!   

[teresaq]

More texts and quotes for consideration  (don't misunderstand my intent. I so appreciate the COG people who have helped me immensely. But, more and more I am realizing that knowing about God isn't enough. It's a start, but it isn't enough. Now I need to prove Him and I can only do that by standing on His promises, which He does fulfill in me.)

• 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, ...and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

... Cain in his offering did not acknowledge his dependence upon Christ. ... The idea of keeping that sin ever before the mind, and offering the blood of the slain lamb as a confession of entire dependence upon a power outside of himself, was torture to the high spirit of Cain. ....  {TM 77.1}   So similar to the 12 step principles.

     Your part is to put your will on the side of Christ. When you yield your will to his, he immediately takes possession of you, and works in you to will and to do of his good pleasure. Your nature is brought under the control of his Spirit. Even your thoughts are subject to him. If you cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire, you can control the will, and thus an entire change will be wrought in your life. When you yield up your will to Christ, your life is hid with Christ in God. It is allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. You have a strength from God that holds you fast to his strength; and a new life, even the life of faith, is possible to you.  {CTBH 148.2}

"It is not you who are to do that, which he [the Lord] pleases; but, 'it shall accomplish that which I please.' You are not to read or hear the word of God and say, I must do that, I will do that. You are to open the heart to that word, that it may accomplish the will of God in you. . . . The word of God itself is to do it, and you are to let it. 'Let the word of Christ dwell in you'" (A.T.Jones Review and Herald, October 20, 1896)

 

The time of trouble, trouble such as was not since there was a nation, is right upon us, and we are like the sleeping virgins. We are to awake and ask the Lord Jesus to place underneath us His everlasting arms, and carry us through the time of trial before us. {3MR 305.2}

 

The word of God being living and full of power, when it is allowed to work in the life, there will be powerful work wrought in that individual. As this word is the word of God, the power, of which it is full, is only the power of God; and when that word is allowed to work in the life, there will be the work of God manifested in the life—it is his power working mightily. And thus it is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "It shall accomplish that which I please." Let it. {October 20, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 669.5}

The mere reading of the Word will not accomplish the result designed of Heaven; it must be studied, and cherished in the heart. The knowledge of God is not gained without mental effort. We should diligently study the Bible, asking God for the aid of the Holy Spirit, that we may understand His Word. We should take one verse, and concentrate the mind on the task of ascertaining the thought which God has put in that verse for us. We should dwell on the thought till it becomes our own, and we know "what saith the Lord."  {ST, June 25, 1902 par. 14} 

 

This is to be believed and depended upon by every one who professes the name of Christ. You and I can no more hold ourselves up and in the right way than can the sun or the earth. And as certainly as the worlds are dependent upon his word, so certainly is the Christian to depend upon his word. And when this is so, the Christian is kept in the way of the Lord as certainly and as easily as is any planet in the universe. It is written that he "is able to keep you from falling." And he says, "I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness." "Yea, he shall be holden up; for God is able to make him stand." {October 13, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 654.5} Isa 41:10  Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

O struggling, failing Christian, is not that word which holds up great worlds able also to hold up you? Trust that word. Depend implicitly upon it. Rest wholly upon it: and then you will find rest in it. Trust the Lord to hold you up, just as you trust him to hold up the sun. His word holds up the sun, and his word is over and over to you, "Fear thou not; for I am with thee." "I will uphold thee." I will keep thee, thou art mine. "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." I will never leave thee till I have done that thing which I have spoken to thee of. {October 13, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 654.6} Gen 28:15  And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, … for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

"The word of God is quick ["living," R.V.] and powerful." "Powerful" means "full of power." (tq note: Strong’s,   (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.)The word of God is living and full of power, to do for you, with you, and in you, all that  word says. Believe that word, trust it: for it is the word of the living God. It is the word of the pitying Saviour. "Receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." "I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up." You "are kept by the power of God through faith." The power of God is manifested through his word, and therefore it is his powerful word. Faith comes by hearing the word of God; therefore it is the faithful word, the word full of faith. Therefore when he says, you "are kept by the power of God through faith," it is only saying in another way, You are kept by the word of God, "unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Believe that word, trust it, and find its keeping power. A. T. J. {October 13, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 654.7}

Read again the words of the apostle Paul:— {1890 EJW, LBFCG 7.2}

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20. {1890 EJW, LBFCG 7.3}

Here is the secret of strength. It is Christ, the Son of God, the one to whom all power in Heaven and earth is given, who does the work. If he lives in the heart to do the work, is it boasting to say that continual victories may be gained? Yes it is boasting; but it is boasting in the Lord, and that is allowable. Says the psalmist, "My soul shall make her boast in the Lord;" and Paul says: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal. 6:14. {1890 EJW, LBFCG 7.4}

John says that he that is born of God overcomes the world, through faith. Faith lays hold of the arm of God, and his mighty power does the work. How the power of God can work in a man, accomplishing that which he could not possibly do for himself, no one can tell. It would be as easy to tell how God can give life to the dead.  Says Jesus: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. How the Spirit works in a man to subdue his passions, and to make him victorious over pride, envy, and selfishness, is known only to the Spirit; it is sufficient for us to know that it is done, and will be done in everyone who wants that work wrought in him, above all things else, and who trusts God for the performance of it. {1890 EJW, LBFCG 8.2}

Pure bible, pure 12 step.

[pnattmbtc]

Not to be a wet blanket, but after studying Jones, Wagonner and EGW on RbF I think Ty is still obeying in his own strength, but for the "right reasons". 

I'm not following this.  I know Ty somewhat, and how he thinks (again somewhat, I think well enough to comment).  What did you have in mind?  From my reading they (i.e. Jones, Waggoner, Gibson) are saying very much the same thing, but with different language. 

[LoneRanger]

A person's picture of God really does shape his life, doesn't it?

Or perhaps a person's life shapes their picture of God...

[GayatfootofCross]

Lotta good stuff here to comment on.

I put this thread up cause two things Rang my heart and Life in the walk with JESUS.

1: ... is that I have been under conviction for a long time to bring heaven and God's love to my my most personal intimate relationship. Namely my Buddy. Its been a long long 26 years of give and take  and highs and lows. He is the more easy going of us two and i bring the loud and dramatic. And also more biblical knowledge and study which i useD to shut him down. In the beginning of our relationship i drove him into Church and drove him right on out . I had to grow up or I would have been out.  The principles that TY spells out in relationships has worked for me. Its been long going and very very imperfect of execution but there had been great strides made. Then I find this article! Amazing! (BTW.. he has his faults too..but it's about me bringing Heaven/Jesus to him)

2: ..it is a powerful thing to the human sin stained heart to realize God is exactly like JESUS! And to truly obey HIM cause you know deep inside of your gut.. His rules,laws.declarations is to protect you and others! To know that God is your Servant and doesn't Lord over you. He wins your affections and your heart cannot do anything but Praise Him and see the Most Lovely Entity in all the Universe! ... Our hearts align to His Character.  Spelled out in the LAWS,DECLARATIONS, and RULES.

God help us all!

 

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!   

 

 

 

there is all kinds of obedience, but one obedience of faith.  all obedience in ones own strength to whatever it is, is not the obedience of faith.

  On 10/18/2015, 10:17:25, pnattmbtc said:

Ty is great.  

I find the Gospel is often misunderstood because of misunderstanding what the problem is, exactly along the same line as what Ty is talking about in regards to legalism.  That is, if we view God in a certain way, then we will view that He requires certain things because of His being that way (such as a payment for sin, in order that He can forgive us).  However, if we view God as He has revealed Himself to be in and through Christ, then rather than viewing things as requirements that God needs (either to forgive us, or for us to make Him happy, or such) we can see that the problem lies with us, and we simply need to view things as they are (by which I mean primarily God, and ourselves too).

As the OP poster has put it, "God is better than we think, and we are worse" (something like that)

 

 

 

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Edited October 19, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[GayatfootofCross]

Edited October 19, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[pnattmbtc]

It is a powerful thing to the human sin stained heart to realize God is exactly like JESUS! 

Amen!!! 

[pnattmbtc]

A person's picture of God really does shape his life, doesn't it?

LoneRanger: Or perhaps a person's life shapes their picture of God...

Both are true, of course.  People with bad experiences with the fathers, for example, can have difficulty with the concept of God as our Heavenly Father.  Sin, in particular, causes us to think things about God which aren't true. 

[teresaq]

 

I'm not following this.  I know Ty somewhat, and how he thinks (again somewhat, I think well enough to comment).  What did you have in mind?  From my reading they (i.e. Jones, Waggoner, Gibson) are saying very much the same thing, but with different language. 

The COG ministry, not just Ty, is probably my favorite ministry but I read/listen to very little of them as I don't wish to be imprinted, a clone of them, as I have seen can happen. We are all to study and think for ourselves also as you already know and do. The times I have read any of them I have been so blessed, and at times not quite agreed. Perhaps I missed where any have made similar statements to these by EGW and Jones. Maybe, if handy, you could point out those similar comments.

 

"It is not you who are to do that, which he [the Lord] pleases; but, 'it shall accomplish that which I please.' You are not to read or hear the word of God and say, I must do that, I will do that. You are to open the heart to that word, that it may accomplish the will of God in you. . . . The word of God itself is to do it, and you are to let it. 'Let the word of Christ dwell in you'" (A.T.Jones Review and Herald, October 20, 1896)

 

 

Your part is to put your will on the side of Christ. When you yield your will to his, he immediately takes possession of you, and works in you to will and to do of his good pleasure. Your nature is brought under the control of his Spirit. Even your thoughts are subject to him. If you cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire, you can control the will, and thus an entire change will be wrought in your life. When you yield up your will to Christ, your life is hid with Christ in God. It is allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. You have a strength from God that holds you fast to his strength; and a new life, even the life of faith, is possible to you.  {CTBH 148.2}

 

 

Edited October 19, 2015 by teresaq

[pnattmbtc]

Similar thoughts that come to mind involve the theory of atonement.  The common idea at the time of Waggoner (and still today) was the penal substitution theory, but I can't think of any statements by Waggoner (or Jones, but I'm thinking more of Waggoner because we have written commentaries from him of Romans and Galatians).

I think there is 0% chance of your becoming a clone, so I wouldn't worry about that (not just them; I don't think you're becoming a clone of anyone's thinking is in your nature).

[teresaq]

What are the similar thoughts, or should we move this to another thread so as not to hijack GatftC' post?

[pnattmbtc]

What are the similar thoughts, or should we move this to another thread so as not to hijack GatftC' post?

I think I'll mention some things, as there might be some interest.  The one who *really* has similar thoughts is George Fifield, who was a contemporary of Jones and Waggoner, but not well known.  He did some sermons at the 1897 General Conference session, which is how I found about about him.  His first sermon, called appropriate "Sermon #1", on Isaiah 53 might be the best sermon I've ever read.  I really love it, and you find it online.  He also wrote a book "God is Love", which has nice thoughts.  

Regarding Waggoner, there is the commonality in the idea that it is many who needs to be fixed (Jones also emphasizes this point). and not God, meaning that the sacrifice is for our benefit, and not to propitiate God (Fifield also emphasized this).

[pnattmbtc]

To get back on the thread, on the Obedience vs. Legalism, I think where Ty is right on point (at least, this is how I'm reading him) is that if we have the view of God that God is like Jesus (gracious, compassionate, forgiveness personified, etc.) then the idea that we need to do something to win God's favor is a non-started, and legalism doesn't even enter into the picture, because there's no thought whatsoever of trying to gain God's favor by something we do, because it's totally unnecessary.

[teresaq]

Yes I've read Fifield since you introduced me to him back when. It is great and I reread it on occasion.

I agree our view of God has to be changed to the right one. Thinking God is more of the same of hate and vengeance as we see it here can't help but affect our belief and trust in Him.

But there is so much more after we find out how God is really like, in my experience anyway.   And I wouldn't trade that for nothing. Watching God work in my mind and empowering, giving me the ability, is just so awesome!  Not that I am nearly as consistent as I would like.

As I said, maybe I've just missed them talking about that.