Does our Church need Gimmicks?

[Gus Foster]

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Gus, what do you deduce from Scripture to constitute God's desire in how He is approached and worshipped today? Obviously Israel had very elaborate ceremonies prescribed in the Old Testament, but what about for Christians? I see general guidelines in there -- "let everything be done decently and in order" for example -- but I haven't seen anything that stands out as specific instruction on how to organize our worship experience explicitly. Have you seen anything specific? If so, could you please share the verses from scripture? Thanks.

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In this thread and in some others the question has been posed, do we have

Scripture that explicitly applies to a certain practice or conduct. I have

replied that I believe the Bible offers principals that can and should be

applied to every situation, and certainly, Adventists also the myriads of

writings of Ellen White to enhance our understanding.

I would like to borrow from Leslie Hardinge's, "The Lamb, God's Greatest

Gift". I am referring 'loosely' to pages 199-202.

The quoted text is from Rev 11:1; (with a measuring rod) "Go and measure the

temple of God and the altar, and count the worshippers there". We have some

important points in this text: go; measure; temple; altar; worshippers; and

with a rod. Quite a bit of concordance work here, since we know that all of

Revelation can best be explained through Moses and the Prophets.

In a brief summation, no one entered the Temple area empty handed; all

brought a gift, and a repentant soul. All sought forgiveness and cleansing.

You can say that it was in response to a God that provided everything;

manna, water, health and, clearness of mind, hope in the heart, and

thousands of gifts every day. All offerings were burned up. We could pull a

Judas and exclaim, 'what a waste'. All those beautiful animals burned up.

Nothing left. Oh, but they represented so much more--everything in Christ

Jesus, their Messiah. None dared prescribe how their gifts and offerings

were to be used; they were described by the Offeree. They not only allowed

His offering to cover their sins, but accepted His covering for their lives.

Shoes did not wear out. This was His imputed and imparted righteousness; His

offering for justification and sanctification, none of which was any part

from the offerer.

Just as in yesteryear, we can do nothing about the sins we have committed

today, the indulgences, the untruths, the covetous moments, the unguarded

word, the impure thoughts, the cherished thoughts, the hostility; they are

gone, they are past. What we can do; "Nothing in my hand I bring, only to

Your cross I cling". Only the offering of the Lamb, His blood, can cleanse;

and keep from living in that nightmare of self.

Please realize, that I have given this material a short summation; it is

much more detailed. The next time we give an offering it would be well for

us to be conscious about what we are really doing. This is why I keep going

back to Titus 2 & 3; the cleansing (washing) and regeneration; 2:14; 'Jesus

Christ', "who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to

purify for Himself a people who are His very own, eager to do what is good".

This does not say that I shouldn't drink coffee, or live on Pepsi, nor dance

in a clown custom on the podium at church during worship service; but I do

feel there is solid principal here for my conduct, and even my thinking.

Hardinge goes as far as to say that since 1844 God's people are living

during the 'day of atonement' and that we should conduct our whole lifestyle

with that traditional setting in mind. Many I know either forget or

disagree, but for any that concurr, it certainly limits worldly activity,

not just in a worship setting, but in everyday life.

[lazarus]

Isn't the problem here that the Bible is not detailed in terms of its prescriptions for worship. God, in His wisdom, knows that our worship has a high cultural component.

Here are just some of the things that we do...

Sabbath school 9:30 am

Hymn sandwich order of service

WEDNESDAY prayer meeting

ties, suits, hats etc

These are all cultural. They are useful in that they provice some structure and uniformity to what we do. The problem comes when we see these traditions/cultural norms as the express will of God as to how we should worship and do church.

There are problems with some of the new ideas/trends. There are problems with the traditional approach. Many of our churches are dying and simply thinking that more of the same will do it is shortsightedness.

Give me the texts that speak against drama, contemporary music, pupets, radically different worship formats, cafe's etc and i'll sit up and listen. Otherwise i'll try to be as creative as possible to reach the lost...because he's been so creative in reaching me. Thats how God does things.

Time and time again Jesus broke the traditions of the Pharasees and scribes in order to reach the lost people of Israel.

healing in the temple

not washing hands

allowing his disciples to pick corn

talking to samaritans

including women

including children

[Gus Foster]

One other point, there are several recent publications, commentaries on the book of Revelation, which describe Revelation as a book of describing worship, and its practices. The claim is that the book not only perscribes the correct posture, but shows the incorrect, which is worshipping with the beast, the image and the false prophet. Jon Paulien has one, as do others.

[lazarus]

Gus,

I'd be interested in seeing that material if it gets into specifics...I'm always open.

[Gus Foster]

I am studying Leslie Hardinge's, 'The Lamb, God's Greatest Gift'.

Jon Paulien's, 'The Deep Things of God'.

I love Ranko Stefanovic's 'Revelation of Jesus Christ'.

Hans LaRondelle's, End Time Prophecies of the

Bible'.

Samuel Bacchiocchi's 'The Mark and Number of the Beast', DVD.

Get them at ABCs or American Cassette Mininistries or Hope Intrnational, and other Adventist publishing houses. Or at

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/

[lazarus]

thanks,

I've read Pauline's book and sections of Ranko's and I'll try and check out the rest. From my intial impressions of the two i've had a look at, and folks tell me that ranko was Pauline student anyway, that there is an outline of general principles rather then specifics in terms of musical styles and modes of worship. I guess Bacchiochi would be more specific because he has pretty definite opinions.

[Nicodema]

I'm a big fan of Jon Paulien's work. I have the LaRondelle book you mentioned, Gus, but haven't really gotten in deep with it yet, just near the end of chapter 1.

Is that Stefanovic book the big thick one on Revelation? I think I have that one too somewhere. We used it in a Revelation study class so I've read parts of it but not the whole.

[there buster]

Just adding on.

It's been a little while since I read "The Deep Things of God," but I'm pretty sure Paulien would be surprised that someone thought his book claims that Revelation "perscribes the correct posture" for worship.

And yes, Ranko Stefanovic was Paulien's student.