"Quran" Thoughts or Critique of this book review????

[FallingRock44]

Quran in English: Modern English Translation. Clear and Easy to Understand.
By: Talal Ltqani

A book of hate and violence
ByTruth Revolton December 1, 2014
Format: Kindle Edition
By all means, read the Koran. I encourage you to. It is the only way you will learn the truth about the Muslim holy book and the oppressive ideology within it. I read the Koran and it woke me up to the true message of hate, violence, death, and oppression that is the central theme of the text.

Over 100 passages alone promote Jihad. The Qur’an endorses violence against non-believers. The Koran endorses slavery. The Quran treats women as property. The Koran endorses death (apostasy) for any Muslim who leaves the faith.

Unbelievers can be beheaded: “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly” (Qur’ran 47:4)

War on unbelievers is OK: “O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who grid you about and let them find firmness in you, and know that Allah is with those who fear Him” (Qur’ran 9:123)

Those who aren’t Muslims must be killed: “Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” (Quran 9:5)

Jews and Christians are the enemy: “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors of each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them.” (Qua’ran 5:51)

Women are inferior to men: “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other.” (Qua’ran 4:34)

Women must cover themselves “Lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except the their husband and their father (Quran 24:31)

Women can be beaten by their husbands: “Good women are obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.” (Qua’ran 4:34)

Since Mohammed married a 6 year old, pedophilia is approved of in Islamic societies and child marriage occurs regularly. The Islamic Hadiths (Additional Holy books discussing Mohammed’s life and words) are just as bad if not worse than the Koran. Female genital mutilation, the subjugation of women and children, oppressive Sharia Law, and many more horrors are endorsed in Hadiths and other sacred Muslim texts.

These things cannot be changed because Muslims believe Mohammed was the prophet of God. As the prophet, he was perfect, and the Koran is perfect, and to follow the Quran is a duty of every Muslim. Luckily, many Muslims are ignorant of what the Koran says. They are tolerant not because they are Muslims, but because they do not follow Islam as the ‘prophet’ demands. They are tolerant in spite of Islamic law and teachings, not because of them.

All relatively tolerant passages have been canceled out by the Muslim doctrine of abrogation. Abrogation was written down by Muhammed in the Koran to assist Muslims when two verses contradict each other. Abrogation requires one to disregard earlier versus (the tolerant ones) in favor of the later versus (violent and hateful). Thus, theologically, all violent and hateful Muslims are correct. They are following the Koran and ‘word of God’ according to Mohammed’s

I truly feel sorry for human beings who were raised with this religion and ‘holy book.’ They had no choice but to be born and raised into the culture. I hope they can look beyond the ‘holy’ label of this book and see it for what it really is: the narcissist hate-filled ramblings of a very delusional man who thinks he talks to God.

The truth is, many people ARE afraid to speak out against Islamic teachings because the radical Muslims do intimidate them. The other half is ignorant of the Islamic faith because they assume the Koran teaches love and peace and thou shalt not kill as other faiths do, while in reality, it teaches the complete opposite. If you’re one of these ignorant naïve folks, please please read the Koran and see for yourself. If you’re one of those living in fear of speaking out against deadly Islamic teachings, know that you’re not alone. Join groups like ACT For America where like minded people work together to educate the world about the dangers of Islam.

Before it became politically incorrect to criticize Islam, some very famous and respected men of history understood its dangers.

Alexis de Tocqueville on the Quran: “I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.”

Winston Churchill: “The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property-either as a child, a wife, or a concubine-must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influences of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism (Islam) is a militant and proselytizing faith.”

Voltaire: “But that a camel-merchant [Muhammad] should stir up insurrection in his village; that in league with some miserable followers he persuades them that he talks with the angel Gabriel; that he boasts of having been carried to heaven, where he received in part this unintelligible book, each page of which makes common sense shudder; that, to pay homage to this book, he delivers his country to iron and flame; that he cuts the throats of fathers and kidnaps daughters; that he gives to the defeated the choice of his religion or death: this is assuredly nothing any man can excuse, at least if he was not born a Turk, or if superstition has not extinguished all natural light in him.”

Mark Twain “That is a simple rule, and easy to remember. When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters.”

President John Quincy Adams: “In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE [Adam's capital letters]….Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.”

George Bernard Shaw “Islam is very different, being ferociously intolerant…You accepted Allah or you had your throat cut by someone who did accept him, and who went to Paradise for having sent you to Hell”

Carl Jung “We do not know whether Hitler is going to found a new Islam. He is already on the way; he is like Muhammad. The emotion in Germany is Islamic; warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god.”

Antony Flew “I would never regard Islam with anything but horror and fear because it is fundamentally committed to conquering the world for Islam... it is, I think, best described in a Marxian way as the uniting and justifying ideology of Arab imperialism. Between the New Testament and the Qur'an there is (as it is customary to say when making such comparisons) no comparison.

Islam is more than a religion; it is a political organization that takes over every country it can, by stealth or by force. Thus far 57 countries in the world are under Islamic rule and they have some of the worst human rights and women’s rights records in the history of mankind. I love Muslims and wish them well, but the ideas propagated by their faith are abominable and deserve every peace loving, human rights loving, freedom loving person’s contempt.
9 comments

         Well that about says it all for me.  Have any of you looked in to Islamic Eschatology thought????

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

1)  The above translation is not accepted as a valid translation by any large Islamic group.  Therefore, it should be used with caution.  To really understand the Quran, one should begin by reading a translation that is accepted by a large Islamic group, such as the Saudi government.

2)  In addition, the above citations are generally taken out of context and so are made to say that which they do not say.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

It is in the statement below that the  translation listed above is problematic.

1)  It has not explanations.  Islamic scholars generally believe that the Quran needs explanations in order to be understood.  To understand the Quran you should read a version that has explanatory notes along with the English text.  And those notes from an accepted Islamic source.

2) Translations made by one person, rather than a committee are generally of lessor value and validity than are translations made by a group of people.

3)  It also should be noted that while  I have not cited the source, the listed translator states that he began his study of the Quran from the standpoint of attempting to discredit it.  He cannot be said to be a life-long committed Muslim. 

 

This Quran translation has no interpretations, no footnotes, and no explanations. It is a pure translation of the Quran, from Arabic to English, and it does not try to emphasize any school of thought. The text purely and accurately translates the Holy Quran, from Arabic, into contemporary English. It was translated by a Muslim, who saw firsthand the miracles inside the Quran. His native language is Arabic; his everyday language is American English. For 15 years, he studied the Quran. For many years, he translated speech between his mother and his wife. For a living, he develops quality software.

[JoeMo]

Falling Rock,

Thank you for your enlightening post.  I agree with most of what you say, although I hesitate to place this judgement on all Muslims.  Many of them (as individuals) are peace-loving integral parts of American culture.  However, if only 10% are radicalized, it presents a huge problem.

You mention the doctrine of abrogation.  You say that the earlier doctrines of peace and toleration are abrogated by later statements about jihad and warfare.  My research shows that the Quran is not written chronologically; so it is difficult if not impossible to say which doctrine abrogates the other.  Based on the Mohammed's  life, it is probable that the violence doctrine abrogates the peace doctrine.  Recent events in Paris and Syria seem to support that proposition.

Much of Western Christianity and almost all of the secular West are totally unaware of the threat of Islamic Jihad (both radical and "civilizational").  It is time to open our eyes to the real end-time beast and his False Prophet, the Islamic Isa.

[LifeHiscost]

Another view.

Be sure and listen to the second three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5Nu6EabQD8

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

 

 

[FallingRock44]

On 11/21/2015, 7:28:44, Gregory Matthews said:

1)  The above translation is not accepted as a valid translation by any large Islamic group.  Therefore, it should be used with caution.  To really understand the Quran, one should begin by reading a translation that is accepted by a large Islamic group, such as the Saudi government.

There are a few problems with acceptance of the Saudi promoted translations of the Quran. 

I would draw your attention to:

http://www.meforum.org/717/assessing-english-translations-of-the-quran

Saudi-endorsed Translations

"Some are simply poor translations. Others adopt sectarian biases, and those that are funded by Saudi Arabia often insert political annotation."

"The Noble Qur'an in the English Language. By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan. "this Saudi-financed venture tries to impose the commentaries of Tabari (d. 923 C.E.), Qurtubi (d. 1273 C.E.), and Ibn Kathir (d. 1372 C.E.), medievalists who knew nothing of modern concepts of pluralism. The numerous interpolations make this translation particularly problematic, especially for American Muslims who, in the aftermath of 9-11, are struggling to show that Islam is a religion of tolerance." and "Whereas the Qur'an reports Moses's address to the Israelites as "O my people! Enter the Holy Land that God has assigned unto you,"[45] this Saudi version twists the verse with modern politics, writing, "O my people! Enter the holy land (Palestine)."

Bucking the Saudi Orthodoxy

"The Message of the Qur'an. By Muhammad Asad." "Not every translation preaches the Saudi line. Muhammad Asad," and "and Indicative of the desire and drive of Saudi Arabia to impose a Salafi[51] interpretation upon the Muslim world, the kingdom has banned Muhammad's work over some creedal issues. Because the Saudi government subsidizes the publication and distribution of so many translations, the ban has in effect made Asad's translation both expensive and difficult to obtain. Nevertheless, it remains one of the best translations available, both in terms of its comprehensible English and generally knowledgeable annotations.

 

 

 

 

[FallingRock44]

WHILE I am on the subject of the House of bin Saud

FROM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

"

Wahhabism is named after an eighteenth-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703–1792).^[16] He started a revivalist movement in the remote, sparsely populated region of Najd,^[17] advocating a purging of practices such as the popular "cult of saints", and shrine and tomb visitation, widespread among Muslims, but which he considered idolatry (Shirk), impurities and innovations in Islam (Bid'ah).^[5][18] Eventually he formed a pact with a local leader Muhammad bin Saud offering political obedience and promising that protection and propagation of the Wahhabi movement would mean "power and glory" and rule of "lands and men."^[19] The movement is centered on the principle of Tawhid,^[20] or the "uniqueness" and "unity" of God.^[18] The movement also draws from the teachings of medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyyah and early jurist Ahmad ibn Hanbal.^[21]

The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proved to be a rather durable alliance. The house of bin Saud continued to maintain its politico-religious alliance with the Wahhabi sect through the waxing and waning of its own political fortunes over the next 150 years, through to its eventual proclamation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, and then afterwards, on into modern times. Today Mohammed bin Abd Al-Wahhab's teachings are state-sponsored and are the official form of Sunni Islam^[3][22] in 21st century Saudi Arabia.^[23]

Estimates of the number of adherents to Wahhabism vary, with one source (Michael Izady) giving a figure of fewer than 5 million Wahhabis in the Persian Gulf region (compared to 28.5 million Sunnis and 89 million Shia).^[23][24]

With the help of funding from petroleum exports^[25] (and other factors^[26]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.^[3]

Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",^[27][28] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),^[29] and for causing disunity in Muslim communities by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates^[30] (takfir), thus paving the way for their execution for apostasy.^[31][32][33] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic mazaars, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.^[34][35][36] The "boundaries" of what make up Wahhabism have been called "difficult to pinpoint",^[37] but in contemporary usage, the terms Wahhabi and Salafi are often used interchangeably, and considered to be movements with different roots that have merged since the 1960s.^[38][39][40] But Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",^[41] or an ultra-conservative, Saudi brand of Salafism.^[42][43]"

 

[Aliensanctuary]

The teachings of Christ are capable of creating a far better world than the toxic ramblings of Mohammed.

[Tom Wetmore]

Spend time reading the Old Testament prophets that we have as part of our Scripture.  Even some of the Psalms.  Similar disturbing ideas could be just as easily gotten from our own Scriptures.  Let's start with the disturbing Psalm that includes the idea of bashing our enemies babies on the rocks.  

[Gregory Matthews]

1) A translation made by a group, such as the Saudi translation is likely to be a better translation than one made by one person.

2)  All translations have a bias.  I prefer a bias toward making a faithful translation to a bias that began with an attempt to disprove the work.

3)  A major value of the Saudi work is that it is printed in three parts.   The first part is the Arabic.  So one can check our the original language.  The second part is the English translation of the Arabic.  The 3rd  part is the commentary.  This explains the meaning attached to the work by Islamic scholars today.  Yes, it can be said that this reflects a bias.  Of course it does.  But, the commentary  is separate from the translation.  One can check it with the original in both Arabic and in English.

4) In the translation you cited, the bias is inserted directly into the English and one cannot check it with the Arabic.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

The following is applicable to the battlefield.  It is not a general prescription as to how people should be treated outside of the battlefield.  It should be noted that in the context of  the battle mentioned here, the opposing force were all "unblievers" or not Islamics.

 

Unbelievers can be beheaded: “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly” (Qur’ran 47:4)

[Gregory Matthews]

You cite sura 9:5 and tell us that it tells us that everyone who is not a Muslim must be killed.  That is simply false.

In context  that passage is talking about idolaters.  It is not talking about Christians and Jews.  The Quran makes a difference between polytheistic idolaters and the  "People of the Book" who are Christians and Jews.

I note that while you referenced Sura 9:5, I find it interesting that you did not reference Sura 9:6 & 7.   I have quoted them below.  Those verses present a different view.

A question comes to my mind:  Have you ever actually read the Quran?  Or, are you only basing your comments on people whom you have read?

NOTE:  If you were to ask me, I have read the Quran from beginning to end.

9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.

9:7 God and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters, save those with whom you have made treaties at the Sacred Mosque. So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. God loves the righteous.

 

 

[FallingRock44]

2 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Spend time reading the Old Testament prophets that we have as part of our Scripture.  Even some of the Psalms.  Similar disturbing ideas could be just as easily gotten from our own Scriptures.  Let's start with the disturbing Psalm that includes the idea of bashing our enemies babies on the rocks.

I do not believe that the Palms mentioned has anything to do with us as Christians "bashing our enemies babies on the rocks."

e-Sword

Psa 137:8  O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9  Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Dr. John Gill (1690-1771)

"Psalms 137:8
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed,.... By the determinate counsel and decree of God, and according to divine predictions; see Jer_50:1; so mystical Babylon, antichrist, and the man of sin, who therefore is called the son of perdition, 2Th_2:3; because appointed to destruction, and shall certainly go into it, Rev_17:8; or "O thou destroyer", as the Targum, which paraphrases it thus,

"Gabriel, the prince of Zion, said to the Babylonish nation that spoileth or destroyeth;''

which is true of literal Babylon, called the destroying mountain, Jer_51:25; and of mystical Babylon, the destroyer both of the bodies and souls of men, Rev_11:18;

happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us; meaning Darius the Mede, as Kimchi; or rather, or however who must be added, Cyrus the Persian, as R. Obadiah; who were ordered by the Lord to retaliate her, and do as she had done to others, Jer_50:15; and in so doing pronounced happy, being the Lord's shepherd, raised up in righteousness to perform his pleasure, Isa_44:28; and here wished success by the godly Jews. In like manner the Christian princes will reward mystical Babylon, and be the happy instruments of her ruin, Rev_18:6."

 

"Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. That takes the infants from their mothers' breasts, or out of their arms, and dashes out their brains against a "rock", as the word (k) signifies; which, though it may seem a piece of cruelty, was but a just retaliation; the Babylonians having done the same to the Jewish children, and is foretold elsewhere should be done to theirs, Isa_13:16. Nor is this desired from a spirit of revenge, but for the glory of divine justice, and that such a generation of cruel creatures might be rooted out of the earth; see Rev_2:2. Some allegorically understand this of crushing and mortifying the first motions of sin in the heart; but such a sense seems to have no place here.

(k) אל סלע "ad petram", V. L. Pagninus, Montanus, &c. "ad repem", Cocceius."

 

Notes on
Psalms
2013 Edition
Dr. Thomas L. Constable

137:8-9    He also prayed that the Babylonians would experience destruction similar to the one they had inflicted on the Israelites (cf. Isa. 13:16). Evidently during the destruction of Jerusalem, the Babylonian soldiers mercilessly killed young Jewish children. Verse 8a should read, "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction" (NIV). God had promised to curse those who cursed Abraham's descendants (Gen. 12:3). From the viewpoint of the victors over Babylon, the Persians, the fall of Babylon would be a blessing.

"It is an act of profound faith to entrust one's most precious hatreds to God, knowing they will be taken seriously."550

Believers who experience God's discipline for their sins may feel great sorrow. Sometimes discipline cuts us off from the blessings of corporate worship and the joy it brings. It is always appropriate to ask God to remain faithful to His promises.

 550 Brueggemann, p. 77.

Per Dr. Constable "He" is the Psalmist.

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

"Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. That takes the infants from their mothers' breasts, or out of their arms, and dashes out their brains against a "rock", as the word (k) signifies; which, though it may seem a piece of cruelty, was but a just retaliation;

This is OK? (I mean, OK, as in the religion of Jesus Christ).

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This is OK? (I mean, OK, as in the religion of Jesus Christ).

7O Lord, remember what the Edomites did

on the day the armies of Babylon captured Jerusalem.

“Destroy it!” they yelled.

“Level it to the ground!”

8O Babylon, you will be destroyed.

Happy is the one who pays you back

for what you have done to us.

9Happy is the one who takes your babies

and smashes them against the rocks!...Psalms 139

This appears to be a sense of payback for what Babylon, the avowed enemy of God and His children, had done to Israel. The whole old testament is a story of the conflicts of God's children, Israel, and the devils followers. When Jesus came to sacrifice Himself for the sinful (all of mankind), He gave instructions for solving the problems occurring as a result of man trying to "fix' things under their own knowledge and strength.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.….Matthew 5

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[FallingRock44]

On 11/24/2015, 8:19:42, Gregory Matthews said:

You cite sura 9:5 and tell us that it tells us that everyone who is not a Muslim must be killed.  That is simply false.

In context  that passage is talking about idolaters.  It is not talking about Christians and Jews.  The Quran makes a difference between polytheistic idolaters and the  "People of the Book" who are Christians and Jews.

I note that while you referenced Sura 9:5, I find it interesting that you did not reference Sura 9:6 & 7.   I have quoted them below.  Those verses present a different view.

A question comes to my mind:  Have you ever actually read the Quran?  Or, are you only basing your comments on people whom you have read?

NOTE:  If you were to ask me, I have read the Quran from beginning to end.

I suppose I did not make absolutely clear that I did not write the Review of "Quran in English: Modern English Translation. Clear and Easy to Understand."  By: Talal Ltqani.  I used this particular Review because the author of the Review had the thoughts of prominent people on the Quran. Which I thought might be of interest to some.  YES I have read enough, a large portion, of the Quran and Commentaries on it to know that is not the path for me.  Nor for any Christian who believes in the divinity of CHRIST. 

I noticed you had nothing to say about my post " A few of My stumbling blocks with the Quran".  In which I cover a, albeit small, portion of the Quran dealing with JESUS.  In this post you can see that I use "Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an".  Which may not be a Translation you like but it does contain the Arabic the English and Commentary.

Here is a fuller quotation of the Quran 9 passage in question.  For context I will quote verses 1-16.    

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

---

9. Surah At Taubah (The Repentance)

"[1-2] This is a declaration¹ of immunity (from obligations) by Allah and His Messenger to those mushriks with whom you had made treaties:² "You are free to move about in the land for four months more:³ but you should know that you cannot frustrate the Will of Allah, and that Allah will degrade the rejecters of the Truth."

[3-4] This is a public proclamation from Allah and His Messenger for all the people on the Day of Great Haj:⁴ Allah is free from the treaty obligations made with the mushriks and so is His Messenger. If, therefore, you repent now, it is better for you but if you turn away, you should know it well that you cannot frustrate (the Will of) Allah. And, O Prophet, give the good news of a painful chastisement to the rejecters excepting those mushriks with whom you made treaties. and who afterwards did not violate these in the least nor did they give help to anyone against you; so you also should observe the treaties with such people in accordance with their terms, for Allah loves the pious people.⁵

[5-6] Then, when the months made unlawful⁶ for fighting expire, kill the mushriks wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way:⁷ for Allah is Forgiving and Compassionate. And if any of the mushriks requests you for protection so that he may come to you (to hear the Word of Allah), give him protection till he hears the Word of Allah; then convey him. to the place of his safety: this should be done because these people do not know the Truth.⁸

[7-8] How shall a treaty with these mushriks be regarded as abiding by Allah and His Messenger? -excepting those with whom you made a treaty at the Masjid-i-Haram:⁹ so long as they behave rightly with you, you also should behave rightly with them, for Allah loves the righteous people.-But how can a treaty be regarded as abiding with the other mushriks? Since if they get power over you, they will not respect ties of kindred with you nor honor any treaty obligations. They try to conciliate you with their tongues, while their hearts are averse to their tongues,¹⁰ for most of them are evil-doers.¹¹

[9-12] They bartered away Allah's revelations for paltry worldly gains¹² and then debarred others from His Way:¹³ indeed very evil were the deeds they did. They do not observe the ties of kindred in regard to the Believers nor observe the obligations of treaty, and it is they who have always been the transgressors: yet if they -repent even now, and establish Salat and pay Zakat dues, then they shall be your brethren in faith. Thus We make plain Our Messages to those who try to understand.¹⁴ But if they break their oaths after making compacts and revile your Faith you should fight with these ringleaders of disbelief because their oaths are not trustworthy: it may be that sword alone will restrain^14a them.¹⁵

[13-16] Will you not fight¹⁶ such people who have been breaking their solemn pledges, who conspired to banish the Messenger and were the first to transgress against you? Are you afraid of them? If you are true Believers, surely Allah has a greater right that you should fear Him. Fight them. Allah will chastise them by your hands and will bring disgrace and degradation upon them and succor you against them and soothe the hearts of many believers. And He may remove the wrath of their hearts; and may also show guidance towards repentance¹⁷ to whomsoever He wills; Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Do you think that you will be left (without a trial)? Note it well that Allah has not as yet seen which of you exerted your utmost in His (Allah his way) and did not take as intimate friends any other than Allah, His Messenger and the Believers¹⁸ Allah has full knowledge of what you do. "

 

In reading any posts on this forum that refer to the Islamic faith.  I come away with the feeling/ thought that you seem to be an apologetic of Islam.  In the sense of a defense and an explanation of Islam.  

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

 

LifeHiscost:When Jesus came to sacrifice Himself for the sinful (all of mankind), He gave instructions for solving the problems occurring as a result of man trying to "fix' things under their own knowledge and strength.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.….Matthew 5

 

This is what I was getting at.  The clearest picture comes from Jesus Christ as to what God's character and intentions are.

[Gregory Matthews]

Islam is NOT a Christian religion.  I am both a Christian and a Seventh-day Adventist.

I have taken issue on this forum when I have felt that people were inappropriate in comments that they had made about both Islam and The Catholic religion.  Granted, I have  probably had more to say about Islam than the Catholic faith.

I am most vocal when I suspect  that people who are commenting rely on 2nd-hand sources and have not done the proper research.  This is exactly what I would expect from college students if I were teaching college students.  In this type of a situation, I would expect that someone who cited the Quran would use a translation that was accepted by a major Islamic group.  I would expect that student to  quote in  context and to comment on an overall view of the Quran on that subject rather than simply citing a verse or two.  I would expect that person to know and understand how Islamic scholars understood the verse in the Quran that was cited.

I do not in any way consider myself to  be an expert on the Islam.  I do consider myself to be informed, but not an expert.

By the way I have taught World Religions.  My largest class consisted of 155 students,  All of whom were either working on a graduate degree or already had been granted a graduate degree.  But, again, as I have said, that does not make me an expert.  People who know more than I can find me to be in error.  When they do so, I welcome their correction.  World Religions is not my major field.

 

In reading any posts on this forum that refer to the Islamic faith.  I come away with the feeling/ thought that you seem to be an apologetic of Islam.  In the sense of a defense and an explanation of Islam.

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

The issue being addressed here happens frequently, and to posters as well.  That is, one will see that a poster hasn't made the effort to understand what the person he is responding to actually said or believes.  If we are going to disagree with someone, we should be able to represent their position well enough to where they would say, "Yes, that's what I believe".

 

[Gerr]

I have read parts of the Quran.  It is dry and hard reading.

[LifeHiscost]

http://tinyurl.com/pdb276p

Not that this will help but add fuel to the fire, however some will see the logic.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry:  Exactly.  That is why one may need help in understanding it.

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gerry:  Exactly.  That is why one may need help in understanding it.

I've read parts of the Q'ran; and I don't get it, either - probably because of my westernized Christian POV.  That being said, I've read the Bible through a few times; and some parts many, many times; and there are a lot of things I still don't understand.  I need help understanding some vital points of scripture.  This forum is a great place to propose or advance new ideas.  People here will definitely provide feedback!