How we got December 25 as Christmas

[Gregory Matthews]

On one level sin is an abstract reality.

On a personal level, sin may be what we are charged with.  The Bible makes plain that there are limits to what we, in God's eyes are charged with.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has to do with inheritance.  The Scripture gives inheritance much more importance than modern Christians tend to be comfortable with.  Since our forefathers threw off our feudal overlords, we like to think that we can stand on our own, without any hereditary titles or honors, and that a person should not be affected by their genealogy.  Not so in the Bible.

The "sin" of childbirth may have something to do with what God told Eve in Genesis 3:16 --
         To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children.

Since women still inherit from Eve the consequence of Eve's first sin (the pain of childbearing), the "sin" offering after giving birth may also be related to the "curse" of that first sin.

I suspect somebody is going to bring up a verse like Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek ... in Christ Jesus" to try to show that inheritance no longer plays a part for believers.  What Paul was teaching in that verse works because of inheritance, not in spite of inheritance.  Because of God's covenant with Abraham, which Jesus inherited as a true descendant of Abraham, the slaves/servants that Jesus purchased (as our Lord) become part of the household of Abraham (and Jesus) and receive that inheritance instead of the natural one they were born with.  When we are "in Christ" we inherit all of the blessings, promises, and consequences that would be inherited by someone adopted into a family physically descended from the heirs of Abraham, as Jesus was.  It's ironic that most Christians are not much interested in the things they inherit from Abraham and his true descendants (the land, the sign of the covenant, the Torah, etc).  They apparently prefer to see themselves as "genealogy-free" rather than valuing the heritage that Jesus provided.

Do you have any understanding of how women who lived at a greater distance from the Temple, dealt with the necessary purification sacrifices?  Seems like a LOT of traveling for new mothers and their very young infants. 

[Ron Amnsn]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Do you have any understanding of how women who lived at a greater distance from the Temple, dealt with the necessary purification sacrifices?  Seems like a LOT of traveling for new mothers and their very young infants. 

Let me share my ignorance --

I don't think the women were required to set off for Jerusalem the day after her time of purification was over.  She likely waited to travel to Jerusalem with her husband when he headed off to the next feast.

Perhaps they didn't view babies and traveling with babies as a problem.  In some mid-east cultures the women pack the babies around much of the day even while at home. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Let me share my ignorance --

I don't think the women were required to set off for Jerusalem the day after her time of purification was over.  She likely waited to travel to Jerusalem with her husband when he headed off to the next feast.

Perhaps they didn't view babies and traveling with babies as a problem.  In some mid-east cultures the women pack the babies around much of the day even while at home. 

Yes.  Mary and Joseph traveled to Egypt with their newborn.  That was quite a journey. 

OK - but weren't other people supposed to AVOID a person who was "unclean"?  Wouldn't the baby be considered "unclean" too?  How could the woman function - within her family - until she got "clean" again?  She wouldn't even be able to hug her other children.   Maybe the "uncleanness" associated with childbirth was not regarded in the same way as other types of "uncleanness". 

[Gail]

I would love to do a study on just what uncleanness entailed.

[Kevin H]

I don't know of all the details. Maybe a study would be how it was in Leviticus (which describes for Judah where they lived closer to the sanctuary) and Deuteronomy which was for those farther away and became the major book for the North. As well as learning about the later role of the Synagogue.

One theme we find in the Bible is how people tend to turn God's blessings into curses, but how God can turn his curses into blessings. Most, if not all, the curses in the books from Joshua through 2 Kings ended up being concentrated on one person, the Prophet Jeremiah.  For example the curse on the house of Eli that there would not be an old man in that house. That family had a larger proportion of their decedents get called to be prophets, and prophets tend not to live a long life. (and yes Jeremiah was from this family. Had not Hezekiah destroyed  the high places a century before he would have been the high priest of them and the high priest of the cursed northern kingdom).

But even beyond them. God wanted the Remnant to stay in the land, but they forced Jeremiah to come with them to Egypt where some Jewish communities were formed. And at the end of the exile others remained in Babylon. Among those left in Babylon a number of them became magi. The magi that came to Jesus may have been Jewish magi from Babylon. (we cannot be certain but there is a good chance that they might have been.) And one of the Jewish communities of Egypt saved the exact date of the decree and restore Jerusalem from which we know the start of the 70 years and 2300 evenings-mornings. And which provided refuge for the baby Jesus.

Anyway for another direction in this discussion. we know that Jesus cleaned the temple at least once and most likely twice. But did you know that there was a third and final cleaning of the temple which is related to the question about uncleanness from birth?

So that there were no images in the temple people had to change their money with the Emperor's likeness or other images, they had temple money with geographic designs and plants. People had to change their regular money into temple money with a poor exchange rate, and then pay for the expensive animals to sacrifice. This was run by the Sadducees and it was their bribe to the Roman Governor (In Jesus' case Pilate).  Soon after Jesus cleaned the temple the corrupt practices began again. But then a Rabbi told people to not make the sacrifice for every child that they had but to just make one sacrifice when entering menopause that would cover all the children. The profit of the money changers and sacrificial animal sellers plummeted to an equal exchange rate and the animals to the same price as buying them elsewhere so that the practice finally came to an end. I'd like to think that Jesus' cleanings of the temple gave the courage to this Rabbi to also cleanse the temple.

[Gail]

Cool!