Compared to other denominations, SDA know their Bible

[Robert]

How do I know?  Lately I've been on non-SDA sites; they are not open to anything except their own preconceived views. It's very sad!

[JoeMo]

Even on this site there are those who don't want to discuss things that are too far "out of the box".

[Gail]

True enough, fascinating as the Bible really is.

[Robert]

The non-Adventists on another Christian forum fought me in 3 areas:

1] The gospel, where I believe Christ as God assumed our fallen life indwelt with our bent-to-sin in order to legally redeem the human race.

2] The state of the dead

3] The Sabbath.

Which one do you think they opposed the most?  And when I say opposed I mean they were calling me a devil.

BTW, I presented the Sabbath not from the law, but as linked with the gospel (see Heb chapter 4)

 

[Robert]

They primarily opposed me on the Sabbath.  They got very rude, and sad to say (you guys know me), I counter punched...but they still wouldn't listen.  Amazing!

Again, I didn't link the Sabbath to the law because if you do that they will call you legalistic.  So I very methodically  connected "His rest" (the gospel/see Heb chapter 4) to the 7th-day Sabbath.  

What did these non-SDA do?  They still called me a legalist.  I couldn't believe what I was reading.  I said wait, I rest the 7th-day because God the Father rested the Sabbath from His finished work of redemption "in Christ" and you are calling me a legalist?  I said, My Sabbath rest points to the fact that I can add nothing to what God accomplished "in Christ" a little over 2000 years ago.  I can't add works...I can't add anything to God's rest because "in Christ" I am complete, and yet that was legalistic to these guys.  

They will agree you shouldn't kill, steal, commit adultery, worship other gods, etc.  That's not legalism, but resting the Sabbath to them equals legalism. It really blows my mind!

Oh, on the state of the dead they couldn't refute me....I basically asked them what component of their humanity was naturally holy that it was untouched by the fall of mankind and could, on its own steam (i.e, independent of the resurrection),  go directly to heaven?  I said whatever that component is apparently doesn't need the righteousness of Christ.  They had no answer for that one...So I then accused them of being self-righteous and legalistic. I said this doctrine attacks the sinners need of Christ (i.e., the gospel).

[phkrause]

Robert, you can also link the Sabbath to Creation! That's where it originates from!!

[Wingnut]

Not long ago there was a thread titled "Ellen White & the Trinity" during which Rachel gave her argument for the Holy Spirit not being a person.

Irrespective of the rightness or wrongness of her argument, I ask you Robert and all, how open would you be to a change in doctrine?

It is very easy to think "I am right on all doctrines, I cannot understand why everyone else is so thick".

I too am on a religious forum with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics etc. and I have not found them to be closed minded.

They do fight a little more robustly there, whereas here, everyone is super-nice, knowing that when all is said and done, they will go straight back to believing whatever SDA HQ dictates.  

Therefore this forum, and SDA churches in general, see no need to get hot and bothered over doctrine, or to be nasty.

[Tom Wetmore]

Sometimes winning the argument does more harm than good.  Since first impressions are often lasting impressions, what sort of impression off Adventists does this leave them with?  How long and how much effort will it take for them to have a favorable impression of us?

 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

Robert, you can also link the Sabbath to Creation! That's where it originates from!!

I did....They still insisted it was the Jewish Sabbath.  Some folks aren't open for truth.  They are stiff-necked. 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

It is very easy to think "I am right on all doctrines, I cannot understand why everyone else is so thick".

It's not that I am right, rather show me from the Bible and in context where I err.

 I've changed my position on many things over the years. But when Christians blatantly lift things out of their context I have no use them.

[Tom Wetmore]

But do you honestly think they were seeing the Bible as what (who) they were arguing against?  How about trying a  different way to win? Try a more winsome way to win some for Christ.  Try winning souls to the kingdom instead of winning arguments about the kingdom?

[Wingnut]

10 minutes ago, Robert said:

It's not that I am right, rather show me from the Bible and in context where I err.

 I've changed my position on many things over the years. But when Christians blatantly lift things out of their context I have no use them.

BTW I am not saying that you did err at all.  It was just the general principle that everyone thinks they are right.

But how much time have you got  

[Robert]

I personally think that there's a lot of trolls on these Christian chat sites...

 

Troll: In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Tom Wetmore said:

But do you honestly think they were seeing the Bible as what (who) they were arguing against?  How about trying a  different way to win? Try a more winsome way to win some for Christ.  Try winning souls to the kingdom instead of winning arguments about the kingdom?

You have some merit there, but I'm sure that you are acquainted with some of Paul's words in dealing with the Judaizers?  And of course Christ's commentary in dealing with the Pharisees?

[Tom Wetmore]

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

I personally think that there's a lot of trolls on these Christian chat sites...

 

Troll: In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

I strongly suspect you were viewed as the troll by some when you visited their online community...  

Just saying...

[Wingnut]

15 minutes ago, Robert said:

I personally think that there's a lot of trolls on these Christian chat sites...

 

Troll: In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

My experience again is very different.  I cannot say I have met more than one or two trolls among the thousands of interactions on my particular religious forum.  The evolutionists mock creationism, but in turn one tells them what we think of evolution.

I have no memory of folks being disrespectful of the Sabbath either.  My approach on all forums is not to expect anyone to change their mind, and if they do, they will not say it online and publicly.  All you can do is plant seeds.  

My personal reason for being on forums is that it forces me to read the Bible.  Otherwise I can go months without any personal study.  And one is forced to research topics like evolution, which again I might have no interest in otherwise.  So convincing others is probably lowest on my list.  Maybe one in a few hundred posts one might get a hint that someone might change because of something you have said.  One has to have a clear idea of why one is doing this at all.  

And some forums are just vicious like the SDA forum on Topix.  I lasted there about 1 week because it was all trolls.

[8thdaypriest]

56 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

All you can do is plant seeds. 

Yes. 

Originally, I came to Club Adventist to TEST my doctrinal positions.  It's a very good place to do that.  Folks challenge the positions of other posters.  I think it strengthens my positions, or it makes me go back to look at them seriously, and maybe adjust them.  The good answers I "found" for the challenges of others, ended up in studies published on my website.  So thanks to all those who have challenged me. 

Then I made a couple of friends.  I'm glad for them. 

Concerning Mrs White:  I had to get away from reading her, some years actually, before I could read Scripture without always remembering her interpretations- before I could study Scripture for itself.  I used to really know those "red books".   I'm not against EGW.  I just don't believe she should be read as the infallible interpreter of Scripture.  I think she was WRONG about some things.  I have found that Adventists read Scripture with little EGW glasses.  After years and years of the Sabbath School Quarterly - facing pages, one with EGW, the other with Scripture, it's hard NOT to think of her interpretation, whenever you read Scripture. 

The Hebrew Roots people, and the Church of God 7th Day people, also "know their Bible" more than average "church people".   

I have found that most folks who are part of a congregation, (especially those with kids or family in the same church, and ESPECIALLY those with responsible "positions" in those churches), are VERY resistant to anything "new" that might compromise their social support group - their "church family".  They sense immediately what teaching is accepted, and what will be DANGEROUS.  As one who was removed from teaching Sabbath School, and shunned out of the church for questioning the Trinity doctrine, I speak from experience. 

This is true of folks from every church - not just SDAs.   And in a small town, where folks know everyone - new doctrines are especially dangerous.  This is NOT about a "closed mind".  This is about real FEAR of loosing ones social support group, and ones standing in the community.  Every once in a while, I meet someone who has a REAL relationship with the LORD.  These are the people who are most open to learning something new.  Their hunger to know the LORD, outweighs their fear. 

[Wingnut]

38 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes. 

Originally, I came to Club Adventist to TEST my doctrinal positions.  It's a very good place to do that.  Folks challenge the positions of other posters.  I think it strengthens my positions, or it makes me go back to look at them seriously, and maybe adjust them.  The good answers I "found" for the challenges of others, ended up in studies published on my website.  So thanks to all those who have challenged me. 

Then I made a couple of friends.  I'm glad for them. 

Concerning Mrs White:  I had to get away from reading her, some years actually, before I could read Scripture without always remembering her interpretations- before I could study Scripture for itself.  I used to really know those "red books".   I'm not against EGW.  I just don't believe she should be read as the infallible interpreter of Scripture.  I think she was WRONG about some things.  I have found that Adventists read Scripture with little EGW glasses.  After years and years of the Sabbath School Quarterly - facing pages, one with EGW, the other with Scripture, it's hard NOT to think of her interpretation, whenever you read Scripture. 

The Hebrew Roots people, and the Church of God 7th Day people, also "know their Bible" more than average "church people".   

I have found that most folks who are part of a congregation, (especially those with kids or family in the same church, and ESPECIALLY those with responsible "positions" in those churches), are VERY resistant to anything "new" that might compromise their social support group - their "church family".  They sense immediately what teaching is accepted, and what will be DANGEROUS.  As one who was removed from teaching Sabbath School, and shunned out of the church for questioning the Trinity doctrine, I speak from experience. 

This is true of folks from every church - not just SDAs.   And in a small town, where folks know everyone - new doctrines are especially dangerous.  This is NOT about a "closed mind".  This is about real FEAR of loosing ones social support group, and ones standing in the community.  Every once in a while, I meet someone who has a REAL relationship with the LORD.  These are the people who are most open to learning something new.  Their hunger to know the LORD, outweighs their fear. 

I really like everything you say here Rachel.

On my other forum, at this present moment I am having a frank and friendly exchange of ideas with a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Jew and an atheist within the last 15 minutes.  And nobody feels threatened because I am pointing out how much we have in common.

 

I know you are strong in your faith and could likewise converse with all of the above and not be moved in the least away from Christ or your beliefs since you have made a deep and personal study of the Bible to get where you are today.  I know you can explain your beliefs at the drop of a hat -  you don't have to look up what the handbook says.  

 

And a forum like this is the best place to get material for your web-page.

And I like having my beliefs tested since, if they are wrong, they have to go  

[JoeMo]

I have had good experiences on non-denominational websites an well as with a non-denominational Bible Study I hold at work during the lunch hour.  In both places (as well as CA), I have found that people care more about what I think as I show more care for them.  Relationship opens people's minds.  Everyone knows I am a Sabbath-keeper and why I am.  They respect that.  Why? Because I don't condemn them for being Sunday keepers.  My strategy is to plant a seed.  When someone asks me why I worship on Saturday, I tell them "because I really like it!  The people at church are awesome, the lessons are always biblical and educational; and Saturday worship appears to be what God originally had in mind when He gave us the Law."  But I never say "I'm right and you're wrong".  The harshest thing I say is "That's an interesting viewpoint"; or "I don't believe that way".  As soon as a discussion becomes heated or the exchange becomes one of personal insults, I walk away.  I'd rather win the war than win the battle.  One "victory" was bringing a former JW to belief in Jesus and His grace.

[JoeMo]

BTW - the "victory" is God's not mine.  I am both humbled an honored that He would use a wretch like me to spread His word.

[Robert]

When I said, "Compared to other denominations, SDA know their Bible" doesn't imply I agree with everything.  Generally speaking, I agree with SDA on

1] The state of the dead

2] The Sabbath 

3] The law as a standard of Christian living

4] Health message 

5] The Papacy 

Where I disagree:

A] Too much emphasis on EGW instead of the Bible

B] Too much emphasis on Christian living instead of understanding our position "in Christ" (the gospel)

Both A & B has a tendency to produce insecure, legalistic SDA.  Been there, done that....

 

 

 

[Robert]

My disagreement with non-SDA Protestants are:

1] Their doctrine on Sunday as the Sabbath

2] Their doctrine on immortality of the soul

3] Their view of the gospel

4] Their view that the law was nailed to the cross

5] Their view that all meat is clean (i.e., there's no unclean meats)

Where I agree:

A]  Because they place more emphasis on justification by faith then Christian living they tend to have the assurance of salvation more than SDA.  

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

My disagreement with non-SDA Protestants are:

1] Their doctrine on Sunday as the Sabbath

2] Their doctrine on immortality of the soul

3] Their view of the gospel

4] Their view that the law was nailed to the cross

5] Their view that all meat is clean (i.e., there's no unclean meats)

Where I agree:

A]  Because they place more emphasis on justification by faith then Christian living they tend to have the assurance of salvation more than SDA.  

Only if they are "once saved - always saved" Baptists. 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Only if they are "once saved - always saved" Baptists. 

Well, as I say, you are once saved always saved as long as your faith remains in Christ. 

Besides, there are way too many statements in the book of Hebrews that make our ultimate salvation conditional upon an enduring faith.

[Robert]

Two of the best arguments against once saved always saved are found in Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:5-10,26-31