Are you a sophisticated thinker?

[joeb]

I've been thinking about this lately.  What kind of thinkers do we see in the world today?  I like simple, straight-forward, thinking and speaking.  To me that is just the best way to go about it. 

[joeb]

Oh, brother.  I inadvertently hit the wrong choice.  I am not a sophisiticated thinker, and I  would never want to be one.

[Gail]

I hit #1 but I can swing both ways.

[CoAspen]

Ah, Gail.....maybe you want to rephrase...

[Geoarrge]

Depends on what you mean by sophisticated.  Thinking that might seem straightforward to some people could appear to others as alien or insane, if it depends on attaining a level of situational awareness that their amygdalae have not developed to handle. 

[Bravus]

Einstein said "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler".

Simple is good, simplistic is bad.

Sophisticated is good, pretentious is bad.

Simple and sophisticated is best.

[Outta Here]

Yes.

[joeb]

The root word of sophisticated is sophist.  The definition for sophist is:

Quote

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Sophist Soph"ist, n. [F. sophiste, L. sophistes, fr. Gr. ?.
   See Sophism.]
   1. One of a class of men who taught eloquence, philosophy,
      and politics in ancient Greece; especially, one of those
      who, by their fallacious but plausible reasoning, puzzled
      inquirers after truth, weakened the faith of the people,
      and drew upon themselves general hatred and contempt.
      [1913 Webster]

            Many of the Sophists doubdtless card not for truth
            or morality, and merely professed to teach how to
            make the worse appear the better reason; but there
            scems no reason to hold that they were a special
            class, teaching special opinions; even Socrates and
            Plato were sometimes styled Sophists. --Liddell &
                                                  Scott.
      [1913 Webster]

   2. Hence, an impostor in argument; a captious or fallacious
      reasoner.
      [1913 Webster]

If you study the words of Jesus you will see simple, straightforward thinking.  You will never see sophistry, or in otherwords, sophisticated thinking. 

Quote

WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
sophistry
    n 1: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in
         reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone [syn: sophism,
         sophistry, sophistication]

 

In my book, no one who takes Christ as their master ought ever take pride in claiming to be sophisticated for to claim such is to brag about being on the devil's team and to adopt his tactics and principles.

[joeb]

Quote

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Sophisticate So*phis"ti*cate, v. t. [imp. & p. p.
   Sophisticated; p. pr. & vb. n. Sophisticating.] [LL.
   sophisticatus, p. p. of sophisticare to sophisticate.]
   To render worthless by admixture; to adulterate; to damage;
   to pervert; as, to sophisticate wine. --Howell.
   [1913 Webster]

         To sophisticate the understanding.       --Southey.
   [1913 Webster]

         Yet Butler professes to stick to plain facts, not to
         sophisticate, not to refine.             --M. Arnold.
   [1913 Webster]

         They purchase but sophisticated ware.    --Dryden.
   [1913 Webster]

   Syn: To adulterate; debase; corrupt; vitiate.
        [1913 Webster] Sophisticate

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Sophisticate So*phis"ti*cate, Sophisticated
So*phis"ti*ca`ted, a.
   Adulterated; not pure; not genuine.
   [1913 Webster]

         So truth, while only one supplied the state,
         Grew scare and dear, and yet sophisticate. --Dryden.
   [1913 Webster]

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

"sophistry" is not the same as today's meaning of "sophisticated".... words change throughout time.  If they didn't, we'd still be speaking in Old English from the Anglo-Saxons, or Old Norse from the Vikings.

Prithee, fere, tis nay a matt'r for uhtceare...

 

[Bravus]

Of course, 'sophos' actually means 'wisdom'. The fact that the Sophists debased that doesn't change it.

I hope that my thinking is wise - at least as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

Thinking wisely does not preclude thinking simply: indeed, it is most often wise to think simply. But wisdom may protect us from thinking simplistically.

[joeb]

On 1/20/2016 at 6:45 PM, David 'Bravus' Geelan said:

Of course, 'sophos' actually means 'wisdom'. The fact that the Sophists debased that doesn't change it.

I hope that my thinking is wise - at least as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

Thinking wisely does not preclude thinking simply: indeed, it is most often wise to think simply. But wisdom may protect us from thinking simplistically.

Here is more sophistry, for the root of sophisticated is NOT sophos.  This is nothing more than an attempt to obfuscate.

 

[joeb]

On 1/20/2016 at 4:15 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

"sophistry" is not the same as today's meaning of "sophisticated".... words change throughout time.  If they didn't, we'd still be speaking in Old English from the Anglo-Saxons, or Old Norse from the Vikings.

Prithee, fere, tis nay a matt'r for uhtceare...

 

Pam,

The more people claim to be sophisticated the less willing they are to accept plain and simple truths such as those found in the Bible.  Those who say homosexusality are wrong are said to be unsophisticated.  I wonder why?  Those who say speak truth only are derided as simplistic and unsophisticated.  I wonder why?  Sophisticated and worldly are also synonymous.  That's because the prince of this world was the original sophist, and this world sees his attributes as desireable.  Those who accept the word of God as true, including the creation account, the virgin birth of Christ, etc... are looked down upon as unsophisticated by this world.  I wonder why?  I can tell you why.  It's because they believe in simple, unadulterated truth.  Once again this comes back to the real meaning of sophisticated, sophist, and sophistry. 

Here is sophisticate as a verb from dictionary.com.  I use it as a rebuttal to your assertion for dictionary.com gives the modern meaning of the word.

Quote

verb (used with object), sophisticated, sophisticating.

3.

to make less natural, simple, or ingenuous; make worldly-wise.

4.

to alter; pervert:

to sophisticate a meaning beyond recognition.

verb (used without object), sophisticated, sophisticating.

5.

to use sophistry; quibble.

What I see here is quibbling with the real meaning of the word so as to try to obfuscate the meaning of the word.   That the world wants to do this is not surprising.   That Christians want to do the same is very troubling.

Here is the definition of sophisticate from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.

Quote

1

sophisticate

play

transitive verb so·phis·ti·cate \sə-ˈfis-tə-ˌkāt\

Definition of sophisticate

Popularity: Bottom 40% of words

so·phis·ti·cat·edso·phis·ti·cat·ing

1. 1 :  to alter deceptively; especially :  adulterate

2. 2 :  to deprive of genuineness, naturalness, or simplicity; especially :  to deprive of naïveté and make worldly-wise :  disillusion

3. 3 :  to make complicated or complex

As sophisticated is simple the past tense of sophisticate there is little doubt that the real meaning of sophisticated is the the same as sophisticate.  I find it interesting that you want to deny the dictionary definitions of the word when the root word and it's variations as nouns and verbs.

Here is Merriam-Webster's definition of sophistry.

Quote

sophistry

play

noun soph·ist·ry \ˈsä-fə-strē\

Simple Definition of sophistry

Popularity: Top 30% of words

• : the use of reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false

• : a reason or argument that sounds correct but is actually false

The overwhelming evidence of all the related words from all dictionaries points to a subtle perversion of truth, of an adulteration of truth, etc... as the real meaning of sophisticated.  You can claim whatever you want, but the evidence says differently.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

the OP used the word, "sophisticated"...  the very first definition on google is the following (and I completely agree with it).  There's nothing remotely indicative of evil or deception.  

I think I'd rather be sophisticated (enlightened, knowledgeable & cultured) than *unsophisticated* (naive, ignorant & crude).... but that's just me.  Others may prefer naiveté.

[fccool]

Sophistication can be a tool for a narcissist, but so can everything else.   I personally think that social shaming of ignorance can be a very good tool, if it awakens some societal need to gather some baseline level of sophistication to hold an intelligent discussion.  

 

[Bravus]

'aware of and able to interpret complex issues; subtle'

The originator of this thread is saying that this is a Bad Thing.

At least he is demonstrating his principles in his practices in the thread.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes.  My thoughts exactly.  A substantial amount of convoluted sophistry to reframe and redefine sophistication so as to eliminate and negate any positive and worthwhile meaning of the word and related and foundational concepts it represents.  In short - just more anti-intellectual nonsense intended to justify ignorance and undermine education and progress.  Or in a word - backward.  

[Tom Wetmore]

I just read through this whole thread in an effort to figure out where it went off the rails.  I have to conclude it really never was on track.  The question/OP at the begining really sets the stage with a false premise that limits the possible choices to yes or no regarding the type of thinker one might be and further limits the range of the discussion by an implausibly narrow defining adjective for "thinker".  But wait, that's not all!  The originator of the topic then falls deeper in the rabbit hole of logical fallacies by furthering the false premise by very selective focus on the least likely or helpful definitions of the word in question, and a word related in root only that is much nearer to the opposite of both of the key words of the OP question.

The primary word "thinker" has been quite lost lost in the sophistry of the whole premise of the hopelessly lost quest to illuminate it.  Quite simply, the effort is ultimately the very opposite of simple straightforward thinking.  And sophisticated thinking.

[joeb]

On 1/21/2016 at 1:30 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

the OP used the word, "sophisticated"...  the very first definition on google is the following (and I completely agree with it).  There's nothing remotely indicative of evil or deception.  

I think I'd rather be sophisticated (enlightened, knowledgeable & cultured) than *unsophisticated* (naive, ignorant & crude).... but that's just me.  Others may prefer naiveté.

rudywoofs,

Did you notice the very first, and thus the most common synonym, given in both of your examples?  Worldly for sophisticated and unworldly for unsophisticated.  What is it to be worldly but to accept the principles, values, thinking, etc... that this world accepts as valid.  Who sets those values?  Who is the originator of them?  One person: the devil.  He has been a liar and murderer from the very begininng.  He is the original sophist and he has infected this world with his attributes and his hatred of God through his sophistry.   

Doesn't the Bible tell us to be in this world, but not "of this world"?  To be "of this world" is to accept its values, ideas, and principles, which is to accept the attributes of the devil for he is the prince of this world.  Also notice the third meaning of unsophisticated: not artificial.  That by default means the meaning of sophisticated is artificial for unsophisticated is the opposite of sophisticated. 

I appreciate it when you make my arguments for me. 

Even in your rebuttals you confirm my position.  I know you can't see it, but you really confirm my thoughts and what I have posted here. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

terrible that Jesus, then, was "worldly".... He advocated "rendering to Caesar" according to the laws and principles of the land.

(by the way, joeb, you've been "off the map" for a few days.... was wondering where you were...  )

[CoAspen]

It's called 'pick and choose', when it come to meanings of words.....

Worldly

1.

of or relating to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life,etc.; earthly; mundane.

2.

experienced; knowing; sophisticated:

the benefits of his worldly wisdom.

3.

devoted to, directed toward, or connected with the affairs, interests, or pleasures of this world.

4.

of or relating to the people or laity; secular; neither ecclesiastical nor religious.

 

From my HS basic English class we learned that words can/do have different meanings, according the how they are used.

Ignorance can be chosen is one desires, but then one may have difficulty in conversing with those in live in this world.