8thdaypriest Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/8/2016 at 8:37 AM, Robert said: Let's back up to get the complete context: 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. There's an "if" in there - "Therefore if anyone is in Christ". Which means NOT EVERYONE is "in Christ" - only some people. Romans 16:7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (NKJ) If everyone was "in Christ" when He died, then Romans 16:7 doesn't make sense. Andronicus and Junia were "in Christ" BEFORE Paul was. This makes union with Christ something that HAPPENS at a point in the person's life - NOT something that happened once for all humanity, when Jesus died. Everyone is NOT "in Christ" from birth. So - how does one get there? The question then becomes: HOW does "anyone" arrive at the position of being "in Christ" (in union with Christ) ? Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (NKJ) Luke 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." (NKJ) John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:" (NKJ). Those who do NOT receive Him - those who do NOT believe, do NOT "become children of God". Which means we start out - not as "children of God" - but as children of Adam, condemned to death. phkrause 1 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 The person who believes, and is then filled with the Spirit of Christ - that person becomes "a new creation", newly created through the infilling of the Spirit of Christ. phkrause 1 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Wingnut said: I think Robert is saying we are "in Christ" 2000 years ago when He died on a cross. The humanity we all share with fallen Adam (i.e., our corporate humanity) was united to the Divinity of Christ a little over 2000 yrs ago. This didn't happen at the cross, but at the incarnation. Quote The common belief is that we are "in Christ" when we accept Him as Lord. Then that belief is in error and must be abandoned. Quote Appealing to grammar will not help because God calls the things which will be as if they are. Oh, I see, let's ignore the verb tenses and by all means let's ignore the immediate context. Quote Pnatt is completely right to point to verse 20 which tells us that we become "in Christ" when we accept Him and are reconciled to God. No, God didn't unite your corporate humanity to the Divinity of Christ when you believed. That idea is ludicrous. The Bible teaches that God's work "in Christ" is a finished work, so how could God add you to Christ now? What you are teaching is unbibical and legalistic. Again: Rom 5:10 "....when (denotes time) we were enemies we were (past tense) reconciled to God through the death of His Son" When did Christ as the Son of Man die? About 2000 years ago. Then that's when we were reconciled to God. Quote Case closed. Not at all...
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, Robert said: No, God didn't unite your corporate humanity to the Divinity of Christ when you believed. That idea is ludicrous. The Bible teaches that God's work "in Christ" is a finished work, so how could God add you to Christ now? What you are teaching is unbibical and legalistic. Again: Rom 5:10 "....when (denotes time) we were enemies we were (past tense) reconciled to God through the death of His Son" When did Christ as the Son of Man die? About 2000 years ago. Then that's when we were reconciled to God. Thanks for illustrating my point that God calls the things that will be, as if they are. Think for a moment how ridiculous your idea is that WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES WE WERE FRIENDS. What Rom 5:10 is saying is that while we were still enemies of God, God took the initiative in extending an offer of friendship. We have to accept that offer to become friends [reconciled]. I know this "idea is ludicrous" to you, that while someone is your enemy, he is not your friend.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said: The person who believes, and is then filled with the Spirit of Christ - that person becomes "a new creation", newly created through the infilling of the Spirit of Christ. What has the Holy Spirit created in our fallen humanity? Do we not still retain our human nature? Yes. So He didn't touch this. And are we still mortal? Yes. So He didn't touch this either. So according to your theology "all things" have not become new. The Holy Spirit resides in our spirit and from there, as we walk in the Spirit, He can defeat the desires of our nature. He brings our minds into harmony with God's agape love. So the only change the believer experiences is in his heart (mind). Therefore your answer cannot possibly be correct.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Wingnut said: What Rom 5:10 is saying is that while we were still enemies of God, God took the initiative in extending an offer of friendship. No sir...that's not true! You are making this up. The context doesn't even remotely state this. It states that when we hated God and enjoyed sin that we were reconciled to God through Christ's corporate death. Who are you kidding?
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, Wingnut said: We have to accept that offer to become friends [reconciled]. I know this "idea is ludicrous" to you, that while someone is your enemy, he is not your friend. Agape love its enemies...God is agape. God loved us when we hated Him and saved us in Christ.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 Just now, Robert said: Agape love its enemies...God is agape. God loved us when we hated Him and saved us in Christ. Read how agape operates: Luke 6:27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Agape loves the unlovable....Agape loves its enemies. There is no self in agape....It's unconditional love.
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 29 minutes ago, Robert said: No sir...that's not true! You are making this up. The context doesn't even remotely state this. It states that when we hated God and enjoyed sin that we were reconciled to God through Christ's corporate death. Who are you kidding? Let's use some common sense and not let the opium of religion smoke our brains. If McDonald and Campbell have forever been enemies and one day McDonald goes up to Campbell and extends his right hand, and Campbell slaps it away telling McDonald to go take a long leap off a short pier - my question to you is "Are they reconciled?" pnattmbtc 1
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 39 minutes ago, Robert said: Agape love its enemies...God is agape. God loved us when we hated Him and saved us in Christ. Oh how deluded you are. Are you telling me that God does not consider any humans to be His enemies? And while you are about it, please answer this. If we have two parties, and one party considers itself the enemy of the other party, are they reconciled? reconcile = ": to cause people or groups to become friendly again after an argument or disagreement"
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Let's use some common sense and not let the opium of religion smoke our brains. If McDonald and Campbell have forever been enemies and one day McDonald goes up to Campbell and extends his right hand, and Campbell slaps it away telling McDonald to go take a long leap off a short pier - my question to you is "Are they reconciled?" Use Biblical arguments if you would like a response from me....
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 14 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Oh how deluded you are. The Bible will decide that: Rom 5: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies,we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 Give me your definition of reconcile then. I take it to mean both parties become friends. If one party is an enemy to the other, they are not reconciled. Simple. Case closed.
Members phkrause Posted January 9, 2016 Members Posted January 9, 2016 You have to remember, Robert, that Paul is actually talking to believers! I understand what your saying up to a point, but I think the point being, he's talking to believers, not non-believers. Not that non-believers don't read the Bible now!! phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, phkrause said: You have to remember, Robert, that Paul is actually talking to believers! I understand what your saying up to a point, but I think the point being, he's talking to believers, not non-believers. Not that non-believers don't read the Bible now!! I agree with you again The scripture makes sense if it is speaking to believers who ARE NOW friends of God, and are now reconciled. Christ has enemies, So the God of agape can still have enemies with whom He is not reconciled. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, phkrause said: You have to remember, Robert, that Paul is actually talking to believers! I understand what your saying up to a point, but I think the point being, he's talking to believers, not non-believers. There's no doubt that Paul is writing to the believers in the church at Corinth, but that doesn't negate my position. The believer is a "new creation" in Christ alone. Only in Him have "all things been made new" because at the resurrection Christ's Deity (which never died) was united, not to our life from Adam for that remained in the grave, but to a glorified, sinless and holy humanity like Adam's life before the fall. In fact this glorified life is more like the angels than our humanity before the fall (see Mark 12:25). Here is Scripture on this point: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Are we in heaven? No, I'm typing on my laptop. So who is the "us" that has already been "transferred" to heaven?
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Wingnut said: Christ has enemies, So the God of agape can still have enemies with whom He is not reconciled. Yes, but both God and Christ love their enemies. That's central to the gospel message and He has reconcile "the world" (the human race) to Himself "in Christ Jesus"!
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Wingnut said: Give me your definition of reconcile then. I take it to mean both parties become friends. If one party is an enemy to the other, they are not reconciled. Simple. Case closed. Here's the Bible: "while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son"
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 Col 1:21 And although you (believers) were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He (Christ) has now (through the cross) reconciled you (where?) in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him (God & His law) holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23 if indeed you continue in the faith.... Now, are we holy and blameless "in Christ" our in our Christian walk? Please don't say believers are in themselves holy and blameless because that borders on blasphemy.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 30 minutes ago, Robert said: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Are we in heaven? No, I'm typing on my laptop. So who is the "us" that has already been "transferred" to heaven? Here's another Paul statement much like the one above, but even better: Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins (unbelievers and rebels), made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)... God saved us "in Christ" when we were spiritually dead; living for the flesh and hating God. Verse 6 and He (God) raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.... Again, who is the "us" that was raised up with Christ and taken to heaven?
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 15 minutes ago, Robert said: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Eph 2:6 "He (God) raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Again, who is the "us" that was raised up with Christ and taken to heaven? There's only one possible answer: Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus.... Why? Because that "new creation" is holy and blameless and we, sitting in front of our computer here on earth, aren't! We are righteous by faith alone in the doing & dying of Christ....That doesn't mean we are living for the flesh like we were before conversion.
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Robert said: Now, are we holy and blameless "in Christ" our (or) in our Christian walk? Correction....
pnattmbtc Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 There's been a lot of posts here, but as far as I can tell, the question I've been asking hasn't been addressed, which is, what about verse 20: Quote 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. Why would our message to unbelievers be "be reconciled to God" if unbelievers already were reconciled to God. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Posted January 10, 2016 11 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: There's been a lot of posts here, but as far as I can tell, the question I've been asking hasn't been addressed, which is, what about verse 20: Why would our message to unbelievers be "be reconciled to God" if unbelievers already were reconciled to God. There's no "if", unless you discount numerous Pauline statements such as Col 1:22 & Romans 5:8-10. God's work in Christ is a finished work. In fact that's why the NT believer should rest the Sabbath because the 7th-day points to a finished and perfect redemption accomplished "in Christ". Mankind has already been reconciled to God in Christ, but some will reject this truth. Those who reject the gospel and harden their hearts remain under law.
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Posted January 10, 2016 Let's return to this: 2 hours ago, Robert said: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Eph 2:6 "He (God) raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Again, who is the "us" that was raised up with Christ and taken to heaven? There's only one possible answer: Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus.... Rebuttal?
Recommended Posts