Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 22 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: What is it you are finding confusing? Jumping from the gospel, to justification by faith and then to sanctification. We need to stay just to the gospel on this thread or we will all get very confused. As I have stated a lot, the gospel has not one iota of any human contribution. The gospel is what Christ did, in our humanity, in His birth, life, death and resurrection.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 25 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Robert, from my perspective, what is important is The Great Controversy, which regards God's character, so this is what I talk about. Yes, that's good, but it isn't the gospel. Yes, the love or character of God is revealed in the gospel (see: http://www.jacksequeira.org/cross2.htm ), but it isn't the gospel. Quote When we see and believe the truth, we become followers of Jesus Christ. This is my understanding of what the gospel is No....that's not the gospel. That's accepting the gospel. Theologically this is called justification by faith. It's Christ's justification of humanity, received by faith. The question is what are receiving by faith? That's the gospel.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 34 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: What is it you are finding confusing? The gospel is not justification by faith.... The gospel is not our sanctification The gospel is what Christ did in His earthly birth, life, death and resurrection in our corporate humanity. How many times do I have repeat this??? If the gospel is something other than what I've stated, then there's human contribution.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 On 1/9/2016 at 3:07 PM, Robert said: There's no doubt that Paul is writing to the believers in the church at Corinth, but that doesn't negate my position. The believer is a "new creation" in Christ alone. Only in Him have "all things been made new" because at the resurrection Christ's Deity (which never died) was united, not to our life from Adam for that remained in the grave, but to a glorified, sinless and holy humanity like Adam's life before the fall. In fact this glorified life is more like the angels than our humanity before the fall (see Mark 12:25). Here is Scripture on this point: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Are we in heaven? No, I'm typing on my laptop. So who is the "us" that has already been "transferred" to heaven? Why do you think "the kingdom of His beloved Son" is heaven? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 What is the gospel? It is a righteousness planned by God. It is a righteousness prepared by God without any human contribution. It is a righteousness that is made available by God Himself. I want this to be clear. In the New Testament, we read that it is God Who takes the initiative for our salvation. The Gospel is not conditional Good News. God doesn’t say to the world, and to you and me, “You first have to be good,” or “First you must make yourself disposable to me, then I will save you.” When we come to (Romans) chapter 5, we will discover that, while we were helpless, incapable of saving ourselves, while we were ungodly, while we were enemies, and while we were sinners, God reconciled us to Himself by the death of His Son. God takes the initiative. Here in the western world, and in our church as a whole, we have twisted the thing around. We hold efforts and we tell people, “Come to our halls, and listen to the Gospel.” That’s not the New Testament. The New Testament, and the commission that Christ gave is: “Go into all the world” and do what? Just like God takes the initiative we must take the initiative, folks. The world is desperately waiting for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was planned by Him, it was prepared by Him in His Son Jesus Christ, and it was made available by Him. He takes the initiative, He gets all the credit and all the glory. This is the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, what Paul is trying to present in this book (Romans) is the unconditional good news of salvation, which He prepared for us in His Son Jesus Christ. J. Sequeira
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Why do you think "the kingdom of His beloved Son" is heaven? John 18:36 “My kingdom is not of this world." So where's His kingdom, on Mars? Anyway, Eph 2:5,6 states the same: "even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 43 minutes ago, Robert said: Yes, that's good, but it isn't the gospel. Yes, the love or character of God is revealed in the gospel (see: http://www.jacksequeira.org/cross2.htm ), but it isn't the gospel. No....that's not the gospel. That's accepting the gospel. Theologically this is called justification by faith. It's Christ's justification of humanity, received by faith. The question is what are receiving by faith? That's the gospel. The word "gospel" means "good news." What is the good news concerning? The good news concerns God. This is the theme of Scripture, and especially clear in John, and Paul says the same thing John does. In and through Jesus Christ the goodness of God revealed. Consider Paul's prayer here: Quote 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. From my perspective, this prayer makes perfect sense; this is exactly what I would expect Paul to prayer for, given Paul viewed the gospel as I do. But how does this make sense from your point of view? Why isn't Paul praying that they understand that God through Christ solved a legal problem? Why is he praying that they understand the agape of God? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: The word "gospel" means "good news." What is the good news concerning? The good news concerns God. The good news concerning sinners saved by God in Christ. Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He (God) promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, Now here's the gospel: 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead,
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Robert said: John 18:36 “My kingdom is not of this world." So where's His kingdom, on Mars? Anyway, Eph 2:5,6 states the same: "even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, This isn't the same thing. What I'm asking is why you think the kingdom of Christ is heaven? Yes, Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but that doesn't mean that it's in heaven, it means it is not worldly; that it's principles are not of this world. He's not making a statement of *where* His kingdom is, but what it's principles are. Regarding where, Jesus said the following: Quote Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21 The other text you cited doesn't say anything about the kingdom of Christ being heaven. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: From my perspective, this prayer makes perfect sense; this is exactly what I would expect Paul to prayer for, given Paul viewed the gospel as I do Quote 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; This is not the gospel. The Spirit in the inner man is our sanctification through the Spirit. This is the fruits of accepting the gospel. 2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. Growing in grace, by resting in Christ's finished work, is the fruit of receiving "the gospel". Self-righteousness is the fruit of receivng "another gospel".
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21 So, when Paul states, "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" he really meant "He... transferred us into ourselves?" Have you lost it?
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, Robert said: This is not the gospel. The Spirit in the inner man is our sanctification through the Spirit. This is the fruits of accepting the gospel. 2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. Growing in grace, by resting in Christ's finished work, is the fruit of receiving "the gospel". Self-righteousness is the fruit of receivng "another gospel". Your response has nothing to do with my question, which is a bit disappointing, because I was clear. Paul is praying that the might understand the height and depth and length and breadth of the agape of God. Why is this his prayer, rather than that understand that Christ solved a legal problem? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: So, when Paul states, "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" he really meant "He... transferred us to into ourselves?" Have you lost it? Is this a serious question? Hard to believe you don't really understand the point. Regardless, why do you think the kingdom of Christ is heaven? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: So, when Paul states, "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" he really meant "He... transferred us into ourselves?" Have you lost it? Pilate said to Him (Christ), “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you FROM ABOVE...
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Your response has nothing to do with my question, which is a bit disappointing, because I was clear. Paul is praying that the might understand the height and depth and length and breadth of the agape of God. Why is this his prayer, rather than that understand that Christ solved a legal problem? Without Christ solving our legal problem, agape wouldn't save you. Comprehend?
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Regardless, why do you think the kingdom of Christ is heaven? You have to be joking? I can't take you serious any longer. You're acting like a internet troll instead of someone who is genuinely interested in discussing the gospel.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Hard to believe you don't really understand the point. Your point is ludicrous. God didn't transfer "us" into ourselves. That's what you are trying to push....But I'd have to be crazy to buy into such nonsense.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Just now, Robert said: You have to be joking? I can't take you serious any longer. You're acting like a internet troll instead of someone who is genuinely interested in discussing the gospel. I've not heard the idea before that the kingdom of Christ is heaven. Is this original with yourself? Do you know anyone else who holds it? Why do you hold it? When Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world" what He meant is that He wasn't setting up a political kingdom, but a spiritual one; he was talking about the church. I think you can look at any commentary from any denomination, and you will see it says something like this. When Christ said, "Don't look here or there" but "the kingdom of God is within you", He could hardly have meant "The kingdom of God is heaven", could he? Yet this is what your are asserting. Actually Christ made dozens of statements about His kingdom, and in not one of them does He say it is in heaven. Always He is talking about a work, a spiritual work, He was presently doing. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: You have to be joking? I can't take you serious any longer. You're acting like a internet troll instead of someone who is genuinely interested in discussing the gospel. Instead of being derisive, why not present some evidence for your position? I've read quite a lot about Paul, and am certain he did not have the idea that the kingdom of Christ was heaven. I've never come across your idea. Why do you think Paul thought the kingdom of Christ was heaven? Have you ever studied anything about Paul and the time he lived? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Quote Me:Your response has nothing to do with my question, which is a bit disappointing, because I was clear. Robert: Paul is praying that the might understand the height and depth and length and breadth of the agape of God. Why is this his prayer, rather than that understand that Christ solved a legal problem? Without Christ solving our legal problem, agape wouldn't save you. Comprehend? Once again, your response is not addressing my question. My question is why is it Paul's prayer that we understand agape? Why isn't it his prayer that we understand corporate forensic justification? Paul says nothing about a legal matter in his prayer, but he does speak of agape, which is exactly what I would expect, given my perspective, but not at all what I would expect given yours. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: When Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world" what He meant is that He wasn't setting up a political kingdom, but a spiritual one; he was talking about the church So you read it as follows: 13 For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us [into the church of ] His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: My question is why is it Paul's prayer that we understand agape? Why isn't it his prayer that we understand corporate forensic justification? Because that's not the context....Silly question.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Just now, Robert said: So you read it as follows: 13 For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us [into the church of ] His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Christ's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, which stands as a counterpart to the world. This spiritual kingdom is no more a physical place than the world is a physical place, when this context is of spiritual matters (e.g. friendship with the world is enmity with God; this isn't speaking of a physical place, but of spiritual principles). When Christ said "the kingdom of God is within you," He was speaking of spiritual principles, the principles He was preaching about. Here's the NIV: Quote For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, This can hardly mean that Christ has brought us into heaven, if you mean heaven as a physical place. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Robert said: Because that's not the context....Silly question. The context of what? It's not a silly question. Paul is taking pains to point out that he prays a certain prayer. Why is he doing this? Why this prayer? Once again, Paul's prayer makes perfect sense given my perspective, but it doesn't make sense given yours. Why would he make this prayer? Is this your prayer? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: The context of what? Paul isn't discussing our "corporate forensic justification" in what you quoted. It's a straw man.
Recommended Posts