pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Because they reject God's finished work. To reject Christ is to remain under law and condemnation. It's called free-will. It took a while to get here, but I'm glad we did. So you are saying that free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one goes to heaven. We're on the same page here. Now where does the free will come into place? Is it not by way of resisting the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin? If one refuses to repent, one will be lost. But if one responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, then one will be saved. Do you agree with this? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Then what, dear man, was taken to heaven? I mean you have all the answers....You tell me. Christ. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: It took a while to get here, but I'm glad we did. So you are saying that free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one goes to heaven. We're on the same page here. Now where does the free will come into place? Is it not by way of resisting the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin? If one refuses to repent, one will be lost. But if one responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, then one will be saved. Do you agree with this? It seems the ONLY thing a person can DO, (according to Robert) which would result in LOSS of salvation, is to "deny the finished work of Christ" in heart or in word. But that is an ACTION, chosen through "free will". Robert doesn't call it a "sin", but what would you call it, except the "unforgivable sin"? 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 If people have resisted the evidence for Christ, refusing to believe, don't those people have to REPENT of their refusal to believe, in order to then be right with God through Christ? 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: It took a while to get here, but I'm glad we did. So you are saying that free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one goes to heaven. We're on the same page here. IF one can exercise that free-will.... Quote Now where does the free will come into place? Is it not by way of resisting the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin? If one refuses to repent, one will be lost. But if one responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, then one will be saved. Do you agree with this? Did the thief on the cross repent?
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Christ. Perhaps you have a problem with addition? Let's count: God"....raised us up with Him , and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 1 + 1 = 2 Us + Christ were raised and taken to heaven in Christ Jesus.
Wingnut Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 To me all it boils down to is this. Those God likes, He gets them to share eternity with Him. And who does He like? Those who like Him, and who are prepared to act sociably. God knows that mankind is pretty messed up to start off with, perhaps from being born into an abusive environment, so God offers His help if we are willing to clean ourselves up and become acceptable to God. God owes no man anything. Its an eternal party and its by invitation only, and we have this lifetime to become Christ's friends by doing what friends do - spend time with each other (pray & spend time together e.g.. Sabbath) and try not to annoy each other (keep the law), and try to please one another (preach the Gospel etc). But in the end, there is no guarantee of salvation. That is what "saved by grace" means.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 17 hours ago, Robert said: "In Him" we were made obedient. (Titus 3:4-7) Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, (how?) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Christ appeared about 2000 years ago. What did He do? "He saved us". How? "Not by works of righteousness which we have done". Then how? Through washing & regeneration of the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on us, where? "In Christ Jesus". "For the law of the spirit of life (the power of the Holy Spirit) in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death" [Rom 8:2] So "in Christ" the Holy Spirit defeated "the law of sin" (our fallen nature) and hence In Him" we were made obedient to God's law and therefore we escape the curse of the law (death). Therefore in Christ we are already sanctified! "By this will (Christ's dong & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 Quote To me all it boils down to is this. Those God likes, He gets them to share eternity with Him. I can tell you the self-righteous will not be in heaven. Mark 2:17"I did not come to call the righteous (the self-righteous), but sinners.”
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 5 hours ago, Robert said: Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, (how?) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Christ appeared about 2000 years ago. What did He do? "He saved us". How? "Not by works of righteousness which we have done". Then how? Through washing & regeneration of the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on us, where? "In Christ Jesus". "For the law of the spirit of life (the power of the Holy Spirit) in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death" [Rom 8:2] So "in Christ" the Holy Spirit defeated "the law of sin" (our fallen nature) and hence In Him" we were made obedient to God's law and therefore we escape the curse of the law (death). Therefore in Christ we are already sanctified! "By this will (Christ's dong & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10 1 Cor 1:30 But of him (God the Father) are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption. Who put you into Christ? God the Father. You weren't put into Christ when you believed or did good works. Christ united your life from Adam with the Divinity of Christ in Mary's womb. Therefore you were united with Christ at the incarnation. In doing and dying of Christ you were sanctified; you have met the justice of God's law; and you were redeemed from sin (glorified) and taken to heaven. All these you already have "in Christ" before you were even born. Therefore it's a finished work. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 The humanity of Christ constitutes a vital part of the gospel message, since it is in that humanity that mankind was redeemed from sin. The truth of justification by faith, restored by the Reformation, goes beyond a legal or forensic redemption. In Christ’s holy history, mankind was totally saved from sin, not just its guilt and punishment. Thus, in Christ’s earthly mission, justification, sanctification, as well as glorification, were fully accomplished for fallen humanity. [JS]
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 ...the “moral influence theory,” which does present God as love but at the expense of God’s justice. You cannot present one truth at the expense of another. That is not the gospel. At the cross, love and justice met together. You see, the moral influence theory is heretical not because of what it teaches but what it denies. It denies the legal framework of the atonement. It teaches that Christ did not have to die to pay any price to save us. He died only to demonstrate that He loves us. So while we shared the objectives, the answer was, “No,” we cannot agree with the method. [JS] Is this what you teach, pnattmbtc, the moral influence theory? It sure sounds like it and Jack has exposed this heresy because of what it denies.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Quote Me: Now where does the free will come into place? Is it not by way of resisting the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin? If one refuses to repent, one will be lost. But if one responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, then one will be saved. Do you agree with this? Robert: Did the thief on the cross repent? Of course. What does this have to do with my question? I'll assume you agree. The point I want to get to is this. You and I are in agreement that, for those who have the ability to make choices, free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one will be saved. But this is free will regarding what? It's not going to be free will rejecting the finished work of Christ, at least not in the mind of the lost person, because of the thousands or more of lost people, virtually none of them will be thinking "I choose to reject the finished work of Christ." Indeed, probably nobody will be lost having this thought. Instead they will be lost refusing to respond to the goodness of God leading them to repentance. Similarly if one is saved, it is because they have responded to agape. So one need know nothing about the corporate/forensic idea to be either lost or saved. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 10 hours ago, Robert said: Perhaps you have a problem with addition? Let's count: God"....raised us up with Him , and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 1 + 1 = 2 Us + Christ were raised and taken to heaven in Christ Jesus. Why are you posting this? How does is it tie in with something which was posted before? Please post respectfully. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 9 hours ago, Wingnut said: To me all it boils down to is this. Those God likes, He gets them to share eternity with Him. And who does He like? Those who like Him, and who are prepared to act sociably. God knows that mankind is pretty messed up to start off with, perhaps from being born into an abusive environment, so God offers His help if we are willing to clean ourselves up and become acceptable to God. God owes no man anything. Its an eternal party and its by invitation only, and we have this lifetime to become Christ's friends by doing what friends do - spend time with each other (pray & spend time together e.g.. Sabbath) and try not to annoy each other (keep the law), and try to please one another (preach the Gospel etc). But in the end, there is no guarantee of salvation. That is what "saved by grace" means. Not so much if God likes them, but if they like God. If they don't like God, they wouldn't be happy in heaven, so why would God take them there? To make them miserable? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert said: ...the “moral influence theory,” which does present God as love but at the expense of God’s justice. You cannot present one truth at the expense of another. That is not the gospel. At the cross, love and justice met together. You see, the moral influence theory is heretical not because of what it teaches but what it denies. It denies the legal framework of the atonement. It teaches that Christ did not have to die to pay any price to save us. He died only to demonstrate that He loves us. So while we shared the objectives, the answer was, “No,” we cannot agree with the method. [JS] Is this what you teach, pnattmbtc, the moral influence theory? It sure sounds like it and Jack has exposed this heresy because of what it denies. The moral influence theory was Abelgard, which was a response to Anselm, the forensic idea (beginnings of it anyway). These were around the 11th century A.D. The fully developed forensic view was Calvin, many centuries later, so this is quite a recent idea. The idea I've been presenting is more along the lines of "Christus Victor" (of which there are several forms), which the early Christian writers did have. I already posted an outline of it, from A G Maxwell. In Adventism, it's largely known as "the larger view". There are several places in the Spirit of Prophecy which discuss it. The chapter "It Is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages" is one. The first chapter of the same book is another. Another is the article from Signs of the Times January 1890 called something like "Christ Manifest in the Flesh." Edited January 13, 2016 by pnattmbtc Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 9 hours ago, Robert said: Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, (how?) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Christ appeared about 2000 years ago. What did He do? "He saved us". How? "Not by works of righteousness which we have done". Then how? Through washing & regeneration of the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on us, where? "In Christ Jesus". "For the law of the spirit of life (the power of the Holy Spirit) in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death" [Rom 8:2] So "in Christ" the Holy Spirit defeated "the law of sin" (our fallen nature) and hence In Him" we were made obedient to God's law and therefore we escape the curse of the law (death). Therefore in Christ we are already sanctified! "By this will (Christ's dong & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10 This is no way to do exegesis. You're just grabbing fragments of verses hither and yon and throwing them together, interjecting your own thoughts in where you feel like it. One could "prove" anything working like this. Instead of this, much better would be to take one passage, and try to develop the thought of that passage, taking the context into consideration, try to reconstruct the thought of the author. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 25 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one will be saved. No, no....They are already saved, but some reject that salvation.....
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Please post respectfully. You mean like this? Quote covering up your lack of logic with stupid emoticons. More logic please, and less stupid emoticons.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 Do you deny the legal framework of the atonement?
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 17 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: This is no way to do exegesis. You're just grabbing fragments of verses hither and yon and throwing them together, interjecting your own thoughts in where you feel like it. One could "prove" anything working like this. Instead of this, much better would be to take one passage, and try to develop the thought of that passage, taking the context into consideration, try to reconstruct the thought of the author. So instead of looking at the passage I quoted you attack the messenger? Have it your way....
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 30 minutes ago, Robert said: No, no....They are already saved, but some reject that salvation..... "Saved" in context means "goes to heaven." i.e. free will is the deciding factor as to whether or not one will be in the second resurrection. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 28 minutes ago, Robert said: You mean like this? No, not like that. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 25 minutes ago, Robert said: So instead of looking at the passage I quoted you attack the messenger? Have it your way.... You didn't quote a passage. You cited little fragments of verses hither and yon, and underlined certain places, as if a coherent argument could be put together by taking a phrase from this book, and one from that. I didn't attack the messenger, but point out the messenger did not present a coherent message. Why not take the passage in Hebrews 10 and explain what you think it means. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 We've been discussing just WHEN people were/or become "in Christ". Robert has focused on the words "in Christ" and he believes that all humanity was "in Christ" when He died on the cross. We've also been discussing just HOW people became/become "in Christ". Was it because Christ incorporated all humanity into Himself on the cross? Or is it because individuals believe in what Christ did? Consider Paul's statement: Romans 16:7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. (NIV) They WERE - before I WAS - in Christ. Seems pretty obvious that the individuals mentioned by Paul, became "in Christ" AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN TIME. Which means that everyone did NOT become "in Christ" at the moment Christ died on the cross. Paul understood that he was NOT "in Christ" before he believed, and he did not believe until the Damascus road, which happened some time AFTER Christ died on the cross. 8thdaypriest
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