Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer?

[pnattmbtc]

I think Paul's thought in Colossians was similar to here:

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19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph. 2)

 

[Robert]

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So you read it as follows:

13 For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us [into the church of ] His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

Well, you really didn't answer, but yes that could be an alternative view.  You have a point, but I also think I have a point also.  So this one is debatable.

Perhaps I should use only Eph chatper 2.

[pnattmbtc]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

Paul isn't discussing our "corporate forensic justification" in what you quoted.  It's a straw man. 

 

Why isn't he praying that they understand the gospel? (i.e., your idea of the gospel).  What is he instead praying that they understand agape?  Why is he obsessed with this?  He says this was his constant prayer, so it was extremely important to him.  Why?

The very fact this this *was* important to Paul doesn't jibe with your perspective.

[Robert]

So, since Col 1:13 could be interpreted both ways, let's go to something clear:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why isn't he praying that they understand the gospel?

Because that's not what Paul is discussing.  Stop asking ridiculous questions!  Paul is discussing God's love (agape) in your supplied quote.  

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

So, since Col 1:13 could be interpreted both ways, let's go to something clear:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Okay, twist this one out of context. 

[pnattmbtc]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

So, since Col 1:13 could be interpreted both ways, let's go to something clear:

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Why do you think Col 1:13 can be interpreted both ways?  Here's what Col. 1:13 says:

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¹³ For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Your idea is that this means "Who hath rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into heaven"?

[pnattmbtc]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

Because that's not what Paul is discussing.  Stop asking ridiculous questions!  Paul is discussing God's love (agape) in your supplied quote.  

Why is he discussing agape?  That's my question.  Why is agape important to Paul?  Why is it so important that they understand agape that he prays for this constantly?

[Robert]

 Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great [agape] with which He [agaped] us, 

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions,

made us alive together with Christ

(by grace you have been saved)

 6 and raised us up with Him (Christ),

and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Because of God's agape, even when we were spiritually dead in our sins, God the Father made us spiritually alive together with Christ.

This refers to the resurrection.  Notice we are saved by grace (no faith mentioned here).

What did God do next after we were raised spiritually alive in Christ?

He seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This refers to Christ's ascension into heaven. 

[Robert]

10 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why do you think Col 1:13 can be interpreted both ways? 

Your idea is that this means "Who hath rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into heaven"?

Yes, because that's similar to what Paul states in Eph 2:6

[Robert]

15 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why is he discussing agape?  That's my question.  Why is agape important to Paul?  Why is it so important that they understand agape that he prays for this constantly?

Agape is very important to understand God.  We understand agape through Christ's cross.  I'll give you a sample from Sequeria:

But some will argue, “How could Christ die the second death? He predicted His resurrection, and He actually rose the third day. How could He experience it?” First of all, the Bible says so. Heb. 2:9: “He tasted death for all men.” It could not be the first death because believers who accept Christ still have to die the first death. Then look at what Paul says in 2 Tim. 1:7-10. He says that Christ, through the cross, has “abolished death.” If He abolished death why do Christians die? Because He abolished only the second death, not the first death. Rev. 20:6 tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection, i.e., the believers, on such the second death has no power. Why? Because there was One who was willing to go through it for us, to taste it.

The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. When you realize that is how much God loves you, can you be the same again? 

[Robert]

Hey, I'm taking a break....Read the above...The whole thing is here: http://www.jacksequeira.org/cross2.htm

[pnattmbtc]

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In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. When you realize that is how much God loves you, can you be the same again?

This is making my point.  No, we can't be the same.  This is the power of agape, the power of the gospel; it changes us.

[Robert]

9 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This is making my point.  No, we can't be the same.  This is the power of agape, the power of the gospel; it changes us.

But that, in itself, is not why you have a ticket to heaven.  It's because of what Christ did in our corporate humanity.

If agape has totally changed you then you would be living Christ's selfless life.  Besides if this change is what saves us then you are preaching a subtle form of works.

[Robert]

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [RC 76.5]

There's only one way to heaven and that's by our position "in Christ".

What does that mean?

"In Him" we were made obedient. (Titus 3:4-7 NKJV)

"In Him" we died to the demands of the justice of the law. (Romans 6:6/7:4/2 Cor 5:14)

"In Him" our "new creation" was resurrected. (Eph 2:5)

"In Him" our "new creation" was taken to heaven. (Eph 2:6)

And "in Him" Christ presents our "new creation" before God and His law in the most holy place. (Heb 10:19,20)

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me:This is making my point.  No, we can't be the same.  This is the power of agape, the power of the gospel; it changes us.

Robert:But that, in itself, is not why you have a ticket to heaven.  It's because of what Christ did in our corporate humanity.

If agape has totally changed you then you would be living Christ's selfless life.  Besides if this change is what saves us then you are preaching a subtle form of works.

 

Out ticket to heaven, if you want to call it that, is based on God's character.  Because God is how He is (gracious, merciful, compassionate, loving) He forgives.  As AGM (A Graham Maxwell) put it, God is forgiveness personified.  We see this acted out in Jesus' life.  He always forgave.  Even on the cross, He prayed for forgiveness for those who were torturing him.

The question arises, why doesn't this ticket work for everyone?

My answer would be that the Holy Spirit is leading all to repentance, but if they stubbornly refuse to repent, God will not take them to heaven against their will.  They would be miserable in heaven.  For all who do not steadfastly refuse to repent, they will be taken to heaven, as per John 3:14-16.

What's your answer?  Why doesn't the ticket work for everyone?

Also, you still have not come to terms with the agape question.  Yes, you were able to quote something nice from Sequeira, but agape was an all consuming theme for Paul.  He prayed constantly that those he was addressing would know agape.  Why did he do so?  The answer you quoted for me is because agape changes people, and I fully agree with this answer.  Are you happy with this as an answer as to why Paul prayed constantly that his hearers knew agape?  Because if the knew it, they would never by the same?

[pnattmbtc]

3 hours ago, Robert said:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [RC 76.5]

There's only one way to heaven and that's by our position "in Christ".

What does that mean?

"In Him" we were made obedient. (Titus 3:4-7 NKJV)

"In Him" we died to the demands of the justice of the law. (Romans 6:6/7:4/2 Cor 5:14)

"In Him" our "new creation" was resurrected. (Eph 2:5)

"In Him" our "new creation" was taken to heaven. (Eph 2:6)

And "in Him" Christ presents our "new creation" before God and His law in the most holy place. (Heb 10:19,20)

 

Consider the publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner."  Jesus said he went away justified.  What were the mechanics?

1.The Holy Spirit convicted the publican.

2.The publican pleaded for mercy.

3.God granted him mercy.

4.He went home justified.

The foundation for this is the character of God, who is forgiveness personified.

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, Robert said:

Because the gospel is what Christ did....Faith is a response to what Christ has already accomplished. Hence we call this  justification by faith.

 This thread is on the gospel.  Not the believer's faith or anything else.  The gospel:  The birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ and what He accomplished.  

We are "saved by grace, through faith" (Eph 2:8).  Grace is God's part.  Faith is our response to the grace of God.  It takes BOTH.  The person who does NOT respond with faith, to the grace of God, will not inherit eternal life with Jesus.

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

13 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We are "saved by grace, through faith" (Eph 2:8).  Grace is God's part.  Faith is our response to the grace of God.  It takes BOTH.  The person who does NOT respond with faith, to the grace of God, will not inherit eternal life with Jesus.

 

 

I agree.  And it's not because God has made an arbitrary requirement that this should be the case, but it's simply reality, the way things work.  God grants us grace because it is His character to do so, because God is agape.  When we perceive something of the agape of God, that changes us, and, if we do not resist the working of the Holy Spirit, we repent, which literally means, from the greek "after mind", meaning we look at things differently than we used to.  Now we want to be friends with God, whereas before we were enemies of God in our mind, alienated from God, but now through the cross, we are brought near, and this is how reconcilation happens!

[Robert]

1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said:

4.He went home justified.

The foundation for this is the character of God, who is forgiveness personified.

He was already justified in Christ.  He received this by faith.

God can't forgive just because He is agape.  Otherwise Christ, our corporate man, need not have taken the curse of the law.  The law's justice had to be fulfilled. Otherwise God couldn't legally forgive sinners.

pnattmbtc, what you are presenting is not the gospel.  It's a hybrid of salvation by works.  It's just that simple.

[Robert]

54 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We are "saved by grace, through faith" (Eph 2:8).  Grace is God's part.  Faith is our response to the grace of God.  It takes BOTH.  The person who does NOT respond with faith, to the grace of God, will not inherit eternal life with Jesus.

Wrong!  Here's where you go off the deep end.  This is typical Arminianism. 

Faith is the response to those who hear the gospel.  Some haven't heard it and others couldn't comprehend it (like infants), yet these will be saved.  How?  Not by faith, but because God has reconciled the world to Himself in Christ Jesus. So what Christ did isn't provisional.  The sinner has been reconciled...the sinner has been justified.  Now, the sinner can chose to throw it away, but that's his/her problem.

[Robert]

Let me quote Jack Sequeira again.  BTW, he was introduced to the "in Christ" motif from Wieland, but both actually learned this truth from the writings of the Apostle Paul:

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers

This conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

 

[8thdaypriest]

35 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I agree.  And it's not because God has made an arbitrary requirement that this should be the case, but it's simply reality, the way things work.  God grants us grace because it is His character to do so, because God is agape.  When we perceive something of the agape of God, that changes us, and, if we do not resist the working of the Holy Spirit, we repent, which literally means, from the greek "after mind", meaning we look at things differently than we used to.  Now we want to be friends with God, whereas before we were enemies of God in our mind, alienated from God, but now through the cross, we are brought near, and this is how reconcilation happens!

To repent also means to "turn around" or "turn back" - to walk in the opposite direction.  You saw the post where Paul says God is not willing that any should perish, but that they "come to repentance".  That verse suggest strongly that people start out going in the wrong direction - towards death.  They must turn around (repent) and begin walking in the "ways of God" or they WILL be lost.  People must "come to repentance".   They are NOT already there.  They don't start out walking with the LORD. 

[pnattmbtc]

15 hours ago, Robert said:

Well, you really didn't answer, but yes that could be an alternative view.  You have a point, but I also think I have a point also.  So this one is debatable.

Perhaps I should use only Eph chatper 2.

Regarding the Colossians passage, I think there's a standard way of interpreting this, which you could see in any commentary, and I agree with that.  We were under the dominion/power of Satan before we were converted, but now we're not.  It's a very simple idea.

Regarding Ephesians 2, you can use that, but what's your point?  I don't see how this would help in answering the question you raised regarding what the new creature or new creation is in 2 Cor. 5.

I think your idea in 2 Cor. 5, that the new creation is I guess something that happened in a specific moment of time, and involves all men, has several problems:

1.In contradicts Paul's own thought, as shown by verse 20, "be ye reconciled to God."  If your idea were correct, Paul could hardly have said this!  He can't say our message to people who have already been reconciled is you should be reconciled.  It would have to be "you are reconciled.  Now accept this fact".

2.There's all sorts of problems with trying to ascribe what Paul is talking about her to a certain point in time which involves everybody.  For example, it would mean that someone like Abraham, who died before this happened, wasn't reconciled, since Christ hadn't died yet.

3.It looks like Paul was referring to an already existing idea, such as expressed in Ezekel 36:22, which speaks of putting a heart of flesh in place.  There's also references like this in Jeremiah.  There's no idea you are suggesting which Paul could have been referring to.

4.Paul uses the same expression "a new creation", in Galatians 6, and the context doesn't your idea.

5.Your idea is predicated on there being a forensic problem, and this wasn't an issue for either Paul or his hearers.  This simply isn't how 1st century Jews looked at things.  There is a lot of scholarship on this point.  This is retrofitting Luther to make Paul fit with Luther's theology, but these forensic issues were issues for Luther, because of where he was theologically in regards to the Catholic church, but Paul's circumstances and understanding was very different that Luther's.

[pnattmbtc]

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8th day:To repent also means to "turn around" or "turn back" - to walk in the opposite direction. 

Repent comes from the greek μετάνοια which means literally "after mind", or changing one's mind.  If one changes one mind, it follows one will do different things.