pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: Me:I disagree with the assumed premise here. I don't see that the problem God had to solve was a forensic one, but rather see the problem was one involving His character. I don't think Paul was concerned with the same issues Luther was. Robert: We are back to salvation by character development. Again, this is subtle legalism. I posted the process of salvation which I agree with in the post above this one. I see no subtle legalism anywhere in that quote. Do you? If so, where? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Quote How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. I'm reposting the quote, because in my browser it made it into a separate page, so I'm assuming that happened to you to. This is to make it easier for you to respond to my question, so you don't have to flip back to the other page. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: I posted the process of salvation which I agree with in the post above this one. I see no subtle legalism anywhere in that quote. Do you? If so, where? Character development, instead of salvation by Christ alone in what He did in His birth, life, death and resurrection - is legalism.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Robert said: Character development, instead of salvation by Christ alone in what He did in His birth, life, death and resurrection - is legalism. Assuming we have free will, and Christ has been presented to us, don't we need to believe in Christ in order to be raised in the second resurrection? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 7 minutes ago, Robert said: Then you must die!!! You received from Adam a life that is not only polluted with self, but loves sin. You are also imperfect and therefore you "fall short" of God's agape. Hence He can't take you to heaven, or you would make heaven, hell. Not to be picking on you, this is true of all of us as children of Adam. Therefore God has to abandon you, as He did Christ who became sin for us, and you must take the curse of the law...the 2nd death. This is where the logic of your theology takes you....
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: Assuming we have free will, and Christ has been presented to us, don't we need to believe in Christ in order to be raised in the second resurrection? Faith is accepting what He has already done....Go figure.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Also, you're raising a red herring. Character development is not the means to salvation, but the result of faith in Christ. But one's salvation is dependent upon the goodness of God, and only God is good. Look at the EGW quote I proved; that should be clear enough. Where is the legalism there? Consider the publican who asked for mercy. "God, be merciful to me a sinner". He went away justified. Where's the legalism? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Robert said: Faith is accepting what He has already done....Go figure. You mean simply a cognitive thing? A recognition of a fact? That's all that involved? Is there an act of the will to repent and accept Christ as one's personal savior? Is this necessary? Is it necessary to be born again? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Also, you're raising a red herring. Character development is not the means to salvation, but the result of faith in Christ. But one's salvation is dependent upon the goodness of God, and only God is good. Yes, because of what God did "in Christ", i.e., Christ legally answered the demands of His law, God can have mercy on you.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Robert said: Yes, because of what He did "in Christ", i.e., He legally answer the demands of His law and you, the sinner, can be delivered from under the curse to under grace. The law is a transcript of God's character. There's not demand of the law which isn't a demand of God. The reason the wicked die is not because of an act of God, but as a result of their own choice: Quote The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The law is a transcript of God's character. There's not demand of the law which isn't a demand of God. The reason the wicked die is not because of an act of God, but as a result of their own choice: A choice to accept Christ's righteousness, that answer God's law, or they can stand before His law in their own righteousness, which is filthy rags.
Robert Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: There's not demand of the law which isn't a demand of God. That goes without saying.... But Paul doesn't use your terminology. He used the word "law". For example: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us the law brings wrath I'll stick with the way Paul states it...
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 16 minutes ago, Robert said: A choice to accept Christ's righteousness, that answer God's law, or they can stand before His law in their own righteousness, which is filthy rags. The issue isn't the law. Consider the following: Quote The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. The issue is people separating themselves from God, and thus cutting themselves off from God. God needed to figure out a way to get people to quit doing this. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, Robert said: That goes without saying.... But Paul doesn't use your terminology. He used the word "law". For example: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us the law brings wrath I'll stick with the way Paul states it... Waggoner stuck with the way Paul stated it. I agree with what Waggoner wrote. (I'm talking about what I posted regarding Gal. 3:10 and Gal. 3:13). Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 God cannot lawfully forgive sins without the shedding of blood (death). Therefore, before the cross event, God forgave the sins of the Old Testament believers out of His kindness or patience. But since Christ met the justice of the law for the sins of the entire human race on the cross, God is just in forgiving all who come to Him through the shed blood of His Son. This is what Christ meant when He instituted the Lord’s supper, “This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins” (see Matthew 26:28). [JS]
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote God cannot lawfully forgive sins without the shedding of blood (death). Therefore, before the cross event, God forgave the sins of the Old Testament believers out of His kindness or patience. But since Christ met the justice of the law for the sins of the entire human race on the cross, God is just in forgiving all who come to Him through the shed blood of His Son. This is what Christ meant when He instituted the Lord’s supper, “This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins” (see Matthew 26:28). [JS] Here are some arguments that God can forgive without blood. 1.God did so several times in the person of Jesus Christ: For example: Quote 1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. 3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. Mark 2 He did this elsewhere too. 2.God offered to forgive Lucifer: Quote God, in his great mercy, bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon, on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise, were made to convince him of his error. (GC 495) If death were necessary for God to forgive, how could He have forgiven Lucifer? But He would have, with no death, had Lucifer repented. The point was made that before the cross God forgave out of His patience and kindness. God has forgiven after the cross for the same reasons as before the cross. We see how God forgives by observing Christ. God forgives because that's His nature, because He is agape. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: The issue is people separating themselves from God, and thus cutting themselves off from God. God needed to figure out a way to get people to quit doing this. Show me this in the Bible. Now, let's look what it means to be under law. You state that the law doesn't condemn. Ex 35:1 These are the words the Lord has commanded to be observed.2 On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be holy to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death. 3 You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.” Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death,as the Lord commanded Moses. So the law doesn't condemn? Rom 9:31 What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith; 31 but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law? 32 Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. We have two choices: 1] Accept Christ's fulfillment of the law in His doing & dying as our corporate man, or 2] remain under law and the penalty of death like the Jews in the OT.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The point was made that before the cross God forgave out of His patience and kindness. God forgave out of His mercy because He knew that His Son, Jesus, would legally redeem the world unto Himself. Quote God can forgive without blood Heb 9:22 without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Who should I believe? The Bible and the Bible only; not pnattmbtc and his strange ideas.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: If death were necessary for God to forgive, how could He have forgiven Lucifer? But He would have, with no death, had Lucifer repented. I like many things EGW presents, but really where is this in the Bible? Remember, she is not the measuring stick of truth, the Bible is....Show me in the Bible where this is stated....
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote Robert: The issue is people separating themselves from God, and thus cutting themselves off from God. God needed to figure out a way to get people to quit doing this. Show me this in the Bible. For convenience, I'll reproduce the statement to be shown from Scripture: The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. This all seems self-evident. I'll split it out: 1.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. 2.God is the fountain of life. 3.When one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God. 4.Thus the sinner cuts himself off from life. Which of these points do you disagree with? Or do not see in Scripture? Quote Now, let's look what it means to be under law. You state that the law doesn't condemn. Where did I say the law doesn't condemn? Quote Ex 35:1 These are the words the Lord has commanded to be observed.2 On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be holy to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death. 3 You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.” Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death,as the Lord commanded Moses. So the law doesn't condemn? First of all, where did I say the law doesn't condemn? Secondly, why are you talking about this law? What does this law have to do with anything? Thirdly, the punishment of this law is the first death. You're not asserting Christ died to keep men from receiving the punishment of the first death, so how does this help prove your way of thinking? Quote Rom 9:31 What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith; 31 but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law? 32 Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. We have two choice: 1] Accept Christ's fulfillment of the law in His doing & dying as our corporate man, or 2] remain under law and the penalty of death like the Jews in the OT. First of all, why would you think this? I mean, what Scripture says anything like what you are asserting. Secondly, consider any Christian living, say, between Luther and William Miller. Can you name one who accepted Christ's fulfillment of the law in His doing & dying as our corporate man? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote Robert: God forgave out of His mercy because He knew that His Son, Jesus, would legally redeem the world unto Himself. I showed from Scripture that Jesus forgave without blood. There was no blood involved. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Where did I say the law doesn't condemn? Me: The law demands our death You: You've never proved this.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: I showed from Scripture that Jesus forgave without blood. There was no blood involved. No you didn't.... Rom 3:22 For there is no distinction; 23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, 26 through the forbearance of God.... Before the cross God forgave out of His forbearance, but after the cross Christ can legally forgive sin based on His redemption through His blood (His life laid down in death)
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 God can forgive without blood Heb 9:22 without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Who should I believe? The Bible and the Bible only; not pnattmbtc and his strange ideas. First of all, how does being pejorative help? Secondly, these aren't my strange ideas. I didn't originate them. Have you read Waggoner, whom we are told the Lord in his great mercy sent us a most precious message? My thoughts here are not different than Waggoner's. I said God can forgive without blood. I didn't say there is forgiveness without blood. Who needs the blood? Does God need it to forgive, or do we need it to be forgiven? Quote A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. “Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God’s wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible. It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased. “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death.” Colossians 1:21, 22 The Christian idea of propitiation is that set forth above. The heathen idea, which is too often held by professed Christians, is that men must provide a sacrifice to appease the wrath of their god. All heathen worship is simply a bribe to their gods to be favorable to them. If they thought that their gods were very angry with them, they would provide a greater sacrifice, and so human sacrifices were offered in extreme cases. They thought, as the worshipers of Siva in India do to-day, that their god was gratified by the sight of blood. The persecution that was carried on in so-called Christian countries in times past and is to some extent even now, is but the outcropping of this heathen idea of propitiation. Ecclesiastical leaders imagine that salvation is by works and that men by works can atone for sin, and so they offer the one whom they think rebellious as a sacrifice to their god not to the true God, because he is not pleased with such sacrifices. (Waggoner on Romans) It's not just Waggoner either. For example, from the 1897 General Conference Bulletin Quote Every passage of Scripture that refers to the reconciliation or atonement, or to the propitiation, always represents God as the one who makes this atonement, reconciliation, or propitiation, in Christ; we are always the ones atoned for, the ones to be reconciled. For us it was done, in order that, as Peter says, he might bring us to God.... This is as near to the Lord as we can get. This is the at-one-ment; this is why he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, that he might do that for us by breaking down all those things which separate hearts from hearts, both human and divine. Notwithstanding this, we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. That was what we thought about it. We said, God is doing all this; God is killing him, punishing him, to satisfy his wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice. The Christian idea of sacrifice is this. Let us note the contrast. “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” That is the Christian idea. Yes, sir. Indifference keeps, hatred keeps, selfishness keeps, or gives, if at all, but grudgingly, counting the cost, and figuring on some larger return at some future time. But love, and love only, sacrifices, gives freely, gives itself, gives without counting the cost; gives because it is love. That is sacrifice, whether it is the sacrifice of bulls and goats, or of him who is the Lamb of God. It is the sacrifice that is revealed throughout the entire Bible. But the pagan idea of sacrifice is just the opposite. It is that some god is always offended, always angry, and his wrath must be propitiated in some way. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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