Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer?

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: I showed from Scripture that Jesus forgave without blood.  There was no blood involved.

Robert: No you didn't....

 

Yes I did.  Right here:

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1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

5 minutes ago, Robert said:

No you didn't....

Rom 3:22 For there is no distinction; 23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, 26 through the forbearance of God....

Before the cross God forgave out of His forbearance, but after the cross Christ can legally forgive sin based on His redemption through His blood (His life laid down in death)

This is pretty cool.  I addressed this passage before I read your post.  I have two quotes, one from Waggoner, and one from Fifleld ( contemporary of his), who discuss this passage.

You're coming from things with the perspective that it is God who needs blood in order to forgive, but:

1.There is no evidence that this is His character.  Consider Jesus Christ.  Where do we see anything in His character (which was the same as God's) which would suggest He could not forgive without blood?

2.Jesus Christ actually did forgive without blood.

3. Nowhere did Jesus in any way come close to teaching that He, or God, needed blood in order to forgive.  If you dispute this, show me some teaching of Jesus which shows this.

4.God would have forgiven Lucifer on the condition of repentance, without blood.

[Robert]

42 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

1.There is no evidence that this is His character.  Consider Jesus Christ.  Where do we see anything in His character (which was the same as God's) which would suggest He could not forgive without blood?

2.Jesus Christ actually did forgive without blood.

3. Nowhere did Jesus in any way come close to teaching that He, or God, needed blood in order to forgive.  If you dispute this, show me some teaching of Jesus which shows this.

4.God would have forgiven Lucifer on the condition of repentance, without blood

You are massively confused on this topic...massively!. 

Heb 10:1 For the law (i.e., the ceremonial laws dealing food, drink and animal sacrifices), having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He (Christ as God) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You (God the Father) did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me!  6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’” 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first (the sacrificial system) that He may establish the second (the sacrifice of Himself). 

10 By that will (by Christ doing and dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Sin can only be forgiven by the body of Christ laid down in death.  Through that offering we have be set apart once for all. 

Therefore Christ can forgive sin based on the legal framework of the atonement, that is, His finished work. 

Anything outside this a lie from hell and I, for one, I'm not interested in hearing rubbish.

 

[Robert]

13 minutes ago, Robert said:

Heb 10:10 By that will (by Christ doing and dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now the warning:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., Heb 10:10), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (2nd death, compare Rev 21:8). 

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses (therefore this was a type of the 2nd death). 

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (again, see Heb 10:10) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[Robert]

17 minutes ago, Robert said:

Now the warning:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., Heb 10:10), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (2nd death, compare Rev 21:8). 

The willful sin here is not sin against the law, but the sin of unbelief in the finished work of Christ through the sacrifice of Himself.  Once you reject the necessity of Christ's corporate death (compare Rom 6:6/7:4/2 Cor 5:14) for the forgiveness of all sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.  This means you have apostatized from "the truth as it is in Christ" and now you must die the 2nd death.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”  Rev 21:8

[Robert]

44 minutes ago, Robert said:

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ as God) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You (God the Father) did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me!....7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’” 

Notice that "a body" was prepared for the Divinity of Christ. 

From where did that body come?

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman...

Answer: Mary

Rom 1:3...concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh (from Mary), 4 and declared to be the Son of God....

So the Divinity of Christ was united to "the seed of David according to the flesh" in the womb of Mary.

Now, what happened at the cross?

"Our old life (i.e., the corporate life we all share with fallen Adam) was crucified with Him, (why?)  that the body of sin might be done away" Rom 6:6

"Therefore, you also died to the law (it demanded your death) through the body of Christ" Rom 7:4

Romans 5:9 "Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath (the 2nd death) through Him. 10 ... when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

41 minutes ago, Robert said:

You are massively confused on this topic...massively!. 

No I'm not.  How is what I'm saying any different than what Jesus Christ taught?

[Robert]

5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

No I'm not.  How is what I'm saying any different than what Jesus Christ taught?

You are massively confused...I'm worried where this might take you.  Please pray about it....

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The willful sin here is not sin against the law, but the sin of unbelief in the finished work of Christ through the sacrifice of Himself.  Once you reject the necessity of Christ's corporate death (compare Rom 6:6/7:4/2 Cor 5:14) for the forgiveness of all sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.  This means you have apostatized from "the truth as it is in Christ" and now you must die the 2nd death

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Sin can only be forgiven by the body of Christ laid down in death.  Through that offering we have be set apart once for all. 

Therefore Christ can forgive sin based on the legal framework of the atonement, that is, His finished work. 

Anything outside this a lie from hell and I, for one, I'm not interested in hearing rubbish.

 

You should control yourself.  First of all, writing like this is hardly evidence speaking in favor of your position, right?  Secondly, my position is the same as E. J. Waggoner's on this, whom a prophet of the Lord has said brought a message from Him, so you should be careful with your language, in case she might be right.

Also, out of 100,000 Christians, I doubt you'd find even one who hold the same position you do.  Are you going to say that 99.9999% of Christians are believing lies from hell and speaking rubbish you won't hear?

[pnattmbtc]

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Now the warning:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., Heb 10:10), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (2nd death, compare Rev 21:8). 

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses (therefore this was a type of the 2nd death). 

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (again, see Heb 10:10) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

What do you think this means?

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

You should control yourself.  First of all, writing like this is hardly evidence speaking in favor of your position, right?  Secondly, my position is the same as E. J. Waggoner's on this, whom a prophet of the Lord has said brought a message from Him, so you should be careful with your language, in case she might be right.

Also, out of 100,000 Christians, I doubt you'd find even one who hold the same position you do.  Are you going to say that 99.9999% of Christians are believing lies from hell and speaking rubbish you won't hear?

Your worried...so you're grabbing at anything you can find.  Just accept the truth.  

[Robert]

6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

...my position is the same as E. J. Waggoner's....Also, out of 100,000 Christians, I doubt you'd find even one who hold the same position you do. 

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. 

[pnattmbtc]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me:You should control yourself.  First of all, writing like this is hardly evidence speaking in favor of your position, right?  Secondly, my position is the same as E. J. Waggoner's on this, whom a prophet of the Lord has said brought a message from Him, so you should be careful with your language, in case she might be right.

Also, out of 100,000 Christians, I doubt you'd find even one who hold the same position you do.  Are you going to say that 99.9999% of Christians are believing lies from hell and speaking rubbish you won't hear?

Robert:Your worried...so your grabbing at anything you can find.  Just accept the truth.

 

I'd be worried if I believed something which led me to write in the vituperous way you are writing.

 

[Robert]

I think you and I need a break....Let's let things cools

2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I'd be worried if I believed something which led me to write in the vituperous way you are writing.

 

Let's keep to the subject....You need to accept the fact that without Christ's corporate death you would never, ever,  enter the kingdom of God, period!

[Robert]

11 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

What do you think this means?

Read and stop twisting....Stop distorting....It's not rocket science. 

[pnattmbtc]

I think you and I need a break....Let's let things cools

6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

 

 

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Robert: Let's keep to the subject....You need to accept the fact that without Christ's corporate death you never enter the kingdom of God, period!

We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself.  That is the formula.  That is Christianity.  That is what has to be believed.  Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself.  All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us.  Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory.  If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so?  And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead?  None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense.  On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not.  Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.

Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into?  He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself.  In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms.  Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole."  This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance.  Now repentance is no fun at all.  It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie.  It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years.  It means undergoing a kind of death.  In fact, it needs a good man to repent.  And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly.  The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it.  The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like.  If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back.  It cannot happen.  Very well, then, we must go through with it.  But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it.  Can we do it if God helps us?  Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us?  We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak.  He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another.  When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them.  We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it.  Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing.  But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die.  Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all.  So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked.  God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us.  He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God.  You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man.  Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man.  That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.

[Robert]

 

30 minutes ago, Robert said:

Notice that "a body" was prepared for the Divinity of Christ. 

From where did that body come?

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman...

Answer: Mary

Rom 1:3...concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh (from Mary), 4 and declared to be the Son of God....

So the Divinity of Christ was united to "the seed of David according to the flesh" in the womb of Mary.

Now, what happened at the cross?

"Our old life (i.e., the corporate life we all share with fallen Adam) was crucified with Him, (why?)  that the body of sin might be done away" Rom 6:6

"Therefore, you also died to the law (it demanded your death) through the body of Christ" Rom 7:4

Romans 5:9 "Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath (the 2nd death) through Him. 10 ... when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

 

The truth will set you free....Get free!

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Now the warning:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., Heb 10:10), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (2nd death, compare Rev 21:8). 

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses (therefore this was a type of the 2nd death). 

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (again, see Heb 10:10) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The warnings needs to be repeated....

[pnattmbtc]

Having trouble with the software + mouseless computer.  The previous post is a quote from C. S. Lewis.  I agree with his perspective.

I can't imagine that God would get angry because a person had an honest misunderstanding of precisely what the correct theory of the atonement is.  What's important is how one responds to the person of Jesus Christ, and the truth He revealed about God, not getting every detail write about a theological concept.

 

[pnattmbtc]

The central Christian belief is that Christ’s death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start.

• Theories about how it works are something else, and are not the thing itself.
• Although there are many Christian theories on how it works, Christians universally agree that it does work.
• Illustration: eating food works whether you have a theory as to how food replenishes the body or not.
• “no explanation will even be quite adequate to the reality.”

 

The above is from C. S. Lewis, in "Mere Christianity", not word for word, but it's taken from what he wrote.

[Robert]

8 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

The previous post is a quote from C. S. Lewis.  I agree with his perspective.

 I don't care...if it doesn't agree with Paul it's rubbish.

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I can't imagine that God would get angry because a person had an honest misunderstanding of precisely what the correct theory of the atonement is.

Those are your words....The gospel is plain for Paul makes it plain.  Lay aside your preconceived ideas and read Paul again and again and again.

[Robert]

5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

C. S. Lewis

Quote those who quote Paul, in context, then I'll listen.

[pnattmbtc]

The point of what C. S. Lewis wrote is that all Christians agree that Christ's life, death, and resurrection was necessary, but at to exactly how and why, there is disagreement.

The perspective I am coming from is that sin leads to death, not because of anything arbitrary that God has to do, but because this is the nature of sin.  Sin, because of what it is, by its nature, leads to death.

Ellen White explained it well.  The logic is simple and straightforward:

1.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.

2.God is the fountain of life;

3.When one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

There are many who agree with this perspective, including E. J. Waggoner, A. T. Jones, George Fifield (whom I quoted earlier), A. Graham Maxwell, Ty Gibson, to name just a few names which comes to mind.  If one takes the position that death is the natural consequence of sin, everything I've been saying follows naturally.

 

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Theories about how it works are something else, and are not the thing itself.

Theories?  That's funny....

What's not funny is Paul said there's just one gospel...one, not two or three, one....Re-read Gal 1:6-9