Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: C. S. Lewis wrote....Ellen White explained....There are many who agree with this perspective, including E. J. Waggoner, A. T. Jones, George Fifield A. Graham Maxwell, Ty Gibson,... Who cares.... I am interested what Paul says....Until you can quote Paul, in context, my attention is going to drift.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote Paul said there's just one gospel...one, not two or three, one This goes along with C. S. Lewis' point. Paul in 1 Cor. 15 explained that the gospel was the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not a theory about the atonement, but the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. C. S. Lewis said that all Christians believe this, which they do. An issue I have with the particular theory you have is that Jesus Christ Himself did not preach it, which you recognize by claiming that Christ did not preach the gospel. I believe Christ did preach the Gospel. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Here's something Paul said: Quote For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (Rom. 9:3) This is the spirit that a correct view of the atonement should lead to. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Why did Jesus teach that no one can enter heaven unless they are born again? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: An issue I have with the particular theory you have is that Jesus Christ Himself did not preach it, which you recognize by claiming that Christ did not preach the gospel. I believe Christ did preach the Gospel. Christ and God the Father picked Paul to explain the gospel. Deal with it....And you do that by reading Paul.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: Christ and God the Father picked Paul to explain the gospel. Deal with it....And you do that by reading Paul. Jesus said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." It cannot possibly be right that we should eschew the words of Christ. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: Why did Jesus teach that no one can enter heaven unless they are born again? I'm staying with Paul right now, you know, the guy that you want to ignore.... Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead) Gal 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God Rom 1:1
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. We receive life by coming to Christ, not by believing a given fact. This is the point Christ is making here. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Jesus said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." It cannot possibly be right that we should eschew the words of Christ. Jesus picked Paul to explain the gospel. Jesus was the gospel. Here's Paul on how you were legally delivered from under the law (the death sentence, i.e., the 2nd death) So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ (compare Rom 6:6)....6 But now, by dying (in Christ) to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law (i.e., the curse)....[Rom 7:4,6 NIV]
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. We receive life by coming to Christ, not by believing a given fact. Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that one must be born again to obtain eternal life? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote 5If we have joined him in dying to self, we will absolutely join him in his resurrection and in new life!6For we know that when our old selfish hearts and fear-ridden minds trust God and surrender to be crucified with Christ–the infection of selfishness is purged, and our hearts are no longer controlled by Satanic principles, 7as anyone who dies to selfishness is free from Satan's methods, principles and control. Romans 6 "The Remedy" Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: We receive life by coming to Christ, not by believing a given fact. Well then, the devil can sneak one on you. Hopefully you accept Christ because you have heard the facts of the gospel. Otherwise there are false Christs... 2 Cor 2:3 For such people are false apostles, deceitfulworkers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. Here's Paul on how you were legally delivered from under the law (the death sentence, i.e., the 2nd death) So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ (compare Rom 6:6)....6 But now, by dying (in Christ) to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law (i.e., the curse)....[Rom 7:4,6 NIV]
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Gregory Matthews has a thread on Tim Jennings. The previous post is from his paraphrase. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: Well then, the devil can sneak one on you. Hopefully you accept Christ because you have heard the facts of the gospel. Otherwise there are false Christs... Here's Paul on how you were legally delivered from under the law (the death sentence, i.e., the 2nd death) So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ (compare Rom 6:6)....6 But now, by dying (in Christ) to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law (i.e., the curse)....[Rom 7:4,6 NIV] Christ is an actual Person, who is alive. Revelation speaks of His knocking at the door and wanting to fellowship with us. This happens when we respond to the appeal of the Holy Spirit, another real Person. It's not what given facts we believe that will determine our destiny, but how we respond to the Person Jesus Christ. This was Christ's point when He said, 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that to enter heaven one must be born again? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 Here's Paul on how you were legally delivered from under the law (the death sentence, i.e., the 2nd death) So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law (it demanded your death) through the body of Christ (compare Rom 6:6)....6 But now, by dying (in Christ) to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law (i.e., the curse)....[Rom 7:4,6 NIV]
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 The Application: As in the illustration there are four subjects, the law, the woman, the first husband, and the second husband so also in the application. We are represented as the woman. This is clear from the statement that we are “married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,” which is Christ. He therefore is the second husband. The first husband is indicated in verse 5: “When we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” Death is the fruit of sin. The first husband, therefore, was the flesh, or “the body of sin.” “Dead to the Law” This is the expression that troubles so many. There is nothing troublesome in it, if we but keep in mind the illustration and the nature of the parties to this transaction. Why are we dead to the law? In order that we might be married to another. But how is it that we become dead in order to be married to another? In the illustration it is the first husband that dies before the woman may be married to another. Even so it is here, as we shall see. “One Flesh” The law of marriage is that the two parties to it “shall be one flesh.” How is it in this case? The first husband is the flesh, the body of sin. Well, we were truly one flesh with that. We were by nature perfectly united to sin. It was our life. It controlled us. Whatever sin devised, that we did. We might have done it unwillingly at times, but we did it nevertheless. Sin reigned in our mortal bodies, so that we obeyed it in the lusts thereof. Whatever sin wished, was law to us. We were one flesh. Seeking a Divorce: There comes a time in our experience when we wish to be free from sin. It is when we see something of the beauty of holiness. With some people the desire is only occasional; with others it is more constant. Whether they recognize the fact or not, it is Christ appealing to them to forsake sin, and to be joined to him, to live with him. And so they endeavor to effect a separation. But sin will not consent. In spite of all that we can do, it still clings to us. We are “one flesh,” and it is a union for life since it is a union of our life to sin. There is no divorce in that marriage. Freedom in Death: There is no hope of effecting a separation from sin by any ordinary means. No matter how much we may desire to be united to Christ, it can not be done while we are joined to sin; for the law will not sanction such a union, and Christ will not enter into any union that is not lawful. If we could only get sin to die, we should be free, but it will not die. There is only one way for us to be freed from the hateful union, and that is for us to die. If we wish freedom so much that we are willing to be crucified, then it may be done. In death the separation is effected; for it is by the body of Christ that “we” become dead. We are crucified with him. The body of sin is also crucified. But while the body of sin is destroyed, we have a resurrection in Christ. The same thing that frees us from the first husband, unites us to the second. A New Creature: Now we see how it is that we are dead to the law. We died in Christ, and were raised in him. But “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18. Now we may be united to Christ, and the law will witness to the union, and sanction it. For not only is the first husband dead, but we also died, so that, although alive, we are not the same creature that we were before. “I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.” Galatians 2:20. We are one. The same law that formerly declared us to be sinners now binds us to Christ. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 The above is Waggoner's understanding of the first part of Romans 7. This is a natural way of reading Paul. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 When you read Paul, you understand what he is saying differently than I do, Robert. You see Paul saying something different that Jesus or John or anyone else I guess. I see that all the inspired writers were saying the same thing and preaching the same gospel. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 What leads us to read Paul differently? It is our perspective, or paradigm. The perspective I have is: 1.The primary problem facing God is that His character has been misrepresented. This is what caused the rebellion. 2.In Jesus Christ the truth about God is revealed. This is the truth that sets us free. 3.Sin causes death by reasons of cause and effect. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: When you read Paul, you understand what he is saying differently than I do, Robert. Prove me wrong then, in context, not by quoting your favorite authors (mere men), but by quoting the measuring stick of truth, the Bible!
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: The above is Waggoner's understanding of the first part of Romans 7. This is a natural way of reading Paul. Pope Waggoner....The guy who what? Apostatized.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: Prove me wrong then, in context, not by quoting your favorite authors (mere men), but by quoting the measuring stick of truth, the Bible! I've been doing this. I quoted Romans 9:3, John 5:39,40, and John 3:14-16. I've asked you repeatedly why John told Nicodemus one must be born again to receive eternal life. You quote other authors as much as anyone else. Why do you do so? I assume it's because they express a thought better than you can, and you agree with the thought. Why shouldn't others be able to do the same as you? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: Prove me wrong then, in context, not by quoting your favorite authors (mere men), but by quoting the measuring stick of truth, the Bible! 1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? .... 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh (lost), the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying (your died in Christ) to what once bound us (the law - see Romans 7:1,4), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
pnattmbtc Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 It is quite possible that Elder Jones and Waggoner may be overthrown by the temptations of the enemy; but if they should be, this would not prove that they had no message from God, or that the work that they had done was all a mistake. But should this happen, how many would take this position, and enter into a fatal delusion because they are not under the control of the Spirit of God. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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