Made Alive TOGETHER with Christ

[Samie]

It's been awhile, brethren. Glad to be back with you again in this forum.

NAS Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Who were made alive together with Christ?

1.  The Ephesian and Colossian believers only, to whom Paul was writing?

2.  All the believers?

3. All people for whom Christ died?

If possible, please explain your answer.

[Samie]

If your answer is not one among the given choices, then you may specify it and explain.

[Robert]

47 minutes ago, Samie said:

3. All people for whom Christ died?

Ellen White:

"Jesus in His glorified humanity has ascended into the heavens to make intercession for us."

"Jesus stands in the holy of holies, now to appear in the presence of God for us. There he ceases not to present his people moment by moment, complete in himself."

"The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God."

 

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Ellen White:

"Jesus in His glorified humanity has ascended into the heavens to make intercession for us."

"Jesus stands in the holy of holies, now to appear in the presence of God for us. There he ceases not to present his people moment by moment, complete in himself."

"The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God."

 

Here's the context of the last EGW quote:

Quote

 

Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. OHC 48.2

The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. OHC 48.3

The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam, through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. OHC 48.4

 

Do you agree with this quote?

[pnattmbtc]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

It's been awhile, brethren. Glad to be back with you again in this forum.

NAS Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Who were made alive together with Christ?

1.  The Ephesian and Colossian believers only, to whom Paul was writing?

2.  All the believers?

3. All people for whom Christ died?

If possible, please explain your answer.

Here's the context of Ephesians 2:5

Quote

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us,God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here's how Paul begins his letter:

Quote

 

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

So it's clear who Paul is addressing.

Also note the following:

Quote

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

We were saved by grace through faith, so the salvation being spoken of in these verses is that of being born again, of receiving Christ as one's personal savior.

[Robert]

4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Samie: Who were made alive together with Christ?

.... the salvation being spoken of in these verses is that of being born again, of receiving Christ as one's personal savior.

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers

This conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

....God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19). [JS]

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

...God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.

This isn't a complete sentence.  There are dots at the beginning.  Please post the whole sentence as I'm interested in what Sequeira was referring to here.

[pnattmbtc]

My response to Samie's OP wasn't very good.  I see I misread his question.  Sorry about that.  I'll make a better response later when I have time.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This isn't a complete sentence.  There are dots at the beginning.  Please post the whole sentence as I'm interested in what Sequeira was referring to here.

The In Christ Motif

There is a key phrase that runs throughout Paul’s epistles (some 64 times).  This recurring phrase, the central theme of Paul’s theology, is the expression in Christ or in Christ Jesus.”  This phrase is sometimes expressed by other synonymous phrases, such as:  in Him, by Him, through Him, in the Beloved, together with Him, etc.  If these phrases were removed from Paul’s writings, there would be very little left of Paul’s exposition of the good news of the gospel.

That is why it is most important to understand what Paul means by the phrase “in Christ” or its equivalent.  They are the foundational words of the gospel.  Failure to understand them deprives believers of fully understanding the incredible good news of the everlasting gospel and robs them of the joy, peace, and assurance of salvation.

There is nothing we have as Christians except we have it in Christ.  Everything we enjoy and hope for as believers — the immediate and continuing joys of Justification by faith, the on-going experience of i> Sanctification, and the hope of Glorification — are ours only in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-7).  Outside of Him we have nothing but sin, condemnation, and death (Romans 5:18a; Ephesians 2:1-3).

The phrase in Christ is based on Biblical solidarity, which simply means “the many in one.”  This is what makes this phrase rather hard for the Western mind to understand, since Westerners think in terms of the individual.  However, Scripture clearly teaches that God created all mankind in one man, Adam (the word “Adam” means “mankind” in Hebrew, see Genesis 5:1-2, where the word “man” in verse 2, in most English Bibles, is “Adam” in the original; see also Acts 17:26).  In the same way, Paul refers to Christ as the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).  Like the first Adam, Christ also represented and substituted the entire human race in His work of redemption.

Consequently, when Adam sinned, it affected the entire human race in four ways:  sin, alienation, condemnation, and death.  But the incredible good news of the everlasting gospel is that, when Christ came to this world, over 2,000 years ago, He came to reverse the damage of the first Adam and redeem the entire human race.  Thus God re-wrote the history of mankind through the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, changing its legal status from condemnation unto death to justification unto life.  This is what the truth as it is in Christ is all about (Romans 5:15-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

However, in presenting the in Christ motif, the apostle Paul presents it in three phases.  The first is in the planning phase.  This took place in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, even before Adam and Eve were created (see Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8).  This planned phase encompassed all of Adam’s posterity.

The second is the reality phase, which took place over 2,000 years ago in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Ephesians 2:5, 6).  Some scholars correctly refer to this phase as the “objective” facts of the gospel.  In this phase, Christ actually obtained salvation, full and complete, for the entire human race.  This is a finished work to which we can add absolutely nothing (Romans 3:21-31).

The third and final phase is the experience phase.  Unlike the condemnation we inherit from Adam at birth, the redemption Christ accomplished on the cross for all of mankind (the reality phase) is God’s supreme gift to the world.  And, like any gift, it has to be received by faith in order for it to become effective (John 3:16; Romans 5:17).  This experience phase will continue in the life of the believers until the Second coming of Christ, when “this corruption puts on incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50-57).

It is important to note that, while the first two phases of the in Christ motif apply to the entire human race, this third experiential phase applies only to believers, those who by faith have believed in Jesus Christ and experienced the new birth.  It also applies to those who, through no fault of their own, have never heard the gospel but were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been (Romans 2:14-16; see also DA. 638; PK. 376-378).

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

The main argument that has often been used to prove that the in Christ motif applies only to believers is Romans 16:7.  In this chapter of greetings Paul makes this statement:  “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison on with me....  They were in Christ before I was” (NIV, emphasis mine).  Clearly, what Paul is implying is that these two men accepted the truth as it is in Christ and were converted before Paul himself.  To build a whole theology on this one text while ignoring all the other in Christtexts Paul uses (some 64 times) is very poor exegesis, to say the least.

Further, this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

It is here where I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19).

This is God’s supreme gift to the entire human race, made effective by faith (John 3:16; Romans 3:21-28).  I firmly believe when we Adventists fulfill this global mission we will have truly proclaimed the everlasting gospel of the three angels of Revelation 14 with the power of the fourth angel of Revelation 18.  When this is realized, it will become inexcusable for anyone to be lost.  The end will then come (Matthew 24:4).

But when we limit the in Christ motif only to its third phase, the subjective experience of salvation, we make the experience of salvation the gospel itself, rather than its application or fruits.  But since this experience is an on-going process, until the Second Advent (Romans 5:19b, note future tense; Ephesians 2:7), it turns the gospel into good advice, rather than good news, thus robbing our people of the joy, peace, and assurance of salvation, as demonstrated by the Value-Genesis survey conducted some years ago.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for posting this.  I agree with Sequeira more than BRI, by a lot.

[Samie]

On 13/01/2016 at 5:16 AM, Robert said:

The In Christ Motif

. . .

The third and final phase is the experience phase.  Unlike the condemnation we inherit from Adam at birth, the redemption Christ accomplished on the cross for all of mankind (the reality phase) is God’s supreme gift to the world.  And, like any gift, it has to be received by faith in order for it to become effective (John 3:16; Romans 5:17).  This experience phase will continue in the life of the believers until the Second coming of Christ, when “this corruption puts on incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50-57).

It is important to note that, while the first two phases of the in Christ motif apply to the entire human race, this third experiential phase applies only to believers, those who by faith have believed in Jesus Christ and experienced the new birth.  It also applies to those who, through no fault of their own, have never heard the gospel but were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been (Romans 2:14-16; see also DA. 638; PK. 376-378).

. . .

I prefer to call what JS calls the "experience phase" as the "overcoming phase".  This occurs in the present tense of salvation or the 2nd dimension of the gospel, where we are to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), and God through Christ continually justifies us (Rom 4:25) by not imputing or counting against us any sin currently committed (2 Cor 5:18, 19), this sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). In fact, God refuses to remember this sin no more (Heb 10:17).  This act of God through Christ covers all of mankind.  But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).  Believing is simply overcoming the evil of unbelief.

[Samie]

I believe that those for whom Christ died, died with Him on the cross.

 

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵ and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

We all died with Him as His Body, having been fashioned into His Body on the cross, where a new man – Christ as Head, Jews & Gentiles (humanity) as His Body – was created.

^NKJ Ephesians 2:14-16   ¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  ¹⁵ having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  ¹⁶ and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

It was upon His Body that He bore our sins on the cross:

^NKJ 1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.

Having died with Him as His Body, when God resurrected Christ the Head, His Body was likewise resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him.

 

[Samie]

And now that we are alive and each one part of His Body, we have His Power to overcome evil. And overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life.

[8thdaypriest]

When Jesus said, "This is my body", He meant that the Passover bread was to be the SYMBOL of His body, and the Passover wine (cup of redemption) was to be the SYMBOL of His blood.  Henceforth, when a believer partook of these emblems, he would "show the Lord's death".  He would demonstrate his belief in what Christ did.  

Catholics take the SYMBOL and declare it REAL.  The bread actually becomes the dead flesh of Jesus, and the wine actually becomes His blood. 

I mention this as a parallel to what Samie and Robert are teaching. 

Robert says that every human being ACTUALLY - in reality - DIED when Jesus died.  And because they died, they paid the penalty (death) for their own sins.  Jesus metaphysically incorporated every human being into Himself, so they could all pay the death penalty for their sins.   And because they were "in Christ" when He died, they all rose from the dead when Jesus was resurrected by His Father.  

I believe that Jesus won the right to REPRESENT humankind, to stand in place of humankind.   He did not actually BECOME all of humankind.   Other words used for this same principle are "bought with a price" and "paid the redemption price" for us. 

Jesus won the right to DOMINION over the entire earth.  (He won this by His perfect obedience of the Law.)  He thus won the right to represent the entire human race before the throne of God (or any individual within the human race). 

Just because Jesus "paid the price" for you, does not guarantee that Christ will finally bring you into His forever kingdom.  Why - because Christ will not force anyone into His kingdom.  He will retain for His kingdom only those who knowingly consent through belief in Christ as Savior and submission to Christ as King. 

 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

. . .

Just because Jesus "paid the price" for you, does not guarantee that Christ will finally bring you into His forever kingdom.  Why - because Christ will not force anyone into His kingdom.  He will retain for His kingdom only those who knowingly consent through belief in Christ as Savior and submission to Christ as King. 

That which God through Christ did for all of mankind does not mean He is forcing people into being ushered into the heavenly mansions. Jesus made clear that only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5), and only those whose names are found written in it will be allowed entry into the pearly gates (Rev 21:27).  Yes, God empowered all and hence all are accountable, yet only those who positively respond to the guidance of the Holy Spirit by overcoming evil with good will finally make it through the heavenly gates.

[Robert]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe that those for whom Christ died, died with Him on the cross.

Keep in mind that 2 Cor 5:14 states that when "One died, all died".  So when the son of man died, humanity died (all men)."  So Christ has universally saved the fallen race, but not all will accept this truth.  Therefore not all men will be saved.  Those who reject Christ will have to take the curse of the law.

 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Keep in mind that 2 Cor 5:14 states that when "One died, all died".  So when the son of man died, humanity died (all men)."  So Christ has universally saved the fallen race, but not all will accept this truth.  Therefore not all men will be saved.  Those who reject Christ will have to take the curse of the law.

Rejection of Christ implies the person had been presented with the message about Christ. Had the Ethiopian eunuch rejected Christ when the Holy Spirit sent him Philip to present to him the message about Christ, then the eunuch would have been overcome by the evil of rejecting Christ. But the eunuch overcame that evil.

Zechariah records of one asking the Lord about the wounds in His hands (Zech 13:6). Obviously the asker had not been aware of our Lord's crucifixion, yet He is with the Lord.  I believe there are many who upon this earth had simply lived out a life of an overcomer without having been given the opportunity of knowing about our Lord. If God decides they are among the overcomers then, just like the asker, they shall likewise be allowed entry into the heavenly gates, since their names remained written in the book of life.