The unpardonable sin

[Wingnut]

THE UNPARDONABLE SIN

People permanently rejected by God (those damned), all have one thing in common.

THEY HAVE ALL SEEN AND EXPERIENCED THE POWER OF GOD, AND HAVE REJECTED THIS.

That is what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Let me give you a comprehensive list of all those the Bible says are damned forever.

Judas, Son of Perdition, saw Christ's miracles and rejected these.
The Pharisees, same reason.  And it was a knowing rejection.  They knew these miracles were from above, not below.

King Saul, chosen of God, empowered by the Holy Spirit to even prophesy, yet let his relationship slip, and ended up going to a witch.

The slave generation of Israelites who came out of Egypt, saw God's miracles, yet built a golden calf and ascribed their deliverance to this idol.  God swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His eternal rest (Heb 3:11).

Adam - who walked and talked with God, then disobeyed, and never sought reconciliation. There is nothing more God can do which would persuade Adam to love and obey Him.

Let's have a look at Matt 13's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

This is spoken to the Pharisees who had just witnesses Christ's miracles.  They were faced with two possibilities only.  Either these paranormal events were from God or from the Devil.  They wilfully chose to ascribe them to Satan, against even what their better judgment was telling them.  They did not want to lose position and power, and they were not humble enough to submit to Christ's authority.  They had everything to lose by following Christ.  And they knew this.

Nicodemus spoke for all of the Scribes and Pharisees when he said…

John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

This ties in with Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is possible for non-believers to be "once-enlightened".  The Pharisees of Christ's day, are a case in point.  They saw the miracles, and in this way "tasted of the heavenly gift".  And they fell away, meaning deliberately and knowingly rejected Messiah.
They cannot be restored, ever, to favour with God.  

When Christ, in Matt 23, seven times pronounced "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" He was passing final judgment upon them that they were forever damned.

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

THE UNPARDONABLE SIN

People permanently rejected by God (those damned), all have one thing in common.

THEY HAVE ALL SEEN AND EXPERIENCED THE POWER OF GOD, AND HAVE REJECTED THIS.That is what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
They cannot be restored, ever, to favour with God.  

When Christ, in Matt 23, seven times pronounced "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" He was passing final judgment upon them that they were forever damned.

Lest any see their fallen condition beyond repair, that sincerely desire to to see righteous fulfillment in their lives, let us not forget that since without Christ we can do nothing, saint or sinner, it is by submission to the Holy One through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can be assured of our salvation. We are justified and redeemed by receiving the blood of Jesus Christ for the cleansing of our souls and continual growth in sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Trust in Jesus for His righteousness is without parallel for success, and the continuous receiving of the promises of God as we feed on the Word daily.

…15Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not destroy his resting place; 16For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity. 17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;…Proverbs 24

One key to spiritual success is to spend time with Jesus that you might have opportunity to know Him.

5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."….John 14

…22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'....Matthew 7

if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.…Romans 10

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."....Acts 16

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Robert]

17 hours ago, Wingnut said:

THE UNPARDONABLE SIN

The rejection of Christ.....Unbelief.

[Wingnut]

WHY IS BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT THE UNPARDONABLE SIN?

First, some think that suicide is unpardonable.  I have no idea where this nonsense idea came from.  Suicide is not unpardonable.  It is a desperate person doing something incredibly sad and stupid, which they would have seen to be so if they had survived till the bright and pleasant sun rose.  

Nowhere in the Bible is suicide in a category by itself.  Samson in a sense committed suicide.

Many can and do take God and Christ's names in vain, and are forgiven when converted. 

What makes the Holy Spirit different? Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

The Holy Spirit is the PROOF in a person's mind that something is or is not God's doing.  In Matt 12:31 Christ had been performing miracles to convince the crowd of His bona fides.  If folks rejected this proof, ask yourself, what more could Christ show them to convince them?  Ans: Nothing.  By rejecting the miracles they rejected the only evidence to be saved, and by not being saved, they were committing the unpardonable sin.  This applies to all those who saw Christ and rejected Him after seeing His miracles.  Why did Christ say woe to Chorasin, Bethsaida, Capernaum?  Because these were close to committing the unpardonable sin.  What more could Christ have shown them to convince them?  They saw the miracles that no other human ever did and attributed them to another power - thus blaspheming the Spirit.

It's not that God has to curse them.  They were cursing themselves by rejecting the only evidence for God, viz. His power as demonstrated by the Holy Spirit miracles.

Likewise, Heb 6:4-6 speaks of the same thing.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These are believers who have experienced the miracle working power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, yet through cares, or neglect, or wilful sin, have drifted from God.  What more could God offer them since He has already given them His best?  Thus they curse themselves by having rejected the only thing which could bring them back to God, viz. the blessings which His indwelling Spirit offers.

Thus, the unpardonable sin is something folks do to themselves, which makes it impossible for them to come (back) to God.  It is not anything which God does to them. The result of what goes on in the head of the blasphemer is what ultimately causes them to reject eternal life.

 

[CoAspen]

Wing...

Not quite sure what your belief is on the subject...but according to the way I read the Bible, an unpardonable sin is one that is recognized and has not been asked forgiveness of. That would be a a rejection of God until forgivness is asked. We can turn around and walk back to God. The idea that He eventually closes the door, allowing only a certain time frame...not Biblical in my reading.

[Wingnut]

6 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Wing...

Not quite sure what your belief is on the subject...but according to the way I read the Bible, an unpardonable sin is one that is recognized and has not been asked forgiveness of. That would be a a rejection of God until forgivness is asked. We can turn around and walk back to God. The idea that He eventually closes the door, allowing only a certain time frame...not Biblical in my reading.

What you say is generally true.

However there are two cases I can think of where folks, even if they seek forgiveness, will not receive it.  There is a point of no return.

The one example is Judas.  God would not forgive this.  The sin was just too great.

The other was that generation of Israelites leaving Egypt.  He swore in His wrath that they would never enter His rest.  I believe they had committed the unpardonable sin, and no amount of tears or repentance at this stage would ever make them acceptable again.  Likewise those Pharisees who knowingly put Christ to death - it's tickets for them.

God is gracious, but there are limits to that grace.  We have to stay far from exploring these limits.  That's where the fear of God comes in.

[CoAspen]

Quote

That's where the fear of God comes in.

If you are using 'fear' with the modern meaning, then we will disagree. I see no reason whatsoever to be afraid of God.

Judas, do we have an actual record of him going to God and asking forgiveness?

The Israelite's, was God saying that because He knew they would not make it or because He was really mad at them?

We often attribute our ways of thinking as Gods ways. My belief is that was the mission of Christ, to change all that fearfulness, misunderstanding, a God of retribution for every mistake that they had been taught for centuries.

God is going to get mad at this little speck of dust in the Universe and turn His back on on the true supplicant? Not a very big God, if you ask me.

Nope, don't believe it.

[Robert]

19 hours ago, Wingnut said:

However there are two cases I can think of where folks, even if they seek forgiveness, will not receive it.  There is a point of no return.

The one example is Judas.  God would not forgive this.  The sin was just too great.

Total baloney!!! 

The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of unbelief.  Other than persistent unbelief, there's no sin God will not forgive.

In fact you, Wingnut, nailed Christ to His cross.  Yes, you (and everyone else).  Human nature put Christ on His cross.  That's what human nature, given absolute power, will do.  It will try to take God off His throne and do away with Him. Don't kid yourself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,  5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away [apostatize], to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Total baloney!!! 

The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of unbelief.  Other than persistent unbelief, there's no sin God will not forgive.

In fact you, Wingnut, nailed Christ to His cross.  Yes, you (and everyone else).  Human nature put Christ on His cross.  That's what human nature, given absolute power, will do.  It will try to take God off His throne and do away with Him. Don't kid yourself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,  5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away [apostatize], to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

You should look up the word "perdition" some time.  Judas was the son of perdition.

As for the rest of your misunderstanding of what Paul wrote, I hope to address that, if I get the time, in the Paul thread.

 

[JoeMo]

It's just my opinion, but I believe that if you are worried that you have committed the unpardonable sin, then you probably haven't committed it. I'm not God, so I couldn't say whether or not Judas was irrevokably condemned for what he did.  There had to be a Judas.  He may have been the vehicle through which Christ was arrested, but your and my sins are the reason Jesus had to die.  If any of us have committed premeditated sins, have we not (at least momentarily) rejected Christ and put ourselves on the throne?

[Wingnut]

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

It's just my opinion, but I believe that if you are worried that you have committed the unpardonable sin, then you probably haven't committed it. I'm not God, so I couldn't say whether or not Judas was irrevokably condemned for what he did.  There had to be a Judas.  He may have been the vehicle through which Christ was arrested, but your and my sins are the reason Jesus had to die.  If any of us have committed premeditated sins, have we not (at least momentarily) rejected Christ and put ourselves on the throne?

I mostly agree with you JoeMo.

That said, Judas knew he had committed the unpardonable sin, and whether it worried him or not was irrelevant.  He knew he was toast.  He knew there would not be a moment of peace cut off from God and did the sensible thing of hanging himself.

[JoeMo]

Did Judas know he had committed the unpardonable sin, or did the devil just convince Judas that he had committed it?  Didn't Peter deny Christ 3 times?  How  "unpardonable" was that?

I don't think that Judas betrayed Christ out of unbelief.  I think that he truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah;and  betrayed Him to force Jesus' hand in establishing his Kingdom.  When that backfired, Judas was so upset he killed himself.

[Wingnut]

22 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Did Judas know he had committed the unpardonable sin, or did the devil just convince Judas that he had committed it?  Didn't Peter deny Christ 3 times?  How  "unpardonable" was that?

I don't think that Judas betrayed Christ out of unbelief.  I think that he truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah;and  betrayed Him to force Jesus' hand in establishing his Kingdom.  When that backfired, Judas was so upset he killed himself.

perdition

[per-dish-uh n] 

Spell Syllables

Word Origin 

noun

1.

a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.

2.

the future state of the wicked.

3.

hell (def 1).

4.

utter destruction or ruin.

5.

Obsolete. loss.

 

 

John 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Judas knew he had committed the unpardonable sin....

Supposition...speculation, but really - nonsense. 

[Wingnut]

14 hours ago, Robert said:

Supposition...speculation, but really - nonsense. 

Thanks for your usual invaluable contribution Robert.

Pity you don't have a dictionary, or the interest to look up "perdition".

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Thanks for your usual invaluable contribution Robert.

Pity you don't have a dictionary, or the interest to look up "perdition".

Think what you wish....The sin of unbelief is the only sin that can't be forgiven.  

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Did Judas know he had committed the unpardonable sin, or did the devil just convince Judas that he had committed it?  Didn't Peter deny Christ 3 times?  How  "unpardonable" was that?

I don't think that Judas betrayed Christ out of unbelief.  I think that he truly believed that Jesus was the Messiah;and  betrayed Him to force Jesus' hand in establishing his Kingdom.  When that backfired, Judas was so upset he killed himself.

I also think that Judas wanted a power Messiah.  He did not WANT a servant type Messiah. 

[8thdaypriest]

34 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Thanks for your usual invaluable contribution Robert.

Pity you don't have a dictionary, or the interest to look up "perdition".

Your sarcasm is not becoming

[8thdaypriest]

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! (NIV)

The Spirit of God touches every human being.  Some accept the influence, and allow the Spirit to change them.  Some resist. 

When a person resists to the point where he is unreachable - that is the point where he cannot be won for the kingdom.  Pharaoh resisted.  He "hardened his heart". 

The Spirit may convict of many different things, depending on when the persons live, and on what's happening around them.  The Spirit may convict a gang member that he should not sell drugs or commit murder.  The Spirit convicted the Jews that Jesus was in fact Messiah.  The Spirit may convict a person today, that the 7th Day really is God's appointed rest day.  It's not the particular individual conviction.  It's the RESPONSE, which determines the final destination. 

The "unpardonable sin" is to harden ones heart until it is no longer reachable by the Spirit of Christ. 

God doesn't use a bullhorn.  He speaks in a "still small voice". 

[Wingnut]

32 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Your sarcasm is not becoming

And this is?  "Supposition...speculation, but really - nonsense."

[Wingnut]

Believers in God's grace cannot conceive that there might be a limit to that grace.

OT foks understood "the fear of the Lord" much better than us Christians.

One can push God to the point of no return, where no amount of repentance will save you.

David's sin with Bathsheba came close.

Solomon came close.

Judas' did go beyond forgiveness.

Israelites leaving Egypt went beyond forgiveness for God to swear in His wrath they would NEVER enter His rest.  I suggest a dictionary search of "never".

The Pharisees who crucified Christ went beyond.

Baalam went beyond.

King Saul is toast etc.

[8thdaypriest]

It's not the act.  It's the condition of the heart - stone or flesh.  Stone is unreachable.  Flesh is still reachable. 

A person can be "brain dead".  We understand that.  Well - in Bible terms, a person can be "heart dead".  A person has to be "heart dead" BEFORE they commit that last sinful defiant act.

[Robert]

55 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "unpardonable sin" is to harden ones heart until it is no longer reachable by the Spirit of Christ. 

Of course to resist Christ one needs to be introduced to the gospel. All men are given light in some fashion. To resist it is to begin hardening one's heart. against one's need of Christ.

Also, if a believer apostatizes (not merely backslides) he can never be brought back to repentance because he has harden his heart beyond repair.  See Hebrews chapter 6.

[Robert]

40 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

And this is?  "Supposition...speculation, but really - nonsense."

Okay, the "nonsense" thing was a jab, but everything else was not.... 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Of course to resist Christ one needs to be introduced to the gospel. All men are given light in some fashion. To resist it is to begin hardening one's heart. against one's need of Christ.

No - against Christ Himself.

Also, if a believer apostatizes (not merely backslides) he can never be brought back to repentance because he has harden his heart beyond repair.  See Hebrews chapter 6.

That's right.  God didn't harden his heart, or cut him off because of one act.  The man himself has resisted, until he has become unreachable. 

It was Christ - the Son of God - who led Israel thru the wilderness.  They DID resist Christ.  The Spirit of Christ was "in" the prophets.  Israel resisted Christ then also.  Israel "believed" that Yahweh existed.  They "believed" that Yahweh had a law.  They did not resist because they did not believe.  They resisted because they did not WANT to obey His Law.  They wanted to do things their own way.  They refused to allow Christ to change their hearts (minds).