Why did God give us the Bible?

[joeb]

Why do you think God gave us the Bible?  Has He kept control over its messaging down through time?   Has God allowed the devil to corrupt the way the Bible portrays Him?  If He has done so why would He do something like that?  If the devil has been allowed to corrupt the Bible's message how can the Bible possibly be trusted? 

[joeb]

No takers huh?  I guess I'm not surprised, but here goes on why I think God gave us the Bible. 

What is the greatest source of wisdom in the world?  The Bible.  What is wisdom?  The Bible tells us it the fear of the Lord, or at least that is the beginning point to acquire wisdom.  The Hebrew word translated as fear in Psalm 111:10 has two meanings:  one is to be afraid, the other has the moral context of reverence.  So, one could say, and with a lot of Biblical evidence for it, that reverence for God is the beginning of wisdom.  

Why is that?   I think to understand that we need to understand what reverence is.  I have taken the following definitions from a couple of different online dictionaries:

 

Quote

a feeling of profound respect for someone or something;
         "the fear of God"; "the Chinese reverence for the dead";
         "the French treat food with gentle reverence"; "his respect
         for the law bordered on veneration"

Profound respect and esteem mingled with fear and
      affection, as for a holy being or place; the disposition
      to revere; veneration.

Reverence is a strong sentiment of respect and esteem, sometimes
          mingled slightly with fear; as, reverence for the
          divine law.

As you can see veneration is a common synonym.  What is veneration?  A short dictionary definition is: the highest degree of respect and reverence.  So, I think a good definition for the starting point for wisdom is to have the highest degree of respect and reverence for God.  How would that be expressed in our behavior and thinking on an everyday basis?  To me it means when I say I am a Christian and that I believe God is infallible, all-powerful, etc... I need to take those words into my everyday behavior and my attitude towards the Bible.  What do I mean by that?  If I read the Bible and find things in it that I have a hard time believing are true how do I react that to that?  Do I take my own opinion and exalt it to the point that I believe I am basically the arbiter of truth, or does my highest degree of respect and reverence for God allow me to set aside my prejudices and desires to the point that I give up my point of view for the Bible's point of view? 

Is it the beginning of for me to reject the plain words of the Bible and find reasons to justify my unbelief?  I don't think so.  My starting point on this subject is that I am mentally inferior to both God and devil.  Both are far, far beyond me in intellectual ability, years of study and experience, etc....  The Bible compares me to sheep.  One of the dumbest animals around.  One that cannot take care of itself, but must rely on the shepherd to protect it, lead it to water, food, etc....  If it doesn't trust its shepherd and decides that it knows more than the shepherd what happens to it?  It's end is death just as surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. 

So, if this is true, and the Bible tells me it is, what am I to do about this?  Where do I go to find out what is true?  To the shepherd, or to myself?  The Bible tells me that the devil is out to destroy me, he delights in when I suffer, and that he is the original liar.  How would he go about destroying me and making me suffer?  As a liar, the best one the universe has ever seen, he would decieve me into joining forces with him and participating in my own destruction while he laughed up his sleeve at me and my misery and self-destruction.  What chance would i have of discerning his sophistry on my own?  I don't believe I am capable of doing that.  So what would be the wise thing for me to do in this situation?  Trust the shepherd implicitly.  If he tells me something accept it without hesitation even if it disagrees with everything I have learned up to that point.  Why would I think I know better than he does?  Why would I trust in my own intellect when he has far greater intellect, experience dealing with deception, and has my best interests at heart?  

I wonder why anyone who says they are a Christian would trust their own intellect when it disagrees with the Bible.  Why would they do that?  To me the only reason I can see for doing it is that they are being led around by the nose by the devil who is laughing at them for accepting his suggestions as to how God is untrustworthy.  Once we place trust in our own intellect that is exactly what happens to us.  We are led around in circles all the while thinking we are making great progress in a straight line.  

So here is where the questions I asked at the beginning of this thread come in.  Do you really think you are the arbiter of truth?  Do you really think you disregard any part of the Bible safely?  Why would God allow deception about Him, about truth, to enter the one book that tells us about Him, the devil, and about ourselves?  Would a God who really loves you do that?  Would He really tell you the Bible is His word and then allow the devil to lead you about by the nose by allowing his sophistry to be mixed with truth?  What reason would God have to allow that?  Oh, I agree with the idea that the devil would love to corrupt the Bible and use it to mislead us about God.  But, why would an infinite God allow that?  Or do you think the devil has corrupted God's word, and that God is not capable of defending it and by extension all of humanity?  If you believe the devil has corrupted sections of the Bible how do you know which sections are corrupted?  What do you rely on to make that decision?  Feeble human intellect?  Do you really think humanity, even as a whole, is capable of outthinking either the devil or God?  Why would you think this?  Is this in itself not a very dangerous deception fraught with great peril for those who accept it?  

If you hold the point of view that you are capable of discerning deception and error in the Bible is that really the highest regard and reverence for God?  To me the answer is very obvious.  It is not.  It is the regard for your own mental abilities as greater than God's or the devil's.... 

[dgrimm60]

JOEB

GODS BIBLE  MESSAGE  is to  show  people  on this  earth  how  much  GOD cares about  us(people) and  how much  GOD  loves  us(people)

GOD  wants  every  one to  made  a decision   to  trust  HIM---love  HIM---follow  HIM

GOD  will  not  force  any  one to  do  these  things

dgrimm60

[joeb]

9 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEB

GODS BIBLE  MESSAGE  is to  show  people  on this  earth  how  much  GOD cares about  us(people) and  how much  GOD  loves  us(people)

GOD  wants  every  one to  made  a decision   to  trust  HIM---love  HIM---follow  HIM

GOD  will  not  force  any  one to  do  these  things

dgrimm60

dgrimm,

I don't disagree with what you said, but I have a question or two for you.

Is the message you reference found in the entire Bible, or only part of it?  Is the entire Bible trustworthy?  How do you know the message you're talking about in the Bible is true?  Is the wisdom you are pointing to found in worldly sources?  Does it take wisdom to understand God's message, or does accepting God's message in the Bible give wisdom to those who believe it, and by extension, do they obtain wisdom because they accept God's word at face value? 

I don't think it is possible to accept God's message about Himself as to who He is and what He is all about without first accepting the wisdom that comes from the Bible, and rejecting our own suppositions. 

[CoAspen]

Are we to be Bible worshipers or God worshipers?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hate to say this, but there are many non-Bible-reading non-Christians who live more exemplary lives than many Bible-reading Christians.

I think God gave us the Bible in order to help us connect with Him.  It's not the book itself that's important; rather, it's the relationship we forge with Christ through reading the scriptures and other inspirational books.  The Bible is an illustrated guide to life — showing us that even though we have very tangled lives, Christ is wanting to shower us with "No More Tears" detangler....

[CoAspen]

Quote

I think God gave us the Bible in order to help us connect with Him.  It's not the book itself that's important; rather, it's the relationship we forge with Christ through reading the scriptures and other inspirational books. 

That became my belief a number of years ago.

[dgrimm60]

JOEB

IF you  read   every  book  of the  bible  and can not find  GOD  AND  JESUS  ---you  are  not  reading it properly

dgrimm60

 

[dgrimm60]

COASPEN

to  understand and  truly  worship  GOD  you  need  to   read  and  understand the  bible

dgrimm60

[joeb]

1 minute ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEB

IF you  read   every  book  of the  bible  and can not find  GOD  AND  JESUS  ---you  are  not  reading it properly

dgrimm60

 

I agree that if someone reads the Bible and does not find God there is a problem, but where does that problem lie?  To me it lies in the desire to place our own ideas and suppositions above the revealed will of God, and the only place we find that is in the Bible.

[dgrimm60]

RUDYWOOFS(PAM)

there  is  a  difference  of   calling  your  self  a  Christian   and   living  a  Christian  life

if  non Christian  is   living  a  better  life  than  some  Christians   then  maybe the   person 

that  call them  self a  christian  is  not     truly    connected  to  JESUS  ---GOD the  Father---the  HOLY  SPIRIT

dgrimm60

[dgrimm60]

JOEB

  if  what  you  say  is the  case  then  it is  not  the  fault  of  the  bible  it  is the  fault  of the  person  that  is  not  reading ihe bible properly

dgrimm60

[joeb]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

Joeb, in the SOP's GC, there are  a few paragraphs about a man who felt His relationship to God was all the wisdom he needed and that the Bible was just a substitute for the Pope.. He fell into the error of making the "Spirit" trump scripture.

Thomas Munzer, the most active of the fanatics, was a man of considerable ability, which, rightly directed, would have enabled him to do good; but he had not learned the first principles of true religion. "He was possessed with a desire of reforming the world, and forgot, as all enthusiasts do, that the reformation should begin with himself."--Ibid., b. 9, ch. 8. He was ambitious to obtain position and influence, and was unwilling to be second, even to Luther. He declared that the Reformers, in substituting the authority of Scripture for that of the pope, were only establishing a different form of popery. He himself, he claimed, had been divinely commissioned to introduce the true reform. "He who possesses this spirit," said Munzer, "possesses the true faith, although he should never see the Scriptures in his life."--Ibid., b. 10, ch. 10.  {GC 191.1} 

     The fanatical teachers gave themselves up to be governed by impressions, regarding every thought and impulse as the voice of God; consequently they went to great extremes. Some even burned their Bibles, exclaiming: "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." Munzer's teaching appealed to men's desire for the marvelous, while it gratified their pride by virtually placing human ideas and opinions above the word of God. His doctrines were received by thousands. He soon denounced all order in public worship, and declared that to obey princes was to attempt to serve both God and Belial.  {GC 191.2} 

I've read this.  I've also seen this through personal experience where individuals decided that when what they believed was going to happen didn't, they abandoned the whole shooting match, the Bible, God, religion, etc.... 

We enter very dangerous spiritual territory when we think we are capable of judging the parts of the Bible that disagree with us as being false and thus messages of the devil.  At that point he is literally leading us around by the nose in circles and we are completely ignorant of the fact.

[dgrimm60]

JOEB

if  we  try to find fault  with the  bible  then  are  we not  trying to  find  fault  with  GOD the  FATHER---JESUS---the HOLY  SPIRIT

dgrimm60

[joeb]

2 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEB

  if  what  you  say  is the  case  then  it is  not  the  fault  of  the  bible  it  is the  fault  of the  person  that  is  not  reading ihe bible properly

dgrimm60

I agree.  The only way to truly understand the Bible and obtain the wisdom found only in the Bible is to set our own ideas aside and humbly accept what the Bible tells us.  Any other way of looking at the Bible is NOT giving our all-powerful God the respect and veneration He truly deserves.  Why?  Because we are saying that we ourselves are a better judge of what is true than He is, or that He is not all-powerful and is incapable of protecting His word from corruption. 

[joeb]

5 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEB

if  we  try to find fault  with the  bible  then  are  we not  trying to  find  fault  with  GOD the  FATHER---JESUS---the HOLY  SPIRIT

dgrimm60

Yes.  This is the point I have been making all along.  To reject God's word is to reject Him.

[joeb]

17 hours ago, CoAspen said:

That became my belief a number of years ago.

This is very obvious from the outside by the amount of scripture you outright reject.  Yet Jesus said that the scriptures testify of Him.  IOWs, that in the scriptures, all of them, we find out exactly who God is.  Without them, you're limited to nothing more than the shifting sands of your own ideas.  You have no Rock on which to rely.  You become your own god.

[CoAspen]

Quote

to  understand and  truly  worship  GOD  you  need  to   read  and  understand the  bible

Anyone heard of the HS? What about all the persons of history who found God w/o a Bible?

[CoAspen]

Quote

This is very obvious from the outside by the amount of scripture you outright reject.  

Again we have people 'reading' the minds of others! Wow, what a feat!!!

Assumptions......will lead you down the wrong path.

[joeb]

6 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

Anyone heard of the HS? What about all the persons of history who found God w/o a Bible?

Where do you get the idea that the HS is going to ever contradict the Bible?  The HS, the Father, and the Son all give a message that is at one with each other.  None of them contradict either of the other two.  The only source that ever sends out messages contracting the Bible is the devil.

[joeb]

4 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

Again we have people 'reading' the minds of others! Wow, what a feat!!!

Assumptions......will lead you down the wrong path.

I've seen you contradict scripture here time and time again.  I'll give you one instance I can remember very well off the top of my head.  Remember the thread on Ecclesiastes 1:9?  It plainly states that everything that is now has been and that there is nothing new under the sun.  You, and most of the members of this forum, denied the truth of that text over and over again. 

You claimed that I insulted God because we were given the gift of creativity.  Yet, the truth comes directly from the plain word of God. 

[CoAspen]

joeb,

You are having great difficulty in reading the posts and instead start making assumption. You have not answered my questions but rather start accusations. You want people to believe you have any truth to impart...really?

1. I never said the HS contradicts the Bible, it, the HS, is the source of our guidance and understanding.

2. How did people learn about God before there was a Bible?

3. Context, context, context. Text splatter means little other than how people choose to interpret them.

4. I trust God, Christ and the HS for guidance. The Bible gives me a written knowledge about them, the Trinity, written my humans.

5. Don't go down the path that the Bible only contains the truth that we are to live by. Much took place in Bible history that we know is not what God wants for us. If all the truth is there, then it is static and no different than ancient Gods.

[joeb]

16 hours ago, CoAspen said:

joeb,

You are having great difficulty in reading the posts and instead start making assumption. You have not answered my questions but rather start accusations. You want people to believe you have any truth to impart...really?

1. I never said the HS contradicts the Bible, it, the HS, is the source of our guidance and understanding.

2. How did people learn about God before there was a Bible?

3. Context, context, context. Text splatter means little other than how people choose to interpret them.

4. I trust God, Christ and the HS for guidance. The Bible gives me a written knowledge about them, the Trinity, written my humans.

5. Don't go down the path that the Bible only contains the truth that we are to live by. Much took place in Bible history that we know is not what God wants for us. If all the truth is there, then it is static and no different than ancient Gods.

Then why the accusation about worshipping the Bible instead of God?

How did Adam learn about God?  From God and His angels.  Second, it wasn't until a few centuries after the flood that man's ability to memorize and retain information had been degraded enough by sin that anyone felt the need for a written language.  Until then all information was passed from generation-to-generation, person-to-person, and reliably so, orally.  The fact that it wasn't written down in one location doesn't mean the truth wasn't known.  Look at what God told the Isrealites:  Remember the Sabbath day, and He said BEFORE Sanai.  He also said about Abraham that He knew Abraham would keep His laws and instruct his family to follow God.  He couldn't say that if a reliable knowledge of the law of God had not been passed on to Abraham.

Our situation is far different today than it was pre-flood and early post-flood.  The truth about God must be written down for us to have a reliable source to go to inform us about God.  We, as a race, no longer have the mental capability to remember all of this.  We must have it in written form.

If you really trust the Bible, and the Father, Son, and HS, why do you deny the truth of Ecclesiastes 1:9?  There's a huge dichotomy between that claim and the reality.

Your 5th claim is ludicrous.  Sin exists so we shouldn't trust the Bible alone to inform us about God?  Really?  What do we use as a source to inform our opinions?  Our own opinion?  Our own opinions have far more reliability than the written word of God?  Like I said, ludicrous.  We are to use scripture to inform our opinions, not the other way around. 

I'll give you Biblical example of this.  The Pharisees and Sadducees claimed to believe in the Torah but they placed a far higher reliance on their opinions than on the Torah.  What did it lead to?  The rejection and murder of Jesus.  Had they actually acted in accordance with what they claimed they believed, trusted the Torah implicitly, they would have never murdered Jesus.  This is the kind of dangerous territory we get into when we start trusting our own opinions and NOT placing 100% trust in the word of God.  

Lastly, I'm at least glad to see you have enough sense of decency not to deny your rejection of Ecclesiates 1:9, but, that instance alone is the proof of your rejection of scripture for your own opinion.....  I've seen other times you have done so but my memory is far more hazy on this instances.  I especially remember this instance because you were joined in your rejection of scripture by someone who claims to be an SDA pastor.  I'm not saying that person isn't, just that an internet personna can easily make claims that are not true and I have no way of verifying that person's real identity.  

I've also seen you argue repeatedly for evolution in the forum dedicated to origins.  To claim that you can argue for evolution and yet not be rejecting scripture is something I find very strange indeed.

[joeb]

In addition to my last post.... The idea that we can reliably trust our opinions and experience is rooted in the idea that we are mentally capable of outthinking the devil.  We are not.  We are so far below him in mental capability that we have no possibility of discerning his deceptions outside of the word of God.  This is one of the major reasons God gave us the Bible.  Think about this:  Adam and Eve, in a state of perfection and with no degradation of their mental capabilities through sin were decieved into distrusting God.  They used 100% of their brain.  We modern humans use, maybe, if we're in the 90th percentile and above of the the human race in intellectual capability, about 10% of our brain.   We are mentally retarded compared to Adam and Eve, and yet they were decieved.  What makes any of you think you're more capable than they were of discerning the devil's deceptions? 

I place 100% of my trust in the Bible for any ability that I have to discern the devil's sophistries.  I set aside all my own opinions and look to God and His word for this ability.  It's my only hope.  It's the only hope any of us have. 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

regarding Ecclesiastes 1:9 ("That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done.  So there is nothing new under the sun.")

CoAspen referred to "creativity" in conjunction with that text.  He is right, in that there are many specific things that *are* new... (I don't recall Judas using a calculator in the Bible, or the Romans watching gladiator games on television in the history books. )  On the other hand, *creativity* itself is not new.  Medical and scientific research is not new.  But the things that are created or discovered *are* new to us.

I may be wrong, but that's what I understood CoAspen's remarks to be referring to.