Why did God give us the Bible?

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/18/2016 at 6:08 PM, CoAspen said:

Are we to be Bible worshipers or God worshipers?

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.…...Genesis 1

 

1In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2He existed in the beginning with God. 3God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

4The Word gave life to everything that was created,^a and his life brought light to everyone. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.^b

6God sent a man, John the Baptist,^c 7to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light.

9The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

10He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave

the right to become children of God. 13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

14So the Word became human^d and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.^e And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son....John 1

I would say the Word.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  Hope you have a

 

[CoAspen]

joeb,

This will be my last words on the subject, you are still caught up in your world of assumptions.

I am a creationist. That means I believe God started life as we know it. I do not limit God, what ever type of power HE/SHE may be. I only need to look at the universe to understand my knowledge is severely limited at best. I have long given up trying to tell others what to believe. I leave it up to God and the person. 

The Bible is a guide book to God, not the God. I do not worship the Bible.

adios,

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote

I think God gave us the Bible in order to help us connect with Him.  It's not the book itself that's important; rather, it's the relationship we forge with Christ through reading the scriptures and other inspirational books.

On February 18, 2016 at 0:44 AM, CoAspen said:

That became my belief a number of years ago.

Jesus made that point quite emphatically when confronting the Jewish leaders - "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.  These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

A huge part of the problem that He saw and confronted was their interpretation of Scripture.  And not much as changed today.  Don't confuse disagreement with an interpretation of Scripture as being a rejection of the Scripture itself, or more importantly  a rejection of the One of whom it testifies.  

 

[Tom Wetmore]

A case in point is the fallacious dispute over Ecclesiastes 1:9.  It takes very little to see that there is indeed many new things, ideas, etc. that have come about since those words were written.  So one should consider that taking a dogmatic literal interpretation of that text may be wrong.  It may just mean something quite different or be talking about something quite different than one assumes.  

Context.    What is Solomon's opening line? It is something he repeats a number of times.  "Everything is meaningless."  Meaningless, futile, in vain.  The metaphor of choice repeated often in the book - It is all just "chasing after the wind".  What does all that effort accomplish for you?  Nothing.  And so it has been since the beginning of time.   And so shall it be until the end of time.  Time passes. People live. People die.  All their efforts in that short time between get them nowhere different than has the effort of all of humanity before them. They work hard, live right and still they die, vanish, even disappear from memory.  In that endless cycle of the march of time, history just keeps repeating that same exercise in futility.  Nothing new under the sun...  

[Tom Wetmore]

This topic reminds me of a prolonged and somewhat impassioned previous discussion of whether we would have the Bible in heaven.  For some it seemed unthinkable that such a holy icon of our faith would not go with us to heaven.

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said:

They work hard, live right and still they die, vanish, even disappear from memory.  In that endless cycle of the march of time, history just keeps repeating that same exercise in futility.  Nothing new under the sun...  

Unless, of course, we choose to believe the promise given to the born again believer.

…25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

.....John 11

…6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."…John 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[joeb]

On 2/19/2016 at 2:49 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

regarding Ecclesiastes 1:9 ("That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done.  So there is nothing new under the sun.")

CoAspen referred to "creativity" in conjunction with that text.  He is right, in that there are many specific things that *are* new... (I don't recall Judas using a calculator in the Bible, or the Romans watching gladiator games on television in the history books. )  On the other hand, *creativity* itself is not new.  Medical and scientific research is not new.  But the things that are created or discovered *are* new to us.

I may be wrong, but that's what I understood CoAspen's remarks to be referring to.

Ummm....  Let's look at this claim.  Who invented the first computing device?  God, when He created the brain.  All human computing is based upon what we have discovered from studying our own brains.  So who was the original?  God.  Are current computing devices something new?  No.  They are merely humans following the path that God originally laid out.  The same goes for all human "discoveries/inventions".  They are not original territory.  God beat us there by millenia in every field of science....   He just left a trail of bread crumbs for us to follow.  Just because something is new to you or me doesn't mean it is original.  Just because you or I, or some other human being can come up with a technology that humanity hasn't always understood doesn't mean that technology didn't already exist.  The fact that we have had to study creation to learn about all these things tells automatically that nothing that we do is new.  It has already been done. 

Humanities "greatest discoveries":  flight, electricity, pharmaceuticals, nuclear power, space travel, computing, radio waves, etc.....  Ask yourself if God hadn't already been making use of the principles that these things rest upon far in advance of humanity.  Where has humanity "invented" any of these things before God did?  In what area of study has man beaten God to the punch?  In none of them.  We have learned much of what we know about all of these things by studying what God has created.  How does that make us anything other than someone who copies what someone else invented?

[Tom Wetmore]

Missing the point...  

Do you apply the same absolutist and literalist interpretation to Solomon's declaration that everything is meaningless?

[joeb]

On 2/20/2016 at 8:29 PM, CoAspen said:

joeb,

This will be my last words on the subject, you are still caught up in your world of assumptions.

I am a creationist. That means I believe God started life as we know it. I do not limit God, what ever type of power HE/SHE may be. I only need to look at the universe to understand my knowledge is severely limited at best. I have long given up trying to tell others what to believe. I leave it up to God and the person. 

The Bible is a guide book to God, not the God. I do not worship the Bible.

adios,

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but when you argue against the Bible's story of creation you are rejecting the Bible's account of creation, and thus the word of God that tells us how we came into being. 

It's also interesting that you think that to accept the expressed word of God is to limit Him.  That is logic so twisted I find it impossible to follow.  It's like having a parent tell you not to touch the burner on the kitchen range and your response is, I'm not going to accept that because to do so is to limit my parent.... 

[joeb]

5 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Missing the point...  

Do you apply the same absolutist and literalist interpretation to Solomon's declaration that everything is meaningless?

I see.  You also set yourself up as someone who is wiser than Solomon, whom God gave a great degree of wisdom and understanding.  Why do I say that?  Because you look at what Solomon said and deny his conclusions.  I, on the other hand, accept that he was far wiser and smarter than I am.  I humble myself and acknowledge that I am not, and cannot be without God granting me the same exact gifts He gave Solomon, Solomon's equal in intellectual matters and in understanding what things mean(wisdom). 

And, in addition, I have found through life experience and observing others, that Solomon is correct in almost all aspects.  In those things I have not found to be absolutely true through experience and observation I accept the word of God as being greater than I. 

 

[joeb]

3 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Unless, of course, we choose to believe the promise given to the born again believer.

…25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

.....John 11

…6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."…John 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

Two things.  What part of the plan of salvation did humanity create?  We are told that God set up the plan of salvation before He created us.  So, the plan of salvation was very possibly many millenia old by the time we, humanity, came into existence. So, how are Solomon's words in conflict with this?  They are not, as the plan of salvation was already "old" and nothing new, even here on earth, when Solomon lived....

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

Two things.  What part of the plan of salvation did humanity create?  We are told that God set up the plan of salvation before He created us.  So, the plan of salvation was very possibly many millenia old by the time we, humanity, came into existence. So, how are Solomon's words in conflict with this?  They are not, as the plan of salvation was already "old" and nothing new, even here on earth, when Solomon lived....

I haven't found where it says the plan of salvation was set up before sin entered the world, although God knowing what man would do with his freedom of choice could be looked at as handling problems by setting up contingency plans before the fact. Personally I'm of the opinion the wisdom of God is far beyond my limited attempt to figure out His plans, except through the power of the Holy Spirit, and then He gives that which He knows we need and that which we can handle.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it....1 Corinthians 10

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Tom Wetmore]

4 hours ago, joeb said:

I see.  You also set yourself up as someone who is wiser than Solomon, whom God gave a great degree of wisdom and understanding.  Why do I say that?  Because you look at what Solomon said and deny his conclusions.  I, on the other hand, accept that he was far wiser and smarter than I am.  I humble myself and acknowledge that I am not, and cannot be without God granting me the same exact gifts He gave Solomon, Solomon's equal in intellectual matters and in understanding what things mean(wisdom). 

And, in addition, I have found through life experience and observing others, that Solomon is correct in almost all aspects.  In those things I have not found to be absolutely true through experience and observation I accept the word of God as being greater than I. 

 

Why do you say such things?  How do you reach a conclusion that  I think I am wiser than Solomon simply by reading and repeating what he said with some attempt to understand it and make sense of it? Really, who here  is denying his conclusions?  What makes you think your interpretation is the only possible and correct understanding of what he said?  And what makes you so certain that my reading of it is so wrong that you think I am denying what he said?

[Aliensanctuary]

I see the Bible as a compilation of God's dealings with man, our past, present,and future. The Scriptures main purpose is to help us understand what the Kingdom of God is and what we must do in order to become a part of it.

[joeb]

On 2/25/2016 at 9:20 PM, Tom Wetmore said:

Why do you say such things?  How do you reach a conclusion that  I think I am wiser than Solomon simply by reading and repeating what he said with some attempt to understand it and make sense of it? Really, who here  is denying his conclusions?  What makes you think your interpretation is the only possible and correct understanding of what he said?  And what makes you so certain that my reading of it is so wrong that you think I am denying what he said?

When you start saying things like your comment that I originally replied to your contempt for simply taking God's word as it reads is very apparent.  Your description of  my doing so is very highly negative, so the conclusion I am led to is that your attitude toward the simple word of God is that you are above it and must apply your special wisdom to it.  Another example is your support for CoAspen supporting millions of years of evolution rather than the simple story of creation the Bible tells by saying CoAspen's stand is simply "interpretation".  It isn't.  It is the flat out rejection of the Bible telling us what happened during the creation week when God spoke lifeforms on earth into existence.  The Bible doesn't say He spoke and then later the fish, animals and birds appeared.  It says they appeared instantaneously and by the end of 6 days man, the crowning work of creation here on earth, was here in mature form.  To say that it didn't happen in 6 literal days is to dispute the Bible.   

When Solomon points out the meaninglessness of life he is doing us a favor.  It is much wiser to accept the Bible at it's literal word than attempt to "refine" it's meaning and come to conclusions other than that which the plain word would lead us to.  The only time to see figurative meanings is where the wording is plainly figurative such as in Biblical prophecy.    God put Solomon's writings in the Bible for a reason, and God's lessons aren't always clear to us immediately, but when they aren't it isn't safe to believe other than the plain, simple words of scripture.  Any time we don't we open ourselves up to being led around by the nose by the devil.  Never, never assume you are capable of discerning his deceptions outside of the plain word of God.  Only in it can we find the wisdom to recognize deception.  It's like David says, Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.  David doesn't say, my interpretation of God's word is a lamp and light for me.... 

[joeb]

On 2/25/2016 at 8:45 PM, LifeHiscost said:

I haven't found where it says the plan of salvation was set up before sin entered the world, although God knowing what man would do with his freedom of choice could be looked at as handling problems by setting up contingency plans before the fact. Personally I'm of the opinion the wisdom of God is far beyond my limited attempt to figure out His plans, except through the power of the Holy Spirit, and then He gives that which He knows we need and that which we can handle.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it....1 Corinthians 10

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

Search for the phrase "foundation of the world" in the KJV.  In the NT the Greek word which is translated as world is "kosmos".  In English it is cosmos.  The Greek word translated as foundation means founding or, figuratively, conception.  The Hebrew is very similar in meaning but it doesn't have the implication universe found in the Greek, at least according to Strong's.  So, 1Peter 1:20 means Christ was foreordained as our Saviour before the founding, or conception, of the world, or even the universe.... 

[Tom Wetmore]

4 hours ago, joeb said:

When you start saying things like your comment that I originally replied to your contempt for simply taking God's word as it reads is very apparent.  Your description of  my doing so is very highly negative, so the conclusion I am led to is that your attitude toward the simple word of God is that you are above it and must apply your special wisdom to it.....

The degree to which you obviously misread, misunderstand and misrepresent what I have  posted really is astounding!  My point is so completely missed that I see no point in even trying to engage you further.  It really would be a waste of time.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ironically the author of Ecclesiastes may have been the first person to have written the line "There is nothing new under the sun."

[CoAspen]

I take it some would discount the many stories of individuals finding and worshiping God without ever having seen a Bible, but were lead by the HS.

As has been pointed out, by Christ Himself, the Jewish Religious leaders knew the scriptures forwards and backwards, but still failed to see Him.

I would suggest that reading of scriptures or studying them is not a guarantee of learning/knowing God. But that it is the guidance of the HS that brings us to understanding.

The Jewish religious leaders worshiped the words not the person. Without an experiential relationship the parchment and ink have no saving value.
 

[CoAspen]

When we speak about 'needing' the Bible, which one are talking about? Which set of scriptures? They have been changes since the beginning of collecting. To suggest the Bible of today as being the one, has issues with that assumption because of what that means about persons of the past. What did the peoples of the OT rely on, the oral history, the prophets, priests, etc? We are actually talking about 'words' with different meanings in different times. Those words were meant to lead peoples minds and thoughts to God. That is who they were to worship.

[dgrimm60]

COASPEN

maybe  i  needed  to  add  that   we  need  the  guidance  of  the  HOLY SPIRIT  as we  read  the  HOLY  BIBLE  of 

GOD THE  FATHER---GOD  THE  SON --GOD  THE  HOLY  SPIRIT  so  we (created human beings) can  have  a  true

relationship and true  worship

dgrimm60

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/24/2016 at 9:36 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

Jesus made that point quite emphatically when confronting the Jewish leaders - "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.  These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

A huge part of the problem that He saw and confronted was their interpretation of Scripture.  And not much as changed today.  Don't confuse disagreement with an interpretation of Scripture as being a rejection of the Scripture itself, or more importantly  a rejection of the One of whom it testifies.  

 

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Testimony to reveal the power of the Word.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!       

[joeb]

I will post an answer to many of the posts addressed to me.  As most of them are related it will be a post addressed to the issues, not individual's posts.  I simply don't the time at present to write such a long post. 

[joeb]

On 3/3/2016 at 11:11 PM, jackson said:

As a Christian you trust that God has preserved the Bible throughout history, and it is an accurate record of the history of man, an outline of God's will for man, and an explanation of the gospel wrought out by His son Jesus.

It is our constitution, and as such all doctrines, traditions, suppositions and even   the leadings of the "Spirit" are to be tested by it.

The problem with what I quoted, and I do agree with you, is that many Christians no longer have the faith in God that will allow them to trust God's ability to preserve the Bible.  As a result the Bible is no longer a part of their spiritual constitution.  They place a much greater belief in man's skepticism and the power of the devil than they do in God.   They also place much greater credence in man's reasoning than it God's power, wisdom, and love for fallen humanity.  To them it is outside the realm of possibility that God could possibly have protected/preserved the Bible. 

To you and me it is logical and prudent to put our trust in God.  To them it is illogical and irrational to place that kind of trust in God.  For myself, He has done so much in my life that I have no doubt in His word or His power. 

[CoAspen]

I would agree that what God wanted, is preserved in the Bible. However......we do have the HS for guidance in understanding and that understanding can change because we are humans, flawed, not always being on the same wave length as the HS. The basics are in the Bible, not the details for everything in life. We use the basics in an ever changing world to make decisions with guidance of the HS. Basics = principles. 

AS always, there are some who believe in following word for word vs the message/principle. That is where the issues begin. I see the Bible as dynamic not a static book because it endeavors to put us in contact with the author.